The Big Gamble: Hydroxychloroquine

[Doc Brown]

 

4 minutes ago, Taro T said:

 

Wouldn't expect you to agree with that, as I don't either for the VAST majority of people that consider themselves to be to the left.  (See paragraph below it for my version of the less cynical, and likely more correct, answer for why the vast majority of those reflexively countering the suggestion do so.

 

That's why I said "healthy skepticism" of science (not denial) as my views on climate change are more alligned with the right.  These dire predictions by climate change scientests often turn out to be wrong or overstated and we need to keep that in mind when implementing policies.

[Taro T]

1 minute ago, Doc Brown said:

 

That's why I said "healthy skepticism" of science (not denial) as my views on climate change are more alligned with the right.  These dire predictions by climate change scientests often turn out to be wrong or overstated and we need to keep that in mind when implementing policies.

 

Fair enough.  Got hung up on the phrase about the left being "overly reliant on science" and read it differently than you'd intended it to be read. 

 

[Nanker]

2 hours ago, Scraps said:

 

 

Those were interesting links.  Thank you.  I didn't read them as "it's worse than dying" though and I don't think meaningful trials would take 3-4 years.  This is a distortion in my opinion.

You’re welcome. As a point of fact, a very close family relative ran clinical Phase 2, 3, and 4 trials.

My relative ran dozens of these global studies. They are non trivial exercises and that time and tens if not hundreds of millions of dollars to run. 

 

If you’re following morbidity/mortality, it could take more than 5 years - until the event rate of efficacy for the morbidity event, e.g., stroke, heart attack, seizures, or death is documented. The resulting data has to be reviewed by an independent committee to determine if the event met the criteria established by the trial. 
 

It’s only following that process that the data has to be cleaned and normalized and a clinical study report gets written and an application can be filed with the FDA. This has to be done for each indication. That’s the process in the US.
 

In Europe the governing body is the EMEA. Japan has their own regulatory agency. They both have their own processes and requirements. 

 

Oh, and Cancer trials can go on indefinitely. 
 

But doing Clinical Trials to get drug approvals is a snap. Got it. 

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

...why should ANY governor have the power to block a medical treatment OR force their State Health Director to follow their lead?.......governors are now well trained medical experts?......should Big Fredo block my daily dose of BP Meds?........um....er....well...uh...oh......okay.................

[3rdnlng]

34 minutes ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

...why should ANY governor have the power to block a medical treatment OR force their State Health Director to follow their lead?.......governors are now well trained medical experts?......should Big Fredo block my daily dose of BP Meds?........um....er....well...uh...oh......okay.................

All of this depends on whether you live in Virginia or not. 

[KD in CA]

5 hours ago, Taro T said:

 

The cynical answer is because the left would rather see people die than see 45 get "a win."

 

Really believe it is less sinister than that.  The left reflexively believes that anything 45 supports is necessarily wrong or nefarious, sometimes both.  And it takes a bit of doing to get over that reflexive 'this has to be fake or bad' reaction.  That the national level media almost entirely in unison can't stand him being president and most all the people they interact with daily think like mindedly, and it isn't too hard to see why they still can't open up to the possibility that this might work.  And except in very rare cases, at a minimum it won't hurt.

 

I don't see how anyone can look at how the left has acted over the last 3 1/2 years and conclude anything but.

 

Sure, at the individual level you see people rising above politics, but do people actually believe that power brokers like Nancy P wouldn't trade the lives of 20,000 nobodys for a guaranteed Biden win in November?

[LSHMEAB]

17 hours ago, Hedge said:

 

 

And there are 1 or 2 others listed here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Republicans_who_opposed_the_2016_Donald_Trump_presidential_campaign

These are politicians, not voters. They've all been flogged to get in line by the rank and file.

 

Trump's approval rating among Republicans is HISTORIC while Dems are calling their candidate a rapist and the entire Sanders wing is threatening to sit out the election.

 

Orange Man Bad. Orange Man Good. No matter what. If you don't think there's a HUGE swatch of people that fall under BOTH of these categories, I don't think your being honest with yourself.

 

Maybe orange man is ALWAYS good. I suppose that's a valid take. But to pretend both sides haven't twisted themselves in knots to defend a narrative since he came on the scene seems disingenuous.  

