Grateful Dead

[RaoulDuke79]

2 hours ago, The Real Buffalo Joe said:

I know I'm stepping on some toes here, but I'm honestly asking, not just trying to cause trouble. I can’t be the only person that’s tried, multiple times, to get into the Grateful Dead and just can’t. From what I've listened to, they’re just not that great. They come off as a poor man’s Allman Brothers. If there’s something I’m missing, let me know. Their guitar playing is average at best, their singing is atrocious. I consider myself fairly knowledgeable about rock music, especially from that era. I just don’t hear it.

I'm with you.  I never got  into the dead that much. With that being said,  I haven't listened to much of their music,  so I may be missing  a lot. I do enjoy some Ripple from time to time.

 

[The Real Buffalo Joe]

2 hours ago, Simon said:

 

I guess that begs the question "What exactly have you tried listening to?"

There's years where Jerry is strung out and the band is not engaged.

There's stuff where the goal was experimentation as opposed to keeping it tight.

There's times when the drugs have overwhelmed the quality of the music.

The very earliest stuff can fall on the wrong side of psychedelic.

 

But both of the guitar players are among the best ever at what they do as individuals.

Garcia's interpretation of Hunter's lyrics is usually spot on; maybe you mistakenly listened to them letting Phil sing.

Tell us what you've heard that you don't like and folks can probably suggest some stuff that you would.

I had this discussion on Facebook, and brought it here because I know how many deadheads there are here. They asked some of the same questions I was asked here as far as what I've heard. I honestly couldn't name many songs outside of their hits. Casey Jones, Truckin, Touch of Gray, etc. But I've looked up live performances and wasn't impressed.

According to some of my friends, they said some of the same things you've hit on here. That the best recordings are either some of the newer stuff, like within the past 20 years or so, which I'd always assumed anything after Jerry died wasn't truly considered "canon," or their stuff from the early to mid 70s.

 

The stuff I'd checked out was from the late 70s-80s-ish. Which according to my friends, was when half of their shows were experimenting with weird stuff that didn't always come out very good, or the whole band was way too into heroin at the time. Again, someone else's opinion, not my own. I'll check some of it out in the next few days, and report what I hear. Any suggestions from those eras?

[Pete]

38 minutes ago, Mark80 said:

 

You clearly have not done enough drugs in your life.

I tease a good buddy who is a huge Phish fan.

What did the Phish fan say when he ran out of drugs?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This music sucks

[WhoTom]

I never heard much Dead until college, where I became friends with some Deadheads who had extensive bootleg collections. I fell in love with the jams before I even knew most of the songs. One college friend in the same group absolutely hated the Dead and frequently reminded us of how bad they were. Fast forward about 30 years, and the old gang is at a music festival. One band was called Uncle Claude's Band - a take-off on a Dead song title. My friend who hated the Dead was dancing to the music, telling me how great it was. He said, "I might have to buy one of their CDs." I said, "You realize these guys are a tribute band and they don't produce their own music, right? More specifically, they're a Grateful Dead tribute band - you've been dancing to Dead songs for an hour."

 

He finally admitted that his lifelong hatred for the Dead was based on Casey Jones, the only Dead song he'd heard on the radio.

 

I will say that they're an acquired taste (like coffee and beer), but well worth the effort (also like coffee and beer). I suggest going to see one of the tribute bands to get a better feel for the music. Joe Russo's Almost Dead (JRAD) is a good one, and Dark Star Orchestra is another. JRAD puts its own spin on the old tunes, while DSO reproduces entire Dead shows precisely as the Dead performed them. Although Dead and Company has 3 original members, they are, for all practical purposes, a tribute band at this point. They're good, but not as good as JRAD and DSO, in my opinion.

 

Check this out:

 

 

 

 

 

[The Poojer]

2 hours ago, 4_kidd_4 said:

It’s not the tunes it’s their live show. You gotta smell the crowd to truly appreciate. 

