and the Layoffs begin @ Pegula Sports

[oldmanfan]

Pegulas aren’t moving the teams anywhere, and while I wish they would keep folks on payroll I don’t have insight into their finances to comment on that.  Having a ton of money doesn’t mean tough decisions aren’t made; my daughter works at both Universal Studios and Disney World and is back home with us until things get started up again.

 

He’s hired hockey folks that haven’t done the job.  I hope Kruger is the guy; definitely a process guy like his Bills counterpart.

[Mr. WEO]

4 hours ago, Doc said:

 

No the Sabres aren't a charity.  But the Pegulas aren't crying poverty either thanks, at least, to the Bills.  Hockey is Terry's true passion and he's not going to sell the team after 1 money-losing season, if ever, as long as PSE is making money.  And as GBiD said below, Terry literally said that if he needed more money, he'd drill another well. 

 

The "most obvious scenario"?  No, it's not obvious that the Bills had no idea who Brandon Beane was before hiring McD.  According to this article, there was no plan to have the two come together and Beane was on NFL radars at the latest earlier that year when he interviewed with the 49'ers.

 

 

Maybe for those who are mostly Sabres fans.  For Bills fans, saving the Bills (I think that Golisano would still own the team if Terry hadn't come around) means his bloom will never be off.  Even more so now that the team is making the playoffs.

 

 

Yup. 

 

He can't "drill another well"..  He was a fracker, and that business has cratered.  Even if he wanted to drill oil, that business is belly up right now.

 

The article said they weren't to be hired together.  Well that's obvious as they hired McD before they hired Beane.  No living soul believed that, once McD was HC, they were going to hire Brian Gaine, Trey Brown or "Brian Gutekunst".  

 

Ok, maybe one person believes this......

 

 

5 hours ago, boater said:

Wowzer. There are many misconceptions about rich people in this thread. (disclaimer: I am not rich, but I do know some) Maybe that's a Buffalo thing.

 

In regard to the Sabres, Kim is no better and no worse than any other team President. Their current predicament is a result of the the utter lack of any available executive talent in the NHL.Botteril and what's-his-name were the only names from a an extremely shallow pool to draw from. We're paying the price.

 

Also, they aren't selling the Sabres. They have an integrated investment in downtown Buffalo real estate. The Sabres are a key piece to that. They aren't selling.

 

Being deep pocket billionaires: with the Arabs flooding the market with cheap oil combined with the current lockdown economy, Pegs mineral riches are deeply gouged. They have to be as thrifty with every dollar as Joe Schmoe on the street. That includes layoffs.

 

If it weren't for the Pegulas we wouldn't have an NFL and NHL team to B word about.

 

 

So in all the years that the Pegulas have owned the Sabres, not one other team has found a competent GM to hire?

[bbb]

7 hours ago, Mango said:

 

I think this is the problem with the Sabres. He needs to get his hands off of the team. Obviously he has earned (bought) the right to do what he wants when he wants. But it is to the detriment to the success of his investment. Lets not forget when he extended Regier he said things like "nobody has a monopoly on hockey brains" in the organization. He spoke to Regier more than anybody else in the organization, and referee to their conversations as "scheming", and Ted Black called the management structure flat, not top down. He has been a terrible owner of that team. And until Russ diddled some interns (or something like that) he was doing the same thing with the Bills. Russ was his Darcy. 

 

Then there are great owners like Steve Bisciotti: 
 

"There is a difference between being involved and being in charge," Bisciotti said. "I want to be very involved. I just don't want to be in charge. You can't hire talented people and overrule them with less talents ... like myself."

 

Jesus H Christ!  All I see for the last year is that the Pegulas could care less about the Sabres.  Now they are so into the Sabres that they are meddlers.  

[Doc]

8 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

He can't "drill another well"..  He was a fracker, and that business has cratered.  Even if he wanted to drill oil, that business is belly up right now.

 

The article said they weren't to be hired together.  Well that's obvious as they hired McD before they hired Beane.  No living soul believed that, once McD was HC, they were going to hire Brian Gaine, Trey Brown or "Brian Gutekunst".  

 

Ok, maybe one person believes this......

 

That wasn't the main point of the quote.  He was saying he isn't in it for the money.  If the Sabres were to lose money, which they won't, but if they did, he won't sell them because he's made a commitment to the area, has other revenue streams to cover for any losses, loves hockey and at worst can make payroll cuts to the team.  You are truly the only person who believes otherwise, for some unknown reason.

