Doc Posted April 11, 2020 Posted April 11, 2020 4 minutes ago, Scraps said: No, its just a stupid question because the average person has no idea how many people have died from Hydroxychloroquine. You want to prove yourself? Answer your own question. You tell me how many people have die of hydroxychloroquine. You tell me how many people suffering from Covid-19 have been pulled of of hydroxychloroquine because they could not tolerate the drug? You tell me how many people who died with Covid-19 could have been saved if only they were given hydroxychloroquine? If you can't answer all of those questions, then it is unfair to expect me to do so. You're the one claiming it's dangerous to use. Therefore you have the burden of proof. Saying "come on, don't you think..." isn't a answer. 2
Magox Posted April 11, 2020 Author Posted April 11, 2020 It’s not a dangerous drug unless you take too much of it or if you have certain other medical conditions . Just like every other Freaking drug. 2 1
Scraps Posted April 11, 2020 Posted April 11, 2020 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Doc said: You're the one claiming it's dangerous to use. Therefore you have the burden of proof. Saying "come on, don't you think..." isn't a answer. https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/mayo-clinic-cardiologist-inexcusable-ignore-hydroxychloroquine-side-effects-n1178776 I posted that earlier today. Again, you can't read, Edited April 11, 2020 by Scraps
Chef Jim Posted April 11, 2020 Posted April 11, 2020 5 minutes ago, Scraps said: No, its just a stupid question because the average person has no idea how many people have died from Hydroxychloroquine. You want to prove yourself? Answer your own question. You tell me how many people have die of hydroxychloroquine. You tell me how many people suffering from Covid-19 have been pulled of of hydroxychloroquine because they could not tolerate the drug? You tell me how many people who died with Covid-19 could have been saved if only they were given hydroxychloroquine? If you can't answer all of those questions, then it is unfair to expect me to do so. So you're crying and pissing and moaning about these LETHAL side effects when in reality you have no ***** idea how LETHAL these side effects are. You're crying, pissing and moaning about all these people being PULLED of the drug because they couldn't tolerate it when in reality you have no ***** idea how commonplace this is. It's not for us to prove these things. It's up to you to prove them because YOU'RE the one that brought it up. This has been my whole point. You're playing chicken little when you have no idea how may acorns have actually fallen from the sky.
Scraps Posted April 11, 2020 Posted April 11, 2020 (edited) 19 minutes ago, Chef Jim said: So you're crying and pissing and moaning about these LETHAL side effects when in reality you have no ***** idea how LETHAL these side effects are. You're crying, pissing and moaning about all these people being PULLED of the drug because they couldn't tolerate it when in reality you have no ***** idea how commonplace this is. It's not for us to prove these things. It's up to you to prove them because YOU'RE the one that brought it up. This has been my whole point. You're playing chicken little when you have no idea how may acorns have actually fallen from the sky. Conversely, you have no idea how safe it is nor the efficacy, particularly for someone on a ventilator. Hence the reason why I have said repeatedly that it should be subjected to clinical studies and given for compassionate use. Edited April 11, 2020 by Scraps
Chef Jim Posted April 11, 2020 Posted April 11, 2020 1 hour ago, Scraps said: Conversely, you have no idea how safe it is nor the efficacy, particularly for someone on a ventilator. Hence the reason why I have said repeatedly that it should be subjected to clinical studies and given for compassionate use. Im still trying to figure where came to the conclusion that the reason it’s not offered OTC is because of the lethal side effects. How did you arrive at that conclusion? Also again what is the level of these LETHAL side effects that you brought up? What percentage of people on the drug have died from it. Do you even know? Does ANYONE know?
Scraps Posted April 11, 2020 Posted April 11, 2020 9 minutes ago, Chef Jim said: Im still trying to figure where came to the conclusion that the reason it’s not offered OTC is because of the lethal side effects. How did you arrive at that conclusion? Also again what is the level of these LETHAL side effects that you brought up? What percentage of people on the drug have died from it. Do you even know? Does ANYONE know? How many people who died of Covid-19 would have been saved if only they had Hydroxychloroquine?
Chef Jim Posted April 11, 2020 Posted April 11, 2020 1 minute ago, Scraps said: How many people who died of Covid-19 would have been saved if only they had Hydroxychloroquine? That is impossible to quantify, which you know, whereas the number of people that have died as a direct result (your LETHAL side effect assertion) is absolutely quantifiable. Sooooo how many have had LETHAL side effects? Come on man. inquirin’ minds wanna know. Can you at least with some level of certainty say a few? A bunch? A lot? A smidge? A schtickle?
Scraps Posted April 11, 2020 Posted April 11, 2020 1 minute ago, Chef Jim said: That is impossible to quantify, which you know, whereas the number of people that have died as a direct result (your LETHAL side effect assertion) is absolutely quantifiable. Sooooo how many have had LETHAL side effects? Come on man. inquirin’ minds wanna know. Can you at least with some level of certainty say a few? A bunch? A lot? A smidge? A schtickle? It is a similarly impossible question to answer, as I said quite a while ago.