 

That did it for me.  Crested a hill in Rochester and saw the lot scene and I was hooked.  Then the show started and everyone was just dancing.  It's been a great bus ride ever since

[KD in CA]

Bob Weir lives just up the hill from me and owns the local music hall that's around the corner.  I saw him there two months ago at the launch of his current (now suspended) tour.  First time I ever saw any member of the Dead perform live, and while I always thought they were pretty good, I've never been a huge fan.  Perhaps it was just the hippie vibe in the crowd and the faint scent of herb in the air, but I was blown away.  He was fantastic, one of the best performers I've ever seen live.  It actually made me regret never going to see the Dead as a youngster when they were together.  Maybe I wouldn't have liked them as much then, but I'm sure glad I got to see one of them now.

[GETTOTHE50]

it took me a lil bit to get into the dead, but they are obviously amazing.

 

it took i know you rider for it to finally click for me

 

love sugar magnolia too... takes the wheel when im seeing double, pays my ticket when i sppppeeeeeeeddddddd haha

[Simon]

46 minutes ago, The Real Buffalo Joe said:

I had this discussion on Facebook, and brought it here because I know how many deadheads there are here. They asked some of the same questions I was asked here as far as what I've heard. I honestly couldn't name many songs outside of their hits. Casey Jones, Truckin, Touch of Gray, etc. But I've looked up live performances and wasn't impressed.

According to some of my friends, they said some of the same things you've hit on here. That the best recordings are either some of the newer stuff, like within the past 20 years or so, which I'd always assumed anything after Jerry died wasn't truly considered "canon," or their stuff from the early to mid 70s.

 

The stuff I'd checked out was from the late 70s-80s-ish. Which according to my friends, was when half of their shows were experimenting with weird stuff that didn't always come out very good, or the whole band was way too into heroin at the time. Again, someone else's opinion, not my own. I'll check some of it out in the next few days, and report what I hear. Any suggestions from those eras?

 

One guy's opinion isn't going to necessarily be representative of how everybody sees it but here's sort of a GD primer from my own perspective:

 

A lot of the stuff before 1970 has a plinky/annoying psychedelic sound that I don't care for but if you find some live stuff from that early with Pigpen involved you can still find a good blues sound.

They really hit their stride around '70 and up until about 77/78 were very good before the hard drugs and the accompanying turmoil really hurt them.

They eventually got it cleaned up (relatively speaking) in the mid-late 80's and were very sharp into the early/mid 90's.

Garcia died in the mid 90's and as far as I am concerned nothing after that is the Grateful Dead so I know little about it.

 

Studio albums and live shows between 1970 - 1977 are good.

Shows from about 1987 - 1994 are also good.

 

Here's some of my favorite songs if you want to check any out:

 

Shakedown St

China Cat / I Know you Rider

New Speedway Boogie

El Paso

Me and My Uncle

Eyes of the World (find a version w/ Branford Marsalis)

Help on the Way / Slipknot / Franklin's Tower

Jackstraw

Estimated Prophet

Scarlet Begonias / Fire on the Mountain

The Music Never Stopped

Stagger Lee

Aiko-Aiko / Women are Smarter

Sugar Magnolia

Brokedown Palace

Deal

Alabama Getaway

Cumberland Blues

 

 

 

 

 

[ocemur]

Have you been listening to Donna? You shouldn't listen to Donna.

[WhoTom]

10 minutes ago, ocemur said:

Have you been listening to Donna? You shouldn't listen to Donna.

 

She was kind of hit-or-miss. On a good night, she was pretty good. On a bad night ... well, really bad.

[Augie]

1 hour ago, Simon said:

 

One guy's opinion isn't going to necessarily be representative of how everybody sees it but here's sort of a GD primer from my own perspective:

 

A lot of the stuff before 1970 has a plinky/annoying psychedelic sound that I don't care for but if you find some live stuff from that early with Pigpen involved you can still find a good blues sound.

They really hit their stride around '70 and up until about 77/78 were very good before the hard drugs and the accompanying turmoil really hurt them.

They eventually got it cleaned up (relatively speaking) in the mid-late 80's and were very sharp into the early/mid 90's.

Garcia died in the mid 90's and as far as I am concerned nothing after that is the Grateful Dead so I know little about it.

 

Studio albums and live shows between 1970 - 1977 are good.

Shows from about 1987 - 1994 are also good.