 

As for believing that McD didn't get Terry to hire Beane, it's more than one person.  One of them being...Beane himself:

 

Quote

“Sean and I had those conversations… never, that I can remember, did we say, ‘hey, if I get a GM job, am I going to bring you or if you get a head coaching job are try to sway them to do that?'” Beane added.

 

 

[Mr. WEO]

35 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

That wasn't the main point of the quote.  He was saying he isn't in it for the money.  If the Sabres were to lose money, which they won't, but if they did, he won't sell them because he's made a commitment to the area, has other revenue streams to cover for any losses, loves hockey and at worst can make payroll cuts to the team.  You are truly the only person who believes otherwise, for some unknown reason.

 

As for believing that McD didn't get Terry to hire Beane, it's more than one person.  One of them being...Beane himself:

 

 

 

Of course!  When considering those other 3 candidates...and Beane, McD had no input, no sway at all.  Lol

[Doc]

1 minute ago, Mr. WEO said:

Of course!  When considering those other 3 candidates...and Beane, McD had no input, no sway at all.  Lol

 

LOL.  There's a huge difference between "Terry had no idea at all who Beane was until McD made him hire him" to "no input or sway at all."  I already said he likely asked McD's opinion about him and if they could work together.  But there is no evidence that McD suggested much less introduced much much less forced Terry to hire him, and in fact evidence to the contrary.

[Mango]

1 hour ago, bbb said:

 

Jesus H Christ!  All I see for the last year is that the Pegulas could care less about the Sabres.  Now they are so into the Sabres that they are meddlers.  

 

Its never been that they don’t care. It’s that they haven’t let their sports people do sports work and get out of the way. Whaley can’t hire a coach. Ted Black isn’t in charge. Terry needs to find his hockey McBeane. Until then he will continue to be the Lenny Smalls of NHL ownership. 

[bbb]

1 hour ago, Mango said:

 

Its never been that they don’t care. It’s that they haven’t let their sports people do sports work and get out of the way. Whaley can’t hire a coach. Ted Black isn’t in charge. Terry needs to find his hockey McBeane. Until then he will continue to be the Lenny Smalls of NHL ownership. 

 

I agree that they do care................The people of twitter are always claiming they only care about the Bills and don't care about the Sabres.

 

 

[Malazan]

8 hours ago, LabattBlue said:

bull####.  Don't blame the Pegula's lack of finding a good GM on...  "there are no good GM's to be hired".  That is lame.  It's their job to find a person who can succeed.  Instead, their choices have bombed one after another.  Housley, Murray, Botts, Bylsma & maybe even Krueger.

 

There's a certain amount of circular logic here...They're not experts. The 'experts' can't afford a team (and are usually wrong when they get hired to pick). The Pegulas have to hire someone..either the GM or the people who hire the GM. Blaming them outright for Murray and Botterill is long road to hoe because both had the resume to recommend they become GMs. There's no science to it (or perhaps better to say that there are way too many variables involved to accurately predict successful GMs) that the Pegulas are just *bad* at and could be working harder to get better at..

 

Sure, you can hang around and be like, "I never wanted them! I'd be better at picking the GM!", but a couple things there. You likely wouldn't and you have the lovely ability of not actually having to put your picks where your mouth is...you never actually have to see how your decisions play out. This idea that because the Pegula's bought a team that they should suddenly have some sort of magic ability to pick a GM that is better than the GMs of 15+ other teams is sort of a silly idea. 

 

Reality also kinda demands that if you're going to point out something wrong, what's the alternative? Who's the magical owner with the mastery of hockey knowledge that should be running the sabres? Who's the magic owner who *knows* who to hire? There's maybe 3-4 of those guys in the league. I'm gonna go ahead and be on the side that the other potential bidders weren't going to be better at picking a GM than the Pegulas. 

 

Pretending that there's some sort of nefarious power trip from the pegulas that is making them bad is a conspiracy theory and may make some people feel better for some reason, but occam's razor...finding a GM / Coach Players is:

 

A) Hard

B) Often has a ton of factors that may or may not even be known to anyone that affects their success

 

I think it's a far more productive discussion of the Pegulas on what they are doing to ensure the GM/Team has success that's directly in their control. 

