Tre White - Best in the League?

[Mr. WEO]

24 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

White is critical to way the whole scheme operates. If you don't have White able to match up 1 on 1 you can't play the cover 3 McDermott wants to play and you end up in more of a tampa 2 shell. We have seen - think early in 2018 - that when this team gets in a rut defensively it generally comes in the Tampa 2 where they can't get the extra guy down in the box. The stuff the Bills do with their coverage is as advanced as anyone in the league. They are pretty vanilla up front and extremely complex on the backend. So for this team, losing the best guy out of that secondary.... yea..  I think it would be in the region of a touchdown per game. Because it isn't just the drop off from White to Wallace or White to Norman. It is the drop off from a defense that has its who defensive call sheet available to one that suddenly loses half of it. 

I appreciate the thoughtful analysis.  But I’m going to agree to disagree.  No one D player is 7 ppg for a  season swing.  

[Call_Of_Ktulu]

31 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

This is also a very good point. White has been the epitome of their process. Come in, got his head down, worked, developed. He was the first pick of the regime. If they don't reward that the message it sends to Allen and Edmunds and Oliver and Dawkins and Milano and Singletary and the rest is not a great one. Buffalo is never going to be seen as a go to FA destination. So we need it to be a place that our good draft picks want to stay in because they feel they will be valued. 

So we need to overpay a zone CB to send a message to other players? If we pay White 100 mil and Allen 130 mil how the hell do we sign any of those other players. I would rather keep Edmunds, Oliver and Milano over paying a zone CB a astronomical contract. Cover LB like Edmunds and Milano are hard to find, DT’s that can rush the passer and blow up running lanes are hard to find. Finding a solid/good zone CB, not that hard to find.

[GoBills808]

Milano lmao

 

 

[billsfan89]

Arguably, Who is better than him? Gilmore and Ramsey are the only ones in the conversation really, maybe there is one other more unsung guy in there but Tre has been at a Pro-Bowl level since his rookie year and took a massive leap last year to being one of the top corners in the league. I can't think of a zone corner that is better than him for sure (Gilmore and Ramsey are man to man corners.) I think Tre is going to be worth every penny we pay him. 

[K-9]

This “zone corner” bs is utterly ill informed. 

[Call_Of_Ktulu]

1 minute ago, K-9 said:

This “zone corner” bs is utterly ill informed. 

Gilmore follows the other teams best WR all over the field and shuts him down. White on the other hand said when Hopkins lines up on the left side I have to shut him down. I think White went up against Hopkins 65% of the snaps.  If I’m paying a CB over 80 mil I expect you to take the other teams best WR out of the game plan. What is the ill informed? White plays majority of the snaps on the left side. If Hopkins moves to the right side our 100 mil $$$ CB is covering a scrub.

[Hardhatharry]

8 hours ago, jrober38 said:

 

Why not?

 

What if he blows his knee out?

 

Zeke Elliott held out all last summer (after his 3rd year) because he wanted an extension.

 

The risk/reward of getting a couple mil extra or suffering a major injury that drastically reduces his earning potential seems like a no brainer for both sides. 

Well we should wait to see if he blows out a knee then. Don't want to extend him early if he might blow out his knee.

Edited April 17, 2020 by Hardhatharry

[K-9]

4 minutes ago, Call_Of_Ktulu said:

Gilmore follows the other teams best WR all over the field and shuts him down. White on the other hand said when Hopkins lines up on the left side I have to shut him down. I think White went up against Hopkins 65% of the snaps.  If I’m paying a CB over 80 mil I expect you to take the other teams best WR out of the game plan. What is the ill informed? White plays majority of the snaps on the left side. If Hopkins moves to the right side our 100 mil $$$ CB is covering a scrub.

What’s ill-informed is that White is a very good man corner as well. It’s unfair to hold scheme assignment against him in that regard. 

[papazoid]

according to a panel of 50 voters he's an AP  ALL PRO Starter = Top 2

Edited April 17, 2020 by papazoid

[krf139]

4 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

On one hand I want to post the easy response to this absolute layup, but on the other hand why should I need to?