Chef Jim Posted April 11, 2020 Posted April 11, 2020 3 minutes ago, Scraps said: It is a similarly impossible question to answer, as I said quite a while ago. No it’s not. Not at all. There is a definitive number of people that have had a LETHAL side effect from the drug. You just have no clue how many. None whatsoever. Can you at least admit to that?
Nanker Posted April 11, 2020 Posted April 11, 2020 On 4/10/2020 at 12:14 PM, Scraps said: Can you show me anyone who has been against this? On 4/10/2020 at 12:49 PM, Nanker said: Sure. According to these reports it's worse than dying. It must be tested under clinical trials that last for at least 3 - 4 years before Dr.s should be allowed to use it. Hey, if it can save one person in 5 - 6 years from now, it'll probably be worth burying 20 - 30 million people before we get to that date. https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/why-trump-wrong-about-hydroxychloroquine-it-wont-help-treat-coronavirus-140862 https://www.factcheck.org/2020/03/trump-hypes-potential-covid-19-drugs-but-evidence-so-far-is-slim/ https://www.indiatoday.in/india-today-insight/story/covid-19-the-bitter-truth-about-using-hydroxychloroquine-as-a-preventive-drug-1659116-2020-03-24 https://www.floridatoday.com/story/news/2020/03/24/trump-backs-covid-19-hydroxychloroquine-and-azithromycin-therapy-weak-science/2904846001/ https://www.huffpost.com/entry/ama-president-trump-hydroxychloroquine_n_5e8a9914c5b6e7d76c663197 On 4/10/2020 at 1:02 PM, Scraps said: Those were interesting links. Thank you. I didn't read them as "it's worse than dying" though and I don't think meaningful trials would take 3-4 years. This is a distortion in my opinion. On 4/10/2020 at 3:36 PM, Nanker said: You’re welcome. As a point of fact, a very close family relative ran clinical Phase 2, 3, and 4 trials. My relative ran dozens of these global studies. They are non trivial exercises and that time and tens if not hundreds of millions of dollars to run. If you’re following morbidity/mortality, it could take more than 5 years - until the event rate of efficacy for the morbidity event, e.g., stroke, heart attack, seizures, or death is documented. The resulting data has to be reviewed by an independent committee to determine if the event met the criteria established by the trial. It’s only following that process that the data has to be cleaned and normalized and a clinical study report gets written and an application can be filed with the FDA. This has to be done for each indication. That’s the process in the US. In Europe the governing body is the EMEA. Japan has their own regulatory agency. They both have their own processes and requirements. Oh, and Cancer trials can go on indefinitely. But doing Clinical Trials to get drug approvals is a snap. Got it. Well, we’re waiting. You have your opinion. Others have the facts. Clinical trials last for years, years... YEARS!!!! 2
Scraps Posted April 11, 2020 Posted April 11, 2020 2 minutes ago, Chef Jim said: No it’s not. Not at all. There is a definitive number of people that have had a LETHAL side effect from the drug. You just have no clue how many. None whatsoever. Can you at least admit to that? I admitted that a long time ago, which doesn't change the fact that the drug has lethal side effects 3 minutes ago, Nanker said: Well, we’re waiting. You have your opinion. Others have the facts. Clinical trials last for years, years... YEARS!!!! 3 minutes ago, Nanker said: Well, we’re waiting. You have your opinion. Others have the facts. Clinical trials last for years, years... YEARS!!!! From one of the links you provided " Dr. Megan Ranney, an emergency room physician and researcher at Brown University, echoed these remarks in a subsequent interview. She said the president’s advice to Americans made her “nervous” and there is, in fact, a “lot to lose.” “This medication has major side effects including paranoia, hallucinations, suicidal thoughts, suppression of your blood counts so that you become more susceptible to infections. It can cause severe cardiac arrhythmias that can even cause death,” she said. “They are not common side effects, but they are common enough that this should not be taken willy-nilly. It is not like water, it is not harmless, and it may have major side effects.” She said she expected results from clinical trials for the drug to come through in as soon as a month or two." I'll take the her word over yours.
