Lieutenant Aldo Raine Posted April 12, 2020 Posted April 12, 2020 8 minutes ago, njbuff said: I am not going to engage here. I will just say.............. If you and the other Allen non-believers didn't think that Allen improved significantly from year one to year two.................. I don't know what to tell you. The Biscuit dude is like the leader of the "Allen non-believers".
Codyny13 Posted April 12, 2020 Posted April 12, 2020 Late bloomer in most senses when it comes to his football acumen, but, he’s smart, mobile, coachable, has incredible arm talent, a leader, a learner, a gamer, competitive, has ideal size, and all the intangibles. As long as he continues to work at it, I think he’s the answer. It’s just not immediate like a few other guys that played in power 5 conferences.
Charles Romes Posted April 12, 2020 Posted April 12, 2020 Mahomes was way off for 3 and half quarters in the Super Bowl, and made a few plays with his rocket arm at the end to take home the title. Mahomes Super Bowl MVP performance is well within Allen’s reach, and he should be able to surpass that level most games. There will always be huge plays for Allen to make because of his arm and running ability. He just needs to make 1-2 huge plays a game.
Mango Posted April 12, 2020 Posted April 12, 2020 2 hours ago, njbuff said: I am not going to engage here. I will just say.............. If you and the other Allen non-believers didn't think that Allen improved significantly from year one to year two.................. I don't know what to tell you. Honest question. If Allen returned the entire offense from 2019 with zero changes or improvements, other than his own, what do you predict his 2020 stat line is? What metrics are improved and by how much? (note: none of this is to say he has not improved or will not improve)
GoBills808 Posted April 12, 2020 Posted April 12, 2020 7 minutes ago, Mango said: Honest question. If Allen returned the entire offense from 2019 with zero changes or improvements, other than his own, what do you predict his 2020 stat line is? What metrics are improved and by how much? (note: none of this is to say he has not improved or will not improve) Who cares? Why would anyone waste time pondering a player’s improvement in a vacuum?
Richard Noggin Posted April 12, 2020 Posted April 12, 2020 12 hours ago, Rock'em Sock'em said: Diggs would have caught 50% of those. ? That's the spirit.
Mango Posted April 12, 2020 Posted April 12, 2020 6 minutes ago, GoBills808 said: Who cares? Why would anyone waste time pondering a player’s improvement in a vacuum? Because it’s important to get an idea of an individuals progression outside of their supporting cast.
GoBills808 Posted April 12, 2020 Posted April 12, 2020 Just now, Mango said: Because it’s important to get an idea of an individuals progression outside of their supporting cast. How did Pat Mahomes’ stats look from 2018-2019 returning basically the same roster?
John from Riverside Posted April 12, 2020 Posted April 12, 2020 16 minutes ago, Mango said: Because it’s important to get an idea of an individuals progression outside of their supporting cast. That is just hard to guage when you have players dropping the most passes in the league. I mean.....I get the naysayers..they want Tom Brady type accuracy....I dont know that Josh ever gets to that point BUT it is fair to say that his pass catchers have not been the greatest........then Smoke and Bease come to Buffalo and have career years....to me that DOES say something. He is a work in progress.....he progressed from year one to year to.....as long as he keeps progressing 5
Mango Posted April 12, 2020 Posted April 12, 2020 7 minutes ago, GoBills808 said: How did Pat Mahomes’ stats look from 2018-2019 returning basically the same roster? You are dodging the question and shifting the goal posts. But I think you already know that. To answer your question, his stat line dropped from historically great to MVP conversation. Again, we should try to get an idea of Josh’s improvements outside of his supporting cast. That isn’t an argument against him actually improving, because he did. It’s not a hard line, and is a worthy point/conversation. Maybe the better question is, what’s the increased offensive production with the addition of Diggs, and we get the same Josh Allen? Points, yards, etc? 7 minutes ago, John from Riverside said: That is just hard to guage when you have players dropping the most passes in the league. I mean.....I get the naysayers..they want Tom Brady type accuracy....I dont know that Josh ever gets to that point BUT it is fair to say that his pass catchers have not been the greatest........then Smoke and Bease come to Buffalo and have career years....to me that DOES say something. He is a work in progress.....he progressed from year one to year to.....as long as he keeps progressing I can get behind most of this. He definitely improved and there were some issues with supporting cast. I was more just responding to the blanket statement that seemed to come off as, “you’re with Josh or you’re against him”. The offense needs a large leap from a few positions to be mentioned in the conversation of consistantly above average. QB is one of those positions. 1
