The Big Gamble: Hydroxychloroquine

[TH3]

Be more assuring if DT spent as much time getting the testing infrastructure in place necessary for economic reopening and or preventing people from getting the virus thaN spending so much time focused on a drug that may anecdotally work ......on people WHO FREAKING GOT THE VIRUS

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

1 hour ago, Gene Frenkle said:

My problem with this whole thing is that it was irresponsible and inappropriate for him to gamble on this by immediately hitching his horse to the HCQ wagon for all to see. It's a gamble to gain political capital, plain and simple. It may turn out that this is an effective treatment and if so, great. I would prefer if he had let the docs do their thing and refrained from giving questionable medical advice, as he's obviously unqualified to do so. Had he just let the experts do their jobs, this would not have turned into the most ridiculous and miscast political issue of the crisis to date.

So you have problems with all the players?  Trump, his rivals/media that have miscast it as a political issue?  
 

I can see that, but with the world in free fall, I feel like people are able to navigate what the President said.  It wasn’t particularly complicated, it provided some level of reassurance that options were potentially available.  
 

As for a “plain and simple” political gain, that’s in the eye of the beholder. 

[Warren Zevon]

1 minute ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

As for a “plain and simple” political gain, that’s in the eye of the beholder. 

 

The President during a briefing bragged that he saved a Democrats life and was now sure she would vote for him

 

#OrangeManBad I know, but that's a fact 

[billsfan1959]

3 minutes ago, Gary Busey said:

 

The President during a briefing bragged that he saved a Democrats life and was now sure she would vote for him

 

#OrangeManBad I know, but that's a fact 

 

How dare he engage in a little levity at a time like this. PEOPLE ARE DYING!!!!! 

 

Except for the Representative, of course, who thanked Trump for saving her life....

[billsfan1959]

29 minutes ago, TH3 said:

Be more assuring if DT spent as much time getting the testing infrastructure in place necessary for economic reopening and or preventing people from getting the virus thaN spending so much time focused on a drug that may anecdotally work ......on people WHO FREAKING GOT THE VIRUS

 

You might have heard about what they are doing if CNN carried the briefings....rather than just watching Acosta interpret them for you.

[Nanker]

21 minutes ago, billsfan1959 said:

 

How dare he engage in a little levity at a time like this. PEOPLE ARE DYING!!!!! 

 

Except for the Representative, of course, who thanked Trump for saving her life....

He should have just said, “If you like your hydroxychloroquine, you can keep your hydroxychloroquine. Period.”

 

How could anyone argue against that?

[SoCal Deek]

41 minutes ago, TH3 said:

Be more assuring if DT spent as much time getting the testing infrastructure in place necessary for economic reopening and or preventing people from getting the virus thaN spending so much time focused on a drug that may anecdotally work ......on people WHO FREAKING GOT THE VIRUS

The federal government DOES NOT make the tests. They’re made by private industry! Do you think there’s a big factory under the Smithsonian? What the industry is saying is that at the MOST they are able to make 500,000 per WEEK! That means it will take over a year to make 300 million years. Come on man! Lay off the testing pipe dream. It’ll help give better data but it’s not a cure. After conducting 2 million tests I believe they have more than enough tests to understand how the virus operates, and presents itself.

[Foxx]

12 hours ago, Q-baby! said:

Yeah, shocking that people would be less likely to want to take a drug recommended by a shyster than they would from their doctor. ???

 

You want to promote a possible remedy, don’t use a snake oil salesman. 

you're an idiot.

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

40 minutes ago, Gary Busey said:

 

The President during a briefing bragged that he saved a Democrats life and was now sure she would vote for him

 

#OrangeManBad I know, but that's a fact 

I wasn't under the impression that was GF's point, the President's initial comments on the drug came two-three weeks before the democrat thanked him for elevating the status of the drug as a potential option that she believes saved her life.  

 

I think her comments were heartfelt and transcended politics, in what bizarro world should he be criticized a response for her acknowledgment of appreciation?  It happens, think Chris Christie praising BO after Hurricane Sandy. 