 

Here's some of my favorite songs if you want to check any out:

 

Shakedown St

China Cat / I Know you Rider

New Speedway Boogie

El Paso

Me and My Uncle

Eyes of the World (find a version w/ Branford Marsalis)

Help on the Way / Slipknot / Franklin's Tower

Jackstraw

Estimated Prophet

Scarlet Begonias / Fire on the Mountain

The Music Never Stopped

Stagger Lee

Aiko-Aiko / Women are Smarter

Sugar Magnolia

Brokedown Palace

Deal

Alabama Getaway

Cumberland Blues

 

 

 

 

 

 

That’s an amazing list, but it does give me an itch I can’t quite scratch. So much great stuff! 

 

I know you’re supposed to love your college years, and I did in many ways. I did NOT love living in poverty with a bunch of dirty guys. BUT, when I think back to some of that music, it reminds me of all the great times, parties and people. Great times, and I’m still in touch with many of them. 

 

Sugar Magnolia may be my all-time favorite. A place in Hilton Head called the Old Post Office (because, you know, it was....) had a guy named Dave Truly who may have been slightly post @Chef Jim‘s time. They did a great version of Sugar Magnolia, and it’s a shame Uber did not exist back then. 

 

.

Edited April 9, 2020 by Augie

[Simon]

40 minutes ago, ocemur said:

Have you been listening to Donna? You shouldn't listen to Donna.

 

Tell him Keith!

[Bad Things]

5 hours ago, DrDawkinstein said:

Yeah, next time youre chillin in the yard on a sunny day, put on American Beauty as background music.

I was doing that very thing yesterday afternoon.

[Chef Jim]

5 hours ago, The Real Buffalo Joe said:

I know I'm stepping on some toes here, but I'm honestly asking, not just trying to cause trouble. I can’t be the only person that’s tried, multiple times, to get into the Grateful Dead and just can’t. From what I've listened to, they’re just not that great. They come off as a poor man’s Allman Brothers. If there’s something I’m missing, let me know. Their guitar playing is average at best, their singing is atrocious. I consider myself fairly knowledgeable about rock music, especially from that era. I just don’t hear it.

 

Ok from a jam band freak a couple of notes

 

1. The Dead is not a poor man's Allman Brothers.  Though they are two jam bands they are very different.  The Dead were pretty much 100% psychedelic (the ABB hated it when the Dead dosed them) whereas the ABB was either alcohol, pot, cocaine or heroin influenced.  You could tell by their performance or recording which mind altering substance they happened to have stumbled upon before the show or studio gig.  I like the Dead but love love love the Allman Brothers

2.  Jam music is not for everyone.  There's nothing wrong with that.  Music is the most subjective thing out there and it drives me crazy when people try to push their music on you or tell you yours sucks.  There is a particular poster who shall remain nameless who said Jethro Tull was not Rock and Roll because Ian Anderson played the flute.  Ok dude....what is rock and roll anyway?  Ask a million people you get a million answers.

3.  I really researched the Dead (and all 60's "hippy music") when I moved to the Bay area in 2009 and lived in SF for 3 years.  I went to more concerts when I was in the Bay Area (8.5 years total) than in the 30 years of concerts before moving there and the 3 years since moving away combined.  But the best (not musically but atmospherically) was Further at The Bill Graham NYE.  3 Sets and 5 plus hours of entertainment.  

4.  When you say you don't get their music you are by far in the majority.  I like being in the minority.    

[Pete]

1 hour ago, ocemur said:

Have you been listening to Donna? You shouldn't listen to Donna.

It’s like she tried to ruin some of the dead’s best years

[Logic]

6 hours ago, The Real Buffalo Joe said:

I know I'm stepping on some toes here, but I'm honestly asking, not just trying to cause trouble. I can’t be the only person that’s tried, multiple times, to get into the Grateful Dead and just can’t. From what I've listened to, they’re just not that great. They come off as a poor man’s Allman Brothers. If there’s something I’m missing, let me know. Their guitar playing is average at best, their singing is atrocious. I consider myself fairly knowledgeable about rock music, especially from that era. I just don’t hear it.