GoBills808 Posted April 12, 2020 Posted April 12, 2020 1 minute ago, Mango said: You are dodging the question and shifting the goal posts. But I think you already know that. To answer your question, his stat line dropped from historically great to MVP conversation. Again, we should try to get an idea of Josh’s improvements outside of his supporting cast. That isn’t an argument against him actually improving, because he did. It’s not a hard line, and is a worthy point/conversation. Maybe the better question is, what’s the increased offensive production with the addition of Diggs, and we get the same Josh Allen? Points, yards, etc? No. You posited a hypothetical wherein Allen returns the 2019 offense in 2020 and wondered what his improvement might be. I responded with an actual example of the best young QB in the league, returning basically the same roster, whose stats did not improve...illustrating my original point that there’s no point in looking for some non-team dependent statistical benchmarks you can point to as a referendum on a QB’s trajectory. ^said point a lot
GreggTX Posted April 12, 2020 Posted April 12, 2020 (edited) Why bother with all of this nonsense? His ball placement is highly inconsistent even on short throws and a large percentage of his deep balls miss by 10 ' or more. Trust your eyes. Want our receivers to drop fewer passes? Try putting the ball on target. No receiver has an easier time bringing in passes if the ball is poorly placed. Josh Allen is an elite scrambler with great arm strength, but in the pocket, he plays like a backup. That said, he continues to improve. I'm hoping he can do what Tannehill did in Tennessee. My greatest fear is that he will do just enough to stick around a while and hold this team back like Winston did in Tampa. We have a good coaching staff and I'd hate to lose them because they refuse to part ways with him if his upward trend doesn't take him very far. He's a good person, hard worker and good leader and I'm pulling for him. Keeping my fingers crossed. He has another weapon now, but needs a better OL and TE before he can hit his full potential. Edited April 12, 2020 by GreggTX 3
Mango Posted April 12, 2020 Posted April 12, 2020 8 minutes ago, GoBills808 said: No. You posited a hypothetical wherein Allen returns the 2019 offense in 2020 and wondered what his improvement might be. I responded with an actual example of the best young QB in the league, returning basically the same roster, whose stats did not improve...illustrating my original point that there’s no point in looking for some non-team dependent statistical benchmarks you can point to as a referendum on a QB’s trajectory. ^said point a lot Your big rebuttal (without actually addressing the question) is that Mahomes had an MVP like year after only starting 14 games, was top 10 in every metric, won SB MVP, and that was such a decline from having an MVP year and being top 5 in every metric, with no super bowl....that we shouldn’t try and get an idea of what our young QB’s individual growth/expectations are (outside of added talent) as he tries to establish himself in the NFL? This is the hill you are going to die on? Rather than just say, I would expect XYZ after another year of development if all things remain equal? 1 1
GoBills808 Posted April 12, 2020 Posted April 12, 2020 2 minutes ago, Mango said: Your big rebuttal (without actually addressing the question) is that Mahomes had an MVP like year after only starting 14 games, was top 10 in every metric, won SB MVP, and that was such a decline from having an MVP year and being top 5 in every metric, with no super bowl....that we shouldn’t try and get an idea of what our young QB’s individual growth/expectations are (outside of added talent) as he tries to establish himself in the NFL? This is the hill you are going to die on? Rather than just say, I would expect XYZ after another year of development if all things remain equal? Well if we go by Mahomes we can expect little improvement or slight decline with same personnel. Or we could just admit it’s an exercise in futility. Growth is not linear. Different quarterbacks improve at different rates.