 

 

 

 

[shoshin]

21 hours ago, Magox said:

I kind of view this as a poker game.  On one hand you have Trump and the other you have the media.

 

Trump looks at his hand and he thinks he has the winning hand.  Whatever he is seeing, he believes he can win with.  The media, not really knowing exactly what they have, other than they believe that Trump is full sh*t and lies all the time, believe that whatever Trump believes is wrong.

 

This is truly one of the biggest gambles that Trump is making, and every time he touts Hydroxychloroquine as a possible savior, he keeps upping up the ante, and the media keeps calling him.

 

If Trump ends up being right on this, it vastly improves his chances at winning the November elections because he could then say that:

 

A) I banned China Travel that saved thousands of lives, when Biden and everyone else was against it.

B) I promoted Hydroxychloroquine despite all the negative press.  And I was right, they were wrong.  I saved thousands and thousands of lives.  Thank God that doctors listened to me.

 

It will be a powerful fact that he will be able to weaponize against Biden and the media.

 

On the other hand, if he is wrong.  The amount of criticism he will get from the press will be almost unbearable.  It will be played on loop all the way till the day of the elections.  He can recover, but it will hurt.

 

 

With all that said, this is a sad state of affairs that this is a political matter.  It's only political because Trump is promoting it and the media hates him.  At a time when there is a pandemic raging throughout the world, prescribing a relatively safe drug that has shown strong anecdotal instances of helping people, I don't see how anyone could be against doctors prescribing a potentially life-saving drug that has minimal health risks on an off-label prescription.  This is up to doctors and their relationship with their patients.   It's mind boggling, and it truly is yet another example of the corporate establishment media being a broken entity.

 

Not much of a gamble. He gambled on saying CV-19 was under control, cases would go to zero, etc. He just says things. When he's wrong, he gets called on it and his supporters don't care. When he's right, his supporters yell at the media and the media doesn't care. 

 

In November, the voters can decide if he did a good job. If HCQ works, it won't be because Trump got the science right, but just because he guessed right. And that's fine. I hope he guessed right. I'd have rather he guessed right on controlling the outbreak though. 

 

Fauci, you'll note, didn't guess. He just keeps saying we have to wait and see. And he's not against the field tests. That's a scientific mind. He understands the stakes and is fine with testing it in the field due to what is happening, but he's not drawing conclusions. I love the anecdotal evidence--keep it coming. We need any good news we can get with respect to controlling the virus because distancing is a devastating way to do it. 

 

I have been on HCQ and I know others who have as well (they give it to you before you go to malaria-risk countries). It sucked for me (I'm very healthy otherwise) and I had to stop after two days. I probably couldn't take it, and when my doctor prescribed it, she gave be a truckload of warning signs to look for. But that's n of 1. Others I know have had limited issues. 

Edited April 10, 2020 by shoshin

[Warren Zevon]

Just now, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

I think her comments were heartfelt and transcended politics, in what bizarro world should he be criticized a response for her acknowledgment of appreciation?  It happens, think Chris Christie praising BO after Hurricane Sandy. 

 

I think her comments were too. Trump was more interested in letting everyone know she was a Democrat than letting anyone even know her name. He did it for political gain.

 

IMO

[Magox]

6 minutes ago, shoshin said:

 

Not much of a gamble. He gambled on saying CV-19 was under control, cases would go to zero, etc. He just says things. When he's wrong, he gets called on it and his supporters don't care. When he's right, his supporters yell at the media and the media doesn't care. 

 

In November, the voters can decide if he did a good job. If HCQ works, it won't be because Trump got the science right, but just because he guessed right. And that's fine. I hope he guessed right. I'd have rather he guessed right on controlling the outbreak though. 

 

Fauci, you'll note, didn't guess. He just keeps saying we have to wait and see. And he's not against the field tests. That's a scientific mind. He understands the stakes and is fine with testing it in the field due to what is happening, but he's not drawing conclusions. I love the anecdotal evidence--keep it coming. We need any good news we can get with respect to controlling the virus because distancing is a devastating way to do it. 