Why is it a "layup."  Hopkins gashed him.  If he wants to be the best, he has to perform on the biggest stage.  Period.  We just aren't used to winning around here so we let things like this slide to fit our overall narrative.  

[Nelius]

Top 3 easy, with potential to be number 1. Saw that some found a top-3 designation questionable and I'm very curious who has been as consistently good as Tre the past few years? Gilmore definitely, but beyond that it's tough. It surely isn't Ramsey at this point. I guess an argument could be made for Marcus Peters? The more I think about it, outside of Gilmore and Tre the top CBs have been a rotating cast these past few years so I'm kind of surprised this is even a debate.

[Stank_Nasty]

14 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Nah. No way I am letting Tre walk. He is the closest the Bills have had to the best at his position in the league since Peters walked. They are the guys you keep. 

Not only that but let’s add, on top of of this, that he seems to make all his plays in the CLUTCH. 
 

Rookie year he essentially wins the Bucs game with a strip and recovery. He seals the KC game with a pick. 
 

Last season he turned around or closed out 3 games for them. That’s MASSIVE. he seals a win vs cincy with a pick. He single handedly turned around the fins game with a HUGE pick at the 2yd line and then a strip the very next drive. And let’s toss in the 4th quarter int that ignited the comeback win in PITT. 
 

Some guys just show up in those moments. Those are the ones you shouldn’t have a problem paying. 

Edited April 17, 2020 by Stank_Nasty

[K-9]

50 minutes ago, papazoid said:

according to a panel of 50 voters he's an AP  ALL PRO Starter = Top 2

But, but, but PFF doesn’t think so. 

[Stank_Nasty]

6 minutes ago, K-9 said:

But, but, but PFF doesn’t think so. 

White finishing out this year as their 19 ranked corner was the the final nail in my own personal PFF coffin.... before that I still at least checked out their stuff now and again. That ranking has painted them as a complete joke IMO. 

Edited April 17, 2020 by Stank_Nasty

[GoBills808]

12 minutes ago, Stank_Nasty said:

Not only is that but let’s add, on top of of this, that he seems to make all his plays in the CLUTCH. 
 

Rookie year he essentially wins the Bucs game with a strip and recovery. He seals the KC game with a pick. 
 

Last season he turned around or closed out 3 games for them. That’s MASSIVE. he seals a win vs cincy with a pick. He single handedly turned around the fins game with a HUGE pick at the 2yd line and then a strip the very next drive. And let’s toss in the 4th quarter int that ignited the comeback win in PITT. 
 

Some guys just show up in those moments. Those are the ones you shouldn’t have a problem paying. 

He also made a huge stop in the backfield, injured himself, came back in and almost won that game (the biggest game of the year up to that point) singlehandedly.

 

White makes big plays. Anyone who wants to pay Milano before him lmfao good luck with that

[Happy]

3 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

White is critical to way the whole scheme operates. If you don't have White able to match up 1 on 1 you can't play the cover 3 McDermott wants to play and you end up in more of a tampa 2 shell. We have seen - think early in 2018 - that when this team gets in a rut defensively it generally comes in the Tampa 2 where they can't get the extra guy down in the box. The stuff the Bills do with their coverage is as advanced as anyone in the league. They are pretty vanilla up front and extremely complex on the backend. So for this team, losing the best guy out of that secondary.... yea..  I think it would be in the region of a touchdown per game. Because it isn't just the drop off from White to Wallace or White to Norman. It is the drop off from a defense that has its who defensive call sheet available to one that suddenly loses half of it. 

 

The bold is a big problem.  Putting pressure on the opposing offense backfield goes a long way to helping out our defensive backfield.  I really don't understand the desire to go vanilla up front, though I do get the complexities in back such as disguising coverages which is a smart tactic.  Supplement what you're doing in back with an aggressive front; you'll have the #1 ranked defense, then.  You'll only be so good being DB-centric; you can't out cover the receivers to win in the NFL today, though it seems McD wants to do just that.

[BruceVilanch]

13 hours ago, Happy Gilmore said:

 

Good zone CB, but is too susceptible in getting beat during man to man coverage.  I don't think that is worth elite money.  Put more money and resources into the d-line that will get after the QB in a more consistent manner, then you won't need to overpay a DB.