I am an obsessive Deadhead. With each year that goes by, I just get more and more into the Dead. It never gets old to me. One key thing to know, by the way, is that listening to their live shows is absolutely, positively the way to understand and enjoy them best. The Dead themselves agree. They were just never really able to match the greatness of their live shows in a studio setting. More on that below.

First, in short: music is highly subjective. Each band puts off a certain "frequency" that either resonates with you or it doesn't. If the Dead don't resonate with you, that's perfectly fine. There are PLENTY of popular artists who I just don't "get". I'm not a big Bruce Springsteen, Rolling Stones, or Led Zeppelin guy. I can appreciate why people like their music, and I can admit that they're objectively "good", whatever that means. It's just not for me. As Ram Dass would say: "I just have no business with them".  

Now, let me tell you why I love the Grateful Dead. If you don't want to really find out what the Dead is all about, just click away now, because this is it:

1.) The musicians - Each musician in the Dead comes from a different background. Jerry Garcia was brought up on bluegrass and folk music. He is also highly influenced by Django Reinhart. His style is melodically unique and no one else sounds like him. The second you hear Jerry Garcia, you know it's Jerry Garcia. He's unique largely because the scales and themes that he predominantly uses are NOT based in blues and R&B. This alone sets him apart from just about every popular rock guitarist ever. His choice of notes...what can I say? His guitar SOUNDS like a sunny day in California. It SOUNDS like happiness. Then you have Phil Lesh, the bassist, who is a classical and avante garde musician who plays the bass in a highly irregular fashion. He is as much a "lead player" as Jerry Garcia. In order to provide back balance to these two "lead players" (Phil and Jerry), the rhythm guitarist, Bob Weir, plays in a highly unique, "percussive" sort of style that can best be likened to the way pianist McCoy Tyner played behind John Coltrane. He fills in the empty spaces and keeps things grounded. Along with him are the two drummers. Bill Kretuzman comes from a marching band background, whereas Mickey Hart is versed in world rhythms, poly-rhythms, and odd percussion instruments. The two of them together combine to create a one-of-a-kind, drummer-with-four-arms sound that offsets the wild musical adventurousness of Jerry Garcia and Phil Lesh. Lastly, the keyboardists. The first was Pigpen, who was a blues guy through and through. After him came Keith Godchaux, who was a classical pianist. After him came Brent Mydland, who played a B3 organ and had a raspy, soulful voice that added new color to the band. Going back over what I've just elucidated, you have players from bluegrass, folk, country, blues, classical, world music, and R&B backgrounds, which combine into a strange and completely unique amalgam of Americana. The band has songs in each of these styles, too. To listen to the Grateful Dead is to listen to the entire history of American music. Oh, and the singing? You're right, they don't have "good" singing voices. I'll defer to Sam Cooke here, who once said "the degree to which you should be considered a good singer ought to be based not on how 'beautiful' your voice is, but by how effectively you can convince us that you're telling  the truth". When Jerry Garcia or Bob Weir sang, I always believed them. 

2.) The Songbook - None of the above would matter much if the songs sucked. I'm not a fan of Phish, or Widespread Panic, or any other "jam music", for instance, because the songs are no good and the jams/solo sections are aimless, masturbatory silliness. In the Dead's case, the lyrics are provided by Robert Hunter, who is an EXTREMELY underrated lyricist. His writing is heavily steeped in literary history. He uses strange, Joycean word combinations. He writes about "the old, strange, weird America". About gamblers, thieves, cowboys, murderers, love, poker games, travelers, and death. He's such a strong lyricist that Bob Dylan actually asked Hunter to write some songs for him. How many people has Bob Dylan asked to write songs for HIM? Not many. Aside from the lyrics, the musical compositions themselves are often bizarre and/or brilliant. They often play in strange time signatures. They also often string songs together end-to-end during live shows, or begin with a song, move through a few others, then back to the original. They have some highly musically complex compositions that bely the "silly hippie band" stereotype that most apply to them. Many a "serious musician" has been talked into listening to the Grateful Dead, nearly against their will, only to be blown away by the musical dexterity and originality of the band. Their songs are catchy. They evoke true and honest feeling. They're often deeply sad. They seem to have an ethereal ability to change meaning over time and to mean completely different things to different people. They have an absolutely amazing, dense, beautiful songbook.