 

I have been on HCQ and I know others who have as well (they give it to you before you go to malaria-risk countries). It sucked for me (I'm very healthy otherwise) and I had to stop after two days. I probably couldn't take it, and when my doctor prescribed it, she gave be a truckload of warning signs to look for. But that's n of 1. Others I know have had limited issues. 

 

Just like Doc, you are misunderstanding the context of the “gamble”. Go back and read my response to Doc.

[SoCal Deek]

1 minute ago, Gary Busey said:

 

I think her comments were too. Trump was more interested in letting everyone know she was a Democrat than letting anyone even know her name. He did it for political gain.

 

IMO

Oh come on! He didn’t do it for POLITICAL gain! He’s not running against this lady! Geeez! He did it show some that some things actually transcend politics. My God people....I know you don’t like Trump, but this is an example of the exact OPPOSITE of politics. (Face plant!)

[Foxx]

2 hours ago, Gene Frenkle said:

My problem with this whole thing is that it was irresponsible and inappropriate for him to gamble on this by immediately hitching his horse to the HCQ wagon for all to see. It's a gamble to gain political capital, plain and simple. It may turn out that this is an effective treatment and if so, great. I would prefer if he had let the docs do their thing and refrained from giving questionable medical advice, as he's obviously unqualified to do so. Had he just let the experts do their jobs, this would not have turned into the most ridiculous and miscast political issue of the crisis to date.

you're an idiot.

[Warren Zevon]

1 minute ago, SoCal Deek said:

Oh come on! He didn’t do it for POLITICAL gain! He’s not running against this lady! Geeez! He did it show some that some things actually transcend politics.

 

What's her name? Don't look it up.

[SoCal Deek]

1 minute ago, Gary Busey said:

 

What's her name? Don't look it up.

I’m not sure where you’re going there. Give me a hint. 

[Warren Zevon]

Just now, SoCal Deek said:

I’m not sure where you’re going there. Give me a hint. 

 

You know the woman's political party but not her name because it was about politics.

[Doc]

2 hours ago, Gene Frenkle said:

My problem with this whole thing is that it was irresponsible and inappropriate for him to gamble on this by immediately hitching his horse to the HCQ wagon for all to see. It's a gamble to gain political capital, plain and simple. It may turn out that this is an effective treatment and if so, great. I would prefer if he had let the docs do their thing and refrained from giving questionable medical advice, as he's obviously unqualified to do so. Had he just let the experts do their jobs, this would not have turned into the most ridiculous and miscast political issue of the crisis to date.

 

Again it wasn't a gamble.  HCQ has been known for years to inhibit these types of RNA viruses, going back to SARS, it's safe for the vast majority of people (not that it matters when you're talking about a deadly disease) and there is no other treatment at present.  He found out about this, obviously talked with doctors, and then started pushing it.

 

7 minutes ago, shoshin said:

Not much of a gamble. He gambled on saying CV-19 was under control, cases would go to zero, etc. He just says things. When he's wrong, he gets called on it and his supporters don't care. When he's right, his supporters yell at the media and the media doesn't care. 

 

In November, the voters can decide if he did a good job. If HCQ works, it won't be because Trump got the science right, but just because he guessed right. And that's fine. I hope he guessed right. I'd have rather he guessed right on controlling the outbreak though. 

 

Fauci, you'll note, didn't guess. He just keeps saying we have to wait and see. And he's not against the field tests. That's a scientific mind. He understands the stakes and is fine with testing it in the field due to what is happening, but he's not drawing conclusions. I love the anecdotal evidence--keep it coming. We need any good news we can get with respect to controlling the virus because distancing is a devastating way to do it. 

 

I have been on HCQ and I know others who have as well (they give it to you before you go to malaria-risk countries). It sucked for me (I'm very healthy otherwise). But that's n of 1. Others I know have had limited issues. 

 

It wasn't a gamble, much less a guess.  See above.