[Cinga]

6 hours ago, Scraps said:

 

Can you show me anyone who has been against this?

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=democrats+against+hydroxychloroquine&atb=v168-1&ia=news

[Doc]

5 minutes ago, Cinga said:

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=democrats+against+hydroxychloroquine&atb=v168-1&ia=news

 

Besides them...

[Gene Frenkle]

13 hours ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

So you have problems with all the players?  Trump, his rivals/media that have miscast it as a political issue?  
 

I can see that, but with the world in free fall, I feel like people are able to navigate what the President said.  It wasn’t particularly complicated, it provided some level of reassurance that options were potentially available.  
 

As for a “plain and simple” political gain, that’s in the eye of the beholder. 

So you think it's ok that he was duping America by giving false hope about a drug he certainly had no way of knowing either works or doesn't? I'll stand by it being inappropriate at best. It's almost like he cares more about himself than he does about the rest of us. A gamble so he can maybe say he was right.

[Gene Frenkle]

12 hours ago, Magox said:

 

I'd like to address a few points here:

 

A) I don't believe he began the Hydroxycholoroquine promotion as a political matter.  The positive anecdotal accounts, non randomized small tests out of China and France were being reported by some of conservative outlets.  He piggybacked off of those reports. He is an optimist by nature but he does also like to massage and downplay things that may make him look bad.  Which I think works against him.  Personally, I'd rather have someone who levels with me, ie. the whole downplaying of the Virus and comparing it with the Flu.    If we are going to attempt to get into his motives which you did as well, then my guess is that he was trying to basically say "Hey, there may be a cure".  Trying to communicate some hope.

 

B) I think what probably caught everyone by surprise is the depth of the media's desire to attack Trump on a drug that has shown some signs of hope.   At that point, I do think Trump did make a political calculation.  Referencing my original post, he thinks he has the winning hand.  He could be wrong, but he's not politically stupid.  So logically, that has to be his thinking on it.  He does give himself some wiggle room with the "What the hell do you have to lose?".....If he's right, he's going to use it in a BIGLY fashion on how he has "saved thousands and thousands of lives".  Whether that is the case or not.

 

C) You say just let the "docs do their thing".   Well, I think this is a large reason why he was elected and why he is so controversial.  He's a disruptor (disrupter).  He's unconventional, which makes him a highly polarizing figure.  If he left it up to his health officials, they would have never made any recommendation for it.  Let me tell you why his endorsement of it matters.  There was a limited supply for hydroxycholoroquine and the fear and part of the criticism against Trump promoting it is that it would take up the supplies of those that use it where it is proven to be successful such as Malaria, lupus and rheumatoid arthritis.  What Trump did was secure and purchase more supply.  Without there being a push for it, this very likely would not have happened.  Now as a result of it, you are seeing the state of New York, Michigan, LA. and other states requesting for the federal government to supply them with more of it.   Which means, that if he hadn't had made the promotion of hydroxycholoroquine and it turns out that it does help those afflicted with the Virus, his unconventional style very likely would have ended up helping people out.     

So push for it and stockpile behind the scenes.  That's clearly the thing to do if your scenario is accurate. Saying it publicly, even if he had an informed gut feel, does nothing but give false hope and spike demand. Seems kind of counterproductive.

Edited April 11, 2020 by Gene Frenkle

[GG]

8 hours ago, Scraps said:

 

Can you show me anyone who has been against this?

 

Does this suffice?

[Deranged Rhino]

18 minutes ago, Gene Frenkle said:

So you think it's ok that he was duping America by giving false hope about a drug he certainly had no way of knowing either works or doesn't? I'll stand by it being inappropriate at best. It's almost like he cares more about himself than he does about the rest of us. A gamble so he can maybe say he was right.

 

Are you under the impression he was just making up stuff about the drug from out of the blue rather than repeating what he'd been briefed on by the doctors and experts? Trump, being Trump, lacks the precision of a doctor when he speaks -- but it's becoming more and more apparent that he wasn't giving false hope in the slightest as many doctors are now using the meds to save lives. 