Interesting take, are you essentially saying the pass rush outweighs good coverage because effective pass rush creates bad throws and sacks thus leading to more turnovers? And what makes you say he is only "good" in zone? I am not asking that in a rude way I just honestly want to hear your take and why he's not great in your opinion.

[Happy]

52 minutes ago, BruceVilanch said:

Interesting take, are you essentially saying the pass rush outweighs good coverage because effective pass rush creates bad throws and sacks thus leading to more turnovers? And what makes you say he is only "good" in zone? I am not asking that in a rude way I just honestly want to hear your take and why he's not great in your opinion.

 

I would rather have a defense that is more line focused since that tends to put more pressure on the QB, who will get rid of the ball before he wants to as well as make errant throws.  Playing a largely vanilla front and relying on coverage will only do so much since the NFL favors the offense (more defensive PI flags); you ultimately should do both - an aggressive, attacking front and disguised coverages in the back.  I don't agree with a DB-focused defensive scheme.

 

Personally, I don't think it makes sense to pay a DB big money, but would rather allocate resources to the d-line, first.  If you pay Tre $16M per season, what are you going to sacrifice to do so?  The other DB's?  D-line?  LB?   I'd rather have higher paid/better DE's and DT's as they will make an average backfield look good.  I've seen Tre get beat by a number of receivers in man coverage enough to think twice about paying him elite money.  His big plays have been in zone situations, and I think he tends to struggle in man coverage with a lot of field behind him.  In shorter field situations, Tre seems to be better in man coverage, which could explain him not giving up a TD.  Other posters have pointed out that all CB's get beat, which I agree with; paying a CB big money doesn't make sense and I don't see it as a premium position...not in today's NFL.

Edited April 17, 2020 by Happy Gilmore

[Royale with Cheese]

4 hours ago, Call_Of_Ktulu said:

So we need to overpay a zone CB to send a message to other players? If we pay White 100 mil and Allen 130 mil how the hell do we sign any of those other players. I would rather keep Edmunds, Oliver and Milano over paying a zone CB a astronomical contract. Cover LB like Edmunds and Milano are hard to find, DT’s that can rush the passer and blow up running lanes are hard to find. Finding a solid/good zone CB, not that hard to find.

 

$100 million for White?  That would put it right now at $23 million higher than the current highest CB contract.

 

Teams who manage the cap well will find ways to pay QB's and other star players.  

 

And no, "it's not that hard  to find" good/solid zone CB's.  Since Tre White has started, the corners opposite of him have been Levi Wallace, EJ Gaines, Kevin Thomas, Shareece Wright, Phillip Gaines and Ryan Lewis.  Yep...not that hard.

 

White is a playmaker, our best defensive player and a problem for opposing offenses...you pay that man.

[GoBills808]

2 hours ago, Happy Gilmore said:

 

The bold is a big problem.  Putting pressure on the opposing offense backfield goes a long way to helping out our defensive backfield.  I really don't understand the desire to go vanilla up front, though I do get the complexities in back such as disguising coverages which is a smart tactic.  Supplement what you're doing in back with an aggressive front; you'll have the #1 ranked defense, then.  You'll only be so good being DB-centric; you can't out cover the receivers to win in the NFL today, though it seems McD wants to do just that.

It's actually a function of the overall defense and not a problem at all. A 'simple' defensive line scheme allows our LBs to read assignments quickly re:gap vs rush and keeps underneath clean on pass downs. 

 

The defense is only DB-centric because we picked up Hyde/Poyer. There's more talent right now in the secondary, which is why McDermott leans on it more than the other units. But he's always going to find pieces that work and plug them in and adjust accordingly. It's not as if his defenses were always predicated on a strong secondary...he got NFL starter-level play out of Tre Boston and Bene Benwickerie for christsake. Historically, McD has needed 3 things to run a top defense- a Pro Bowl level corner, a crazy athletic MLB, and a 1tech DT willing to play gap control. The rest he can adjust scheme to fit pieces.