 

Does the team have great facilities? Can they spend to the cap? Does the team provide solid 'extras' (staff like skating coaches, meals, etc, etc)? Do the owners have a positive reception among the league? Do they own and operate minor league teams that struggle with profitability so the organization has control and can teach the same system?? There's a number of questions that make more sense then lampooning their (and most of the league's) inability to hire the right GM for sustained success and I'd genuinely be interested in the answers to these questions. 

Edited April 16, 2020 by jeremy2020

[Billznut]

13 hours ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

People have short memories. I buy Kirby's take. The Pegulas are likely not the sharpest sports executives but I think they are committed to the city and making these teams winners. They whiffed with the Bills before striking on McBeane.  I'm hoping they will get the Sabres right eventually.

It’s only been 9 years. I’m sure Buffalo fans will give them another 8-10 years. The Sabres will do their best to see if they can top the Bills 17 years of ineptitude. They are off to a very strong start. 

[Mr. WEO]

9 hours ago, Doc said:

 

LOL.  There's a huge difference between "Terry had no idea at all who Beane was until McD made him hire him" to "no input or sway at all."  I already said he likely asked McD's opinion about him and if they could work together.  But there is no evidence that McD suggested much less introduced much much less forced Terry to hire him, and in fact evidence to the contrary.

 

 

I'm sure Terry brought it up:  "I'm interested in your former team's assistant general manager.  Tell me your thoughts. Is there any chance the two of you could even possibly work together or should I go with the cursory internal guy or the Rooney guy?"

 

 

LOL....could they work together.  I'm sure that was a real concern, doc.

[SectionC3]

19 hours ago, First Round Bust said:

the bloom is off the rose with the Pegulas...do they see a recession coming, did their vision change?   Man years ago I thought working for a Buffalo professional sports org would have been a dream come true.  They must have their reasons and they dont have to justify as plans and more importantly results change.  They may have been overzealous in their vision, who knows for sure.   I wouldnt want to work for PSE now and I have to wonder if other execs and even rank and file workers would have second thoughts about hiring on in the future  Optics aren't good with the significance of the quantity and quality of jobs lost esp with a pandemic.

 

The recession is here.  Hopefully it doesn't turn into a depression. 

 

None of knows (or at least none of us has been willing to say) the extent to which the Pegulas are leveraged.  I wonder whether it's not so much debt load or cash flow that is a problem, but a hit to the investment portfolio caused by the coronavirus downturn.  Assuming they're into the energy sector (an assumption, to be sure, but not an altogether unreasonable one), they could have taken huge losses in the last two months.  By way of example, I bought a small amount of VDE after Iran seized a couple of oil tankers in the Persian Gulf.  That investment is down about 50% as of today.  It's probably just as bad for domestic energy holdings as well.  

 

In any event, the layoffs on the hockey side of things aren't a great sign for a new stadium (not that I want one because I prefer a renovated New Era).  The dynamic on the state side obviously has changed as a result of the pandemic, and it looks like the amount of private money might have dwindled as well as a result of recent events. 

[BillsFan2313]

23 hours ago, BuffaloRebound said:

Bad look.  A billionaire can’t keep 25 employees on the books for 6 months until things settle down?  

 

Jeremy Jacobs is a billionaire. Go look up how many people were let go at Deleware North.

[Doc]

9 hours ago, bbb said:

I agree that they do care................The people of twitter are always claiming they only care about the Bills and don't care about the Sabres.

 

That's Twitter for you.  Terry cares more about the Sabres than the Bills.

 

2 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

I'm sure Terry brought it up:  "I'm interested in your former team's assistant general manager.  Tell me your thoughts. Is there any chance the two of you could even possibly work together or should I go with the cursory internal guy or the Rooney guy?"

 

 

LOL....could they work together.  I'm sure that was a real concern, doc.

 

Sure it's a concern.  Just because they came from the same team it doesn't mean they necessarily liked each other.  Look at Whaley and Marrone.

 

Anyway...you've taken a detour from your initial silly claim that Terry had no idea who Beane was until he hired McD, and it was McD who hired Beane.  There's not much more to say until you show some proof of this claim.

[bbb]

10 hours ago, jeremy2020 said:

 

There's a certain amount of circular logic here...They're not experts. The 'experts' can't afford a team (and are usually wrong when they get hired to pick). The Pegulas have to hire someone..either the GM or the people who hire the GM. Blaming them outright for Murray and Botterill is long road to hoe because both had the resume to recommend they become GMs. There's no science to it (or perhaps better to say that there are way too many variables involved to accurately predict successful GMs) that the Pegulas are just *bad* at and could be working harder to get better at..