[Magox]

1 minute ago, Gene Frenkle said:

So push for it and stockpile behind the scenes.  That's clearly the thing to do if your scenario is accurate. Saying it publicly, even if he had an informed gut feel, does nothing but give false hope and spike demand? Seems kind of counterproductive.

 

I didn’t say that he was nearly a perfect man.

 

He’s extremely political and the media and him are a perfect match for each other.  
 

The real question Gene is why did the media make such a big deal out of it?  A simple google search shows that it’s a relatively safe and established drug.   Just doesn’t make sense that they potentially committed this huge unforced error.   If Trump ends up being right about this they will have egg in their face and give him a huge victory and talking point going into the elections.

[Buffalo Bills Fan]

1 minute ago, Deranged Rhino said:

 

Are you under the impression he was just making up stuff about the drug from out of the blue rather than repeating what he'd been briefed on by the doctors and experts? Trump, being Trump, lacks the precision of a doctor when he speaks -- but it's becoming more and more apparent that he wasn't giving false hope in the slightest as many doctors are now using the meds to save lives. 

 

Agree DR

[Magox]

10 minutes ago, GG said:

 

Does this suffice?

 

I have been thinking about this today.  Again, this could end up being another terrible unforced error. If Trump ends up being right she’s going to look terrible.   I don’t get who is advising these people.   I would be very interested to hear someone ask Biden what he thinks of Trump promoting HCQ

[Hapless Bills Fan]

On 4/9/2020 at 9:58 AM, Gary Busey said:

 

Agreed - I haven't seen anyone disagree with this. 

 

https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2020/03/29/more-on-cloroquine-azithromycin-and-on-dr-raoult

https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2020/04/06/hydroxychloroquine-update-for-april-6#comment-315877

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.03.31.20048777v1

 

Laters

[Cinga]

More to back up the red blood cell issue posted earlier in this thread

 

https://www.thailandmedical.news/news/must-read-research-reveals-that-covid-19-attacks-hemoglobin-in-red-blood-cells,-rendering-it-incapable-of-transporting-oxygen--current-medical-protoco?fbclid=IwAR1UvgfLkxzvDcgoEJXw07F9cUZt6Ce1zHy5wTTkUtQNUwr04SX1qYwX6UM

 

Quote

Though the virus is able to attack the ACE2 receptors in the lung tissues and cause damage and also while cytokine storms are creating more damage, it is most probability of the body’s inability get enough oxygen along with carbon dioxide build up that is creating the so called ARDS symptoms and stress and current protocols could be all wrong including the usage of ventilators in a non-proper manner way that could actually aggravate  already ‘injured’ and inflamed lungs.

 

this one is the study cited in the above article

 

https://chemrxiv.org/articles/COVID-19_Disease_ORF8_and_Surface_Glycoprotein_Inhibit_Heme_Metabolism_by_Binding_to_Porphyrin/11938173

 

 

 

 

 

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

1 hour ago, Gene Frenkle said:

So you think it's ok that he was duping America by giving false hope about a drug he certainly had no way of knowing either works or doesn't? I'll stand by it being inappropriate at best. It's almost like he cares more about himself than he does about the rest of us. A gamble so he can maybe say he was right.

No, I don’t think that at all.  I think President Trump wants to save as many people as possible, as most presidents would, and he’s pragmatic.  I think his desire, or impulse, to speak what’s on his mind allowed him to cut through the bull#### and tell the American people what he heard, what was being reported, and what the medical professionals at his level shared.  I can see a medical professional suggesting “well, some of what we’re hearing is promising, so, let’s move forward cautiously with trials and....”, I can see him recognizing that people were going to die, and he shared what he had heard.  I’d bet his advisers were telling him to stay quiet, to remain guarded and he thought “F&$# that.”.  In that regard, he’s pretty amazing, assuming of course success follows. 

 

i think you’re 100% flat out wrong, I think he care as much about the people of this country as any President ever has, and more than most in recent memory, but even if you’re right, he wins by American lives being saved.  What’s better for a narcissist (as some see him) than saving lives?   

Edited April 11, 2020 by leh-nerd skin-erd

[3rdnlng]

The MSM is the one constantly bringing up HCQ and making fools of themselves. All Trump is doing is responding.