Koko78 Posted April 11, 2020 Posted April 11, 2020 3 hours ago, Scraps said: Why is this a Republican vs Deomocrat medication? Like Dr Ackerman, I don't get that. I'm not really either but it seem like the right wing media is making this a cultural divide issue. It's a Republican vs. Democrat medication because Trump dared to speak it. The juvenile #resistance immediately started attacking Trump, and attacking the medication. It's all out there. The media was reporting favorably on the treatment until Trump brought it up. Then it became the devil with horrific side effects that needs years of study before it can be safely used to help people who need it now. Here's a clue: it wasn't the "right wing media" that went histrionic after Trump mentioned the medication. It's not the "right wing media" who pushes any idiotic story or opinion that trashes Trump, even if people die because of it. These are the same types of media who act like clowns at press conferences, then decide to no longer air them, because Trump's approval numbers were going up (and theirs were going down.) 'Resist at all costs' has been the strategy of the left and their media partners for 3.5 years. If you can't see that by now, you're either willfully blind or plain stupid. 4 1
3rdnlng Posted April 11, 2020 Posted April 11, 2020 5 minutes ago, Scraps said: I admitted that a long time ago, which doesn't change the fact that the drug has lethal side effects From one of the links you provided " Dr. Megan Ranney, an emergency room physician and researcher at Brown University, echoed these remarks in a subsequent interview. She said the president’s advice to Americans made her “nervous” and there is, in fact, a “lot to lose.” “This medication has major side effects including paranoia, hallucinations, suicidal thoughts, suppression of your blood counts so that you become more susceptible to infections. It can cause severe cardiac arrhythmias that can even cause death,” she said. “They are not common side effects, but they are common enough that this should not be taken willy-nilly. It is not like water, it is not harmless, and it may have major side effects.” She said she expected results from clinical trials for the drug to come through in as soon as a month or two." I'll take the her word over yours. Only a month or two? Do you mind if I copy this so that I can send it out to the doctors giving care to those people who may very well be on their deathbeds? I'm sure this will make them feel so much better. 1 minute ago, Koko78 said: It's a Republican vs. Democrat medication because Trump dared to speak it. The juvenile #resistance immediately started attacking Trump, and attacking the medication. It's all out there. The media was reporting favorably on the treatment until Trump brought it up. Then it became the devil with horrific side effects that needs years of study before it can be safely used to help people who need it now. Here's a clue: it wasn't the "right wing media" that went histrionic after Trump mentioned the medication. It's not the "right wing media" who pushes any idiotic story or opinion that trashes Trump, even if people die because of it. These are the same types of media who act like clowns at press conferences, then decide to no longer air them, because Trump's approval numbers were going up (and theirs were going down.) 'Resist at all costs' has been the strategy of the left and their media partners for 3.5 years. If you can't see that by now, you're either willfully blind or plain stupid. Can't he be both?
Scraps Posted April 11, 2020 Posted April 11, 2020 Just now, 3rdnlng said: Only a month or two? Do you mind if I copy this so that I can send it out to the doctors giving care to those people who may very well be on their deathbeds? I'm sure this will make them feel so much better. Sure, go right ahead. I've seen very little from doctors of medicine supporting this treatment. Mostly it has come from Trump, Fox News and their marks.
Koko78 Posted April 11, 2020 Posted April 11, 2020 2 minutes ago, Scraps said: Sure, go right ahead. I've seen very little from doctors of medicine supporting this treatment. Mostly it has come from Trump, Fox News and their marks. Try taking off the blinders. It's pretty easy to see much more when you're not myopically focused on the bad orange man. 1
3rdnlng Posted April 11, 2020 Posted April 11, 2020 Just now, Scraps said: Sure, go right ahead. I've seen very little from doctors of medicine supporting this treatment. Mostly it has come from Trump, Fox News and their marks. No, there's many medical professionals that have seen some good results. I've heard them asked if they'd take it themselves if circumstances were ripe for them to take it and they said they would. I've also heard that doctors and nurses who were tending to the coronavirus crowd or even in just the same hospital have taken it for their own protection.
Scraps Posted April 11, 2020 Posted April 11, 2020 Just now, Koko78 said: Try taking off the blinders. It's pretty easy to see much more when you're not myopically focused on the bad orange man. No blinders. I'm a research engineer by training and expect proof.
Nanker Posted April 11, 2020 Posted April 11, 2020 13 minutes ago, Scraps said: I admitted that a long time ago, which doesn't change the fact that the drug has lethal side effects From one of the links you provided " Dr. Megan Ranney, an emergency room physician and researcher at Brown University, echoed these remarks in a subsequent interview. She said the president’s advice to Americans made her “nervous” and there is, in fact, a “lot to lose.” “This medication has major side effects including paranoia, hallucinations, suicidal thoughts, suppression of your blood counts so that you become more susceptible to infections. It can cause severe cardiac arrhythmias that can even cause death,” she said. “They are not common side effects, but they are common enough that this should not be taken willy-nilly. It is not like water, it is not harmless, and it may have major side effects.” She said she expected results from clinical trials for the drug to come through in as soon as a month or two." I'll take the her word over yours. You’re the one advocating doing clinical trials, yet you know NOTHING about what that entails. And you say other people want people to die.
Koko78 Posted April 11, 2020 Posted April 11, 2020 Just now, Scraps said: No blinders. I'm a research engineer by training and expect proof. Yet you've ignored "proof" at every turn when others have presented it. 2
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