 

Sure, you can hang around and be like, "I never wanted them! I'd be better at picking the GM!", but a couple things there. You likely wouldn't and you have the lovely ability of not actually having to put your picks where your mouth is...you never actually have to see how your decisions play out. This idea that because the Pegula's bought a team that they should suddenly have some sort of magic ability to pick a GM that is better than the GMs of 15+ other teams is sort of a silly idea. 

 

Reality also kinda demands that if you're going to point out something wrong, what's the alternative? Who's the magical owner with the mastery of hockey knowledge that should be running the sabres? Who's the magic owner who *knows* who to hire? There's maybe 3-4 of those guys in the league. I'm gonna go ahead and be on the side that the other potential bidders weren't going to be better at picking a GM than the Pegulas. 

 

Pretending that there's some sort of nefarious power trip from the pegulas that is making them bad is a conspiracy theory and may make some people feel better for some reason, but occam's razor...finding a GM / Coach Players is:

 

A) Hard

B) Often has a ton of factors that may or may not even be known to anyone that affects their success

 

I think it's a far more productive discussion of the Pegulas on what they are doing to ensure the GM/Team has success that's directly in their control. 

 

Does the team have great facilities? Can they spend to the cap? Does the team provide solid 'extras' (staff like skating coaches, meals, etc, etc)? Do the owners have a positive reception among the league? Do they own and operate minor league teams that struggle with profitability so the organization has control and can teach the same system?? There's a number of questions that make more sense then lampooning their (and most of the league's) inability to hire the right GM for sustained success and I'd genuinely be interested in the answers to these questions. 

 

This is one of the best posts I've ever seen on the subject.  I'm getting in constant arguments about this.  

[Mango]

11 hours ago, jeremy2020 said:

 

There's a certain amount of circular logic here...They're not experts. The 'experts' can't afford a team (and are usually wrong when they get hired to pick). The Pegulas have to hire someone..either the GM or the people who hire the GM. Blaming them outright for Murray and Botterill is long road to hoe because both had the resume to recommend they become GMs. There's no science to it (or perhaps better to say that there are way too many variables involved to accurately predict successful GMs) that the Pegulas are just *bad* at and could be working harder to get better at..

 

Sure, you can hang around and be like, "I never wanted them! I'd be better at picking the GM!", but a couple things there. You likely wouldn't and you have the lovely ability of not actually having to put your picks where your mouth is...you never actually have to see how your decisions play out. This idea that because the Pegula's bought a team that they should suddenly have some sort of magic ability to pick a GM that is better than the GMs of 15+ other teams is sort of a silly idea. 

 

Reality also kinda demands that if you're going to point out something wrong, what's the alternative? Who's the magical owner with the mastery of hockey knowledge that should be running the sabres? Who's the magic owner who *knows* who to hire? There's maybe 3-4 of those guys in the league. I'm gonna go ahead and be on the side that the other potential bidders weren't going to be better at picking a GM than the Pegulas. 

 

Pretending that there's some sort of nefarious power trip from the pegulas that is making them bad is a conspiracy theory and may make some people feel better for some reason, but occam's razor...finding a GM / Coach Players is:

 

A) Hard

B) Often has a ton of factors that may or may not even be known to anyone that affects their success

 

I think it's a far more productive discussion of the Pegulas on what they are doing to ensure the GM/Team has success that's directly in their control. 

 

Does the team have great facilities? Can they spend to the cap? Does the team provide solid 'extras' (staff like skating coaches, meals, etc, etc)? Do the owners have a positive reception among the league? Do they own and operate minor league teams that struggle with profitability so the organization has control and can teach the same system?? There's a number of questions that make more sense then lampooning their (and most of the league's) inability to hire the right GM for sustained success and I'd genuinely be interested in the answers to these questions. 

 

Boy, we are really in the meat of a drought eh? Finding a GM is hard or there are other factors that we don't know about that might be at play...The reality is that just about all professional sports teams owners don't have the qualifications to be making roster decisions, which is why most will use their leagues resources to help find somebody who does. 

[Mr. WEO]

4 hours ago, Doc said:

 

That's Twitter for you.  Terry cares more about the Sabres than the Bills.