Mango Posted April 12, 2020 Posted April 12, 2020 2 minutes ago, GoBills808 said: Well if we go by Mahomes we can expect little improvement or slight decline with same personnel. Or we could just admit it’s an exercise in futility. Growth is not linear. Different quarterbacks improve at different rates. So don’t be surprised if we don’t see any growth? Because Mahomes went from a historical to elite year? Or don’t be surprised if we don’t any gains because growth is not linear? I am just traveling down the path you are taking me on... 2
GoBills808 Posted April 12, 2020 Posted April 12, 2020 2 minutes ago, Mango said: So don’t be surprised if we don’t see any growth? Because Mahomes went from a historical to elite year? Or don’t be surprised if we don’t any gains because growth is not linear? I am just traveling down the path you are taking me on... Lol. Are we experiencing roster stasis? Did I say Allen’s career is likely to mirror Mahomes? I expect Allen to improve with the addition of Diggs and a second year behind the same offensive line, similar as I expected improvement from his rookie to second when they overhauled a bad offensive roster. You want some arbitrary rate of statistical improvement, do it yourself.
Mango Posted April 12, 2020 Posted April 12, 2020 (edited) 5 minutes ago, GoBills808 said: Lol. Are we experiencing roster stasis? Did I say Allen’s career is likely to mirror Mahomes? I expect Allen to improve with the addition of Diggs and a second year behind the same offensive line, similar as I expected improvement from his rookie to second when they overhauled a bad offensive roster. You want some arbitrary rate of statistical improvement, do it yourself. Quality additions to the conversation per usual... Edited April 12, 2020 by Mango 1
GoBills808 Posted April 12, 2020 Posted April 12, 2020 1 hour ago, Mango said: Honest question. If Allen returned the entire offense from 2019 with zero changes or improvements, other than his own, what do you predict his 2020 stat line is? What metrics are improved and by how much? (note: none of this is to say he has not improved or will not improve) ‘Honest question’ lmao Great contributions abound
njbuff Posted April 12, 2020 Posted April 12, 2020 1 hour ago, Mango said: Honest question. If Allen returned the entire offense from 2019 with zero changes or improvements, other than his own, what do you predict his 2020 stat line is? What metrics are improved and by how much? (note: none of this is to say he has not improved or will not improve) I am not a stats junkie or anything. An improvement from Allen to me means a deep run in the playoffs. Anything less is a step back, FOR ALL OF UF. 1
YattaOkasan Posted April 12, 2020 Posted April 12, 2020 7 hours ago, GreggTX said: Why bother with all of this nonsense? His ball placement is highly inconsistent even on short throws and a large percentage of his deep balls miss by 10 ' or more. Trust your eyes. Want our receivers to drop fewer passes? Try putting the ball on target. No receiver has an easier time bringing in passes if the ball is poorly placed. Josh Allen is an elite scrambler with great arm strength, but in the pocket, he plays like a backup. That said, he continues to improve. I'm hoping he can do what Tannehill did in Tennessee. My greatest fear is that he will do just enough to stick around a while and hold this team back like Winston did in Tampa. We have a good coaching staff and I'd hate to lose them because they refuse to part ways with him if his upward trend doesn't take him very far. He's a good person, hard worker and good leader and I'm pulling for him. Keeping my fingers crossed. He has another weapon now, but needs a better OL and TE before he can hit his full potential. Drops are by definition throws that should have been caught. None of the throws in the tweet were drops. Does he need to get more consistent? Yes. Does the supporting cast need to not let him down so much? Yes (drops and separation from WR also time and penalties from the OL).
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