 

As for Fauci, his opinion is wrong.  I'm not sure why he's insistent on seeing clinical trials first and I hope there's nothing nefarious behind it.  But that's why there are second opinions.

 

2 hours ago, Doc Brown said:

If it wasn't so serious I would find it funny.  Hey, I'm going to provide some people hope with a relatively safe drug based off some anecdotal success stories (possible placebo effect) as we don't have time for large scale clinical trials as we want to save lives.  Makes sense to most people.  Media -  HOW DARE YOU. 

 

I don't see this being a gamble as the OP made it out to be as the rift between the media and Trump has gotten predictable and boring.  My guess is there will be anecdotal stories of hydroxycholoquine being a success and others about it not helping at all.  The research will be inconclusive.  There will pry be a case where someone dies of heart failure and the media will blame it as a side effect of hydroxycholoquine.  As far as the election is concerned, the people that ultimately decide who wins don't even pay attention until after labor day.  There will be a million news cycles between now and then.

 

The trials won't be inconclusive.

[Doc]

12 minutes ago, Gary Busey said:

I think her comments were too. Trump was more interested in letting everyone know she was a Democrat than letting anyone even know her name. He did it for political gain.

 

IMO

 

...and?  How many things are being done for political gain during this crisis?  You don't think that the Dems and MSM pooh-poohing HCQ isn't for political gain?

 

His point is that a Democrat, especially a (state) Congress person, saying it works carries more weight than someone else.

[Magox]

4 hours ago, Gene Frenkle said:

My problem with this whole thing is that it was irresponsible and inappropriate for him to gamble on this by immediately hitching his horse to the HCQ wagon for all to see. It's a gamble to gain political capital, plain and simple. It may turn out that this is an effective treatment and if so, great. I would prefer if he had let the docs do their thing and refrained from giving questionable medical advice, as he's obviously unqualified to do so. Had he just let the experts do their jobs, this would not have turned into the most ridiculous and miscast political issue of the crisis to date.

 

I'd like to address a few points here:

 

A) I don't believe he began the Hydroxycholoroquine promotion as a political matter.  The positive anecdotal accounts, non randomized small tests out of China and France were being reported by some of conservative outlets.  He piggybacked off of those reports. He is an optimist by nature but he does also like to massage and downplay things that may make him look bad.  Which I think works against him.  Personally, I'd rather have someone who levels with me, ie. the whole downplaying of the Virus and comparing it with the Flu.    If we are going to attempt to get into his motives which you did as well, then my guess is that he was trying to basically say "Hey, there may be a cure".  Trying to communicate some hope.

 

B) I think what probably caught everyone by surprise is the depth of the media's desire to attack Trump on a drug that has shown some signs of hope.   At that point, I do think Trump did make a political calculation.  Referencing my original post, he thinks he has the winning hand.  He could be wrong, but he's not politically stupid.  So logically, that has to be his thinking on it.  He does give himself some wiggle room with the "What the hell do you have to lose?".....If he's right, he's going to use it in a BIGLY fashion on how he has "saved thousands and thousands of lives".  Whether that is the case or not.

 

C) You say just let the "docs do their thing".   Well, I think this is a large reason why he was elected and why he is so controversial.  He's a disruptor (disrupter).  He's unconventional, which makes him a highly polarizing figure.  If he left it up to his health officials, they would have never made any recommendation for it.  Let me tell you why his endorsement of it matters.  There was a limited supply for hydroxycholoroquine and the fear and part of the criticism against Trump promoting it is that it would take up the supplies of those that use it where it is proven to be successful such as Malaria, lupus and rheumatoid arthritis.  What Trump did was secure and purchase more supply.  Without there being a push for it, this very likely would not have happened.  Now as a result of it, you are seeing the state of New York, Michigan, LA. and other states requesting for the federal government to supply them with more of it.   Which means, that if he hadn't had made the promotion of hydroxycholoroquine and it turns out that it does help those afflicted with the Virus, his unconventional style very likely would have ended up helping people out.     

Edited April 10, 2020 by Magox