 

 

Sure it's a concern.  Just because they came from the same team it doesn't mean they necessarily liked each other.  Look at Whaley and Marrone.

 

Anyway...you've taken a detour from your initial silly claim that Terry had no idea who Beane was until he hired McD, and it was McD who hired Beane.  There's not much more to say until you show some proof of this claim.

 

 

I've said that, obviously, Pegula hired both...as only he can.  You are claiming that Pegula completely independently settled upon Beane and the only discussion the had was "could you work with him"?  Absurd.  Why would he NOT totally pimp McD for every last detail regarding Beane and how he does his job etc?

 

The article you sited says McD and Beane never discussed a two-fer.   Doesn't say that about McD and Pegula.  It was Russ Brandon who called Beane, not Pegula.  No doubt Brandon spotted Beane as a better candidate than the bozos they were also interviewing and vetted him through McD.  Then he went to Pegula.

 

But you are free to believe that Terry Pegula, of all people had suddenly become a keen spottier of up and coming GM talent in guys who had never been GM before.  Beane had only interviewed for 1 other GM job--49ers----with McD!  I'm sure McD and Beane, while interviewing together for the same team, had NEVER even considered the possibility they might end up on the same team!  LOL

 

Sure, why not?

[Doc]

1 hour ago, Mr. WEO said:

I've said that, obviously, Pegula hired both...as only he can.  You are claiming that Pegula completely independently settled upon Beane and the only discussion the had was "could you work with him"?  Absurd.  Why would he NOT totally pimp McD for every last detail regarding Beane and how he does his job etc?

 

The article you sited says McD and Beane never discussed a two-fer.   Doesn't say that about McD and Pegula.  It was Russ Brandon who called Beane, not Pegula.  No doubt Brandon spotted Beane as a better candidate than the bozos they were also interviewing and vetted him through McD.  Then he went to Pegula.

 

But you are free to believe that Terry Pegula, of all people had suddenly become a keen spottier of up and coming GM talent in guys who had never been GM before.  Beane had only interviewed for 1 other GM job--49ers----with McD!  I'm sure McD and Beane, while interviewing together for the same team, had NEVER even considered the possibility they might end up on the same team!  LOL

 

Sure, why not?

 

Nice straw man.  I never once said that Terry "completely independently" settled on Beane.  Almost no owner "completely independently" hires important positions.  They get as much input as they can and then use that to make a decision. You know this.  If that's your criteria for getting credit for hiring someone then you could say that no owner should get credit for hiring a successful underling.  But ultimately they make the call and as such, get the credit...or the blame.  You can't conveniently give them credit when you want.

 

I was merely laughing at your claim that Terry had no idea at all who Beane was until McD was hired, as your way of discrediting Terry.  Again, Beane was known in NFL circles at the latest the moment he interviewed with the 49'ers in January of that year.

 

And I don't know if he's a keep spotter of up and coming talent.  Are you saying Brandon is?  McD?  As a Bills fan, you should be happy he hired them both and hope he is.

[TheyCallMeAndy]

On 4/15/2020 at 9:56 AM, BuffaloRebound said:

Bad look.  A billionaire can’t keep 25 employees on the books for 6 months until things settle down?  

Doesn't laying them off open them up for unenployment? 

[Mr. WEO]

5 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

Nice straw man.  I never once said that Terry "completely independently" settled on Beane.  Almost no owner "completely independently" hires important positions.  They get as much input as they can and then use that to make a decision. You know this.  If that's your criteria for getting credit for hiring someone then you could say that no owner should get credit for hiring a successful underling.  But ultimately they make the call and as such, get the credit...or the blame.  You can't conveniently give them credit when you want.

 

I was merely laughing at your claim that Terry had no idea at all who Beane was until McD was hired, as your way of discrediting Terry.  Again, Beane was known in NFL circles at the latest the moment he interviewed with the 49'ers in January of that year.

 

And I don't know if he's a keep spotter of up and coming talent.  Are you saying Brandon is?  McD?  As a Bills fan, you should be happy he hired them both and hope he is.

 

 

I'm pretty comfortable concluding he didn't.  Russ did. And McD filled in the gaps.

 

No reason to believe otherwise.  And no, given Pegula's history with both the Bills and the Sabres, it would be laughable to suddenly believe he can cull Jr. GM talent on his own in either league.  Stop marrying the absurd for once.  He made a great hire in McD and it went firm there with Beane for all of the obvious reasons I've cited.