3.) The improvisation/the recorded history - The Grateful Dead had nearly every show they ever played over the course of a 30-year-career recorded. They usually toured 7-9 months out of the year. But what kind of nut would want to LISTEN to 30 years of the same band? Well, here's the thing: They never played the same show twice. Not just the setlist of songs they chose, but the WAY they played each song...was never the same twice. Each song and each show were completely unique, like snowflakes. So I can sit down with 30 versions of a song, and each one will be different. This provides for the listener what essentially amounts to a vast, nearly inexhaustible treasure hunt. The ability to find which shows were good and for what reasons. Which particular versions of songs were transcendent and why. The REASON the shows and songs were so different is that the band essentially used the songs as jumping off points for improvisation -- much like you find in jazz music. The muse might catch them in a certain way on a certain night and take them to new heights. Or it might not, and they might lay down a stinker. The fans came along for the ride and gave them permission to search for the muse each night. This meant that, when things WEREN'T going well, the show wasn't going to bowl anyone ever. If they DID catch that unspeakable SOMETHING, though, it meant vastly higher highs than bands who DIDN'T take the same type of risks were capable of achieving. This night-to-night search is what the Dead's musical journey was all about. In addition, as you might imagine, over the course of 30 years, the band changed a lot. The instruments they played, the effects they used, the songs that came and went from their repertoire. In short, they changed and evolved countless times over the course of their history. The one common thread that snaked through their entire career, though? That would be...

4.) Psychedelic group mind/the live show experience - From their first days as a band, the Grateful Dead were taking psychedelics together. Coming up in San Francisco in 1965, they would all drop acid and go to one of Ken Kesey's Acid Tests (all night, acid-fueled, multi-media drenched bacchanalias where anything goes), where they were the house band and could play anything they wanted. These constant psychedelic sessions and the frequency with which the Dead played together fused them together into a sort of group mind that is hard to understand or empathize with unless you've had psychedelic experience yourself. The players learned to listen to each other deeply, to leave space for each other, to anticipate where the others were going and beat them to the punch. When the Dead were "on", they were six men playing as one organism -- as the band would say, "the music played the band". Not only that, but the audience, too, became a part of the show. The wild, wooly, traveling circus of lunatics that followed the Grateful Dead and filed into the shows each night helped dictate the outcome of the music. A really hot and involved crowd often meant a great set from the band. There weren't big light shows or pyrotechnics, just a pure exchange between audience and band, such that the boundaries between the two dissolved. The old saying "there is NOTHING like a Grateful Dead show" is absolutely true. It was like an ancient, tribal ritual brought back from from..well...from the dead, I guess. Human beings have been getting together for centuries, taking different mind-altering substances, and dancing around fires to music in order to transcend common reality and reach the Heavens. Dead shows called to mind exactly that type of ritual. There was no judgement at these shows, no cynical laughter at someone for dancing too funny. To be at a Grateful Dead show was to be  completely free. No matter how weird you were, you were never the weirdest guy there. There was a palpable feeling of love, community, comraderie, compassion, and shared joy at these shows. Everyone took care of each other. Everyone was there for the same thing -- transcendence. Again, this is hard to describe in words and I'm sure sounds trite and silly to someone who never experienced it. What can I say? Some things are beyond words, and Grateful Dead shows are definitely one of those things.


So...if you're with me this far....the combination of the musicians, the lyrics, the musical compositions, the vast array of musical styles which ultimately comprise the entire history of American music, the improvisation, the impact of psychedelics, the atmosphere at live shows, the community of fans...it all combined to make a completely unique, unmatched, unrivaled, and absolutely magical experience. In all likelihood, the Deadheads probably detract from the band, because people see all the hippie-dippie fans and just assume it must all be hippie-dippie throwaway music. But it's not. It's deep, dense, rich, beautiful stuff, and there is nothing on earth quite like it. If you don't like it, if you "have no business with it", if it doesn't resonate with you, that's fine. But to those for whom it DOES resonate...it is a great blessing. It is grace. It is magic. Click any one of the links below and pull it up on your phone and go for a drive on a sunny day with the windows down and blast it. If that doesn't "do it" for you, nothing of theirs likely ever will. And that's okay.

The following three shows are from three of the best years of their touring career. The first is the most popularly traded Dead show of all time, which some consider to be their best, from 5-8-77 at Cornell University. The second is from 11-11-73 at Winterland Arena, and the third is from their famed Europe '72 tour, taking place on 04-17-72.


https://archive.org/details/gd77-05-08.sbd.hicks.4982.sbeok.shnf.

https://archive.org/details/gd73-11-11.sbd.schlissel.14105.sbeok.shnf

https://archive.org/details/gd1972-04-17.sbd.sirmick.34038.sbeok.flacf


Hope this helps.

Edited April 10, 2020 by Logic

[Chef Jim]

5 hours ago, Bill from NYC said:

Sure, gotcha.

 

He's 100% correct.  Jerry had the most unique sound but was average.   Don't get me started on Bobby.  TUNE THE ***** BOBBY!  Now Phil's a decent bass player but being able the make a stadium shake with Phil Bombs doesn't make you great.  But you don't listen to The Dead for their musical prowess (save that for Umphrey's ?) you listen to them for the experience/history. They are right up there with the Beach Boys as "America's Band".  

 

[Augie]

5 minutes ago, Chef Jim said:

 

He's 100% correct.  Jerry had the most unique sound but was average.   Don't get me started on Bobby.  TUNE THE ***** BOBBY!  Now Phil's a decent bass player but being able the make a stadium shake with Phil Bombs doesn't make you great.  But you don't listen to The Dead for their musical prowess (save that for Umphrey's ?) you listen to them for the experience/history. They are right up there with the Beach Boys as "America's Band".  

 

 

Yes, when I think of the Dead, the next think that comes to mind is..............the Beach Boys? 

[Logic]

16 minutes ago, Chef Jim said:

 

He's 100% correct.  Jerry had the most unique sound but was average.   Don't get me started on Bobby.  TUNE THE ***** BOBBY!  Now Phil's a decent bass player but being able the make a stadium shake with Phil Bombs doesn't make you great.  But you don't listen to The Dead for their musical prowess (save that for Umphrey's ?) you listen to them for the experience/history. They are right up there with the Beach Boys as "America's Band".  

 

I disagree with all of this. Entirely.

Jerry Garcia an average guitarist? I don't even know what to say to that. I'll just not bother.

Bob Weir was a completely unique rhythm guitarist. As I mentioned in my post above, he had the unenviable task of trying to fit into a musical soundscape that featured two dominant lead players -- Jerry and Phil -- and left little room for assertive rhythm guitar. So instead of even trying that, he affected a style that is best compared to a jazz pianist like McCoy Tyner. Odd, unique, percussive, rhyhtmic jabs that no other rhythm guitarist really ever even tried. 

Phil Lesh only a DECENT bass player? Again, I couldn't disagree more. A completely unique player. No bassist in rock music sounds like Phil Lesh. He is also a highly trained classical musician with a deep knowledge of the form. The way he completely eschews traditional bass playing and instead basically plays it like a lead instrument is awe-inspiring. The degree to which he uses the high register of an instrument whose high register is rarely so well used, again...hard to put words to. Just amazing, really.

To each their own. As I stated above, music is highly subjective. Neither of us is "right". I do, however, COMPLETELY disagree with everything you said. I also completely disagree that Umphrey's friggin McGee has more musical prowess than the Grateful Dead. But again, to each their own.  

 

 

Edited April 10, 2020 by Logic

[Simon]

34 minutes ago, Logic said:

Jerry Garcia an average guitarist? I don't even know what to say to that. I'll just not bother.

 

 

 

I think your'e talking to a guy who views giant power chords and staccato solos as the highest form of guitar.

Not casting aspersions Chef, just suggesting there's more than one way to be great.

 

I don't care if Garcia was playing a guitar, a mandolin, a banjo or a tennis racket, that beautiful flowing deft style makes him one of the most accomplished pickers I've ever heard.