BruceVilanch Posted April 10, 2020 Share Posted April 10, 2020 15 hours ago, Call_Of_Ktulu said: If Whaley was such a good GM why is he in the XFL? No other NFL team wanted anything to do with him when we released him. It's so confusing because he had such a good pedigree coming out of Pittsburgh and he said all the right things early on. I am actually pretty surprised that no one else took a shot with him as an assistant or at least part of a staff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil The Thrill Posted April 10, 2020 Share Posted April 10, 2020 (edited) 8 hours ago, chris heff said: Yeah Phil you’re right looking at it as a fan. Polian got fired from two other jobs and went on to TV. Ralph lived into his nineties, did something he loved and built for a lifetime. Ralph died and his family sold a franchise that Ralph bought for $25k for $1.4b. The Wilson foundation then used part of that money to enhance both Buffalo and Detroit. If that isn’t enough for you than as a fan maybe you can appreciate that Ralph made moving the Bills very difficult for new ownership. How’d that turn out for fans. LOL You’re right, Ralph ran the team into his 90’s. He RAN the team straight into the ground. The drought was the darkest time in franchise history and it’s all on the shoulders of 1 person - Ralph! Your argument is a little confusing but it goes back to the question - what makes a good professional sports owner? You see to prioritize Ralph’s charitable contributions over the sub par football product he put on the field for decades. This IMO is what makes Ralph’s legacy so conflicting. He did a lot of good for the area but did a lot of bad on the field. Look - Dick Jauron was a really nice guy. I met him on several occasions when he coached here and he was a gentleman. But when people bring up Jauron, all they talk about was the terrible football he was responsible for. Not what a nice guy he was. So while you can acknowledge his generosity to the area, the fact remains - for the last 2 decades of his ownership .... Ralph was a TERRIBLE NFL owner when it came to putting together a good on-field product for his very loyal and dedicated customers. Edited April 10, 2020 by Phil The Thrill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Call_Of_Ktulu Posted April 10, 2020 Share Posted April 10, 2020 7 hours ago, BruceVilanch said: It's so confusing because he had such a good pedigree coming out of Pittsburgh and he said all the right things early on. I am actually pretty surprised that no one else took a shot with him as an assistant or at least part of a staff. Why is it confusing? If your are a good welder you will find a job. If you are a good truck driver you will find a job. If you are a bad GM no team will sign you and you will be in the XFL. If you are a bad TE like Croom no team will sign you and you will be in the XFL. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil The Thrill Posted April 10, 2020 Share Posted April 10, 2020 8 hours ago, chris heff said: You and Phil keep looking at this from a fans perspective. What did fans do after Polian was fired? We kept filling the stadium, watching games on TV and buying jerseys. From a business stand point Ralph lost nothing by defending his daughter and firing Polian. Ralph still built a business he started for $25k to $1.4 b. Right.... but before you sell Polian short remember this - part of the reason for the success after he was wrongly fired was because Ralph and John Butler were able to coast with the roster Polian built for several seasons. A few years later Butler was able to add a few more important pieces to help, but the core of the teams from 95-99 still was largely comprised of Bills that Polian brought onto the team. Once those “core” players were no longer there...it was the darkest time in franchise history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted April 10, 2020 Share Posted April 10, 2020 23 hours ago, chris heff said: And he’s still a jerk. Article in the Athletic by Matthew Fairburn. Takes no responsibility, blames anyone and everything. “You know what’s funny?” Williams said. “When I was in Buffalo, I knew something was wrong when they drafted Jonathan Williams. I knew something was up. Y’all had alternative plans. Y’all bring Reggie Bush to camp and allowed him to practice? Reggie Bush went negative rushing yards for the season. And y’all release me? Doug Whaley can eat a dick. Doug Whaley can die in a hole and drink bleach. I’m dead serious. The reason I didn’t play in the XFL is because Doug Whaley’s name was on it. I’m dead serious.” He's not wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil The Thrill Posted April 10, 2020 Share Posted April 10, 2020 6 minutes ago, Call_Of_Ktulu said: Why is it confusing? If your are a good welder you will find a job. If you are a good truck driver you will find a job. If you are a bad GM no team will sign you and you will be in the XFL. If you are a bad TE like Croom no team will sign you and you will be in the XFL. I think the last few months in Buffalo did a lot of damage to his prospects at getting another GM position. With that being said, while I don’t see him as a GM I do think he would be a good scout or someone to help evaluate pro personnel. 1 minute ago, Joe in Winslow said: He's not wrong. Reggie was so bad that year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codyny13 Posted April 10, 2020 Share Posted April 10, 2020 23 hours ago, MJS said: There will be another similar thread about Karlos making a comeback in a year or two. Karlos will never actually make a comeback. He’ll always come back...to the dinner table. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris heff Posted April 10, 2020 Author Share Posted April 10, 2020 46 minutes ago, Phil The Thrill said: LOL You’re right, Ralph ran the team into his 90’s. He RAN the team straight into the ground. The drought was the darkest time in franchise history and it’s all on the shoulders of 1 person - Ralph! Your argument is a little confusing but it goes back to the question - what makes a good professional sports owner? You see to prioritize Ralph’s charitable contributions over the sub par football product he put on the field for decades. This IMO is what makes Ralph’s legacy so conflicting. He did a lot of good for the area but did a lot of bad on the field. Look - Dick Jauron was a really nice guy. I met him on several occasions when he coached here and he was a gentleman. But when people bring up Jauron, all they talk about was the terrible football he was responsible for. Not what a nice guy he was. So while you can acknowledge his generosity to the area, the fact remains - for the last 2 decades of his ownership .... Ralph was a TERRIBLE NFL owner when it came to putting together a good on-field product for his very loyal and dedicated customers. Finally we agree on something Ralph wasn’t a good owner, but he was a good businessman, and a nice man. I met him once in a hotel lobby. I told him I was a Bills fan and that someone in my family has had season tickets since 1960. He talked to me for about fifteen minutes. He loved the Bills and he loved the fans. I’m not sure drought was darkest time, maybe. Losing to Miami for a decade was pretty bag. I was at a game at the Rockpile when Ed Rutkowski played QB, that late sixties team was epically bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Otreply Posted April 10, 2020 Share Posted April 10, 2020 7 hours ago, chris heff said: You and Phil keep looking at this from a fans perspective. What did fans do after Polian was fired? We kept filling the stadium, watching games on TV and buying jerseys. From a business stand point Ralph lost nothing by defending his daughter and firing Polian. Ralph still built a business he started for $25k to $1.4 b. Sure his family made a big profit on the sale of the team, but it wasn’t some genius maneuver by Ralph, he rode the coat tails of the NFL wave, and waited long enough. What Ralph lost was his and his organizations reputation to the point the other owners merely tolerated him, and most quality NFL players stopped wanting to play for the Buffalo Bills, and many still don’t want to, it has taken two decades, new owners and front office, to include the firing of all remaining employees Ralph hired to right the ship, and that repair work is still ongoing. At times Ralph was a useful owner, but by and large he was a really bad the majority of the time, (like Cleveland Browns bad) the best business moves since the merger were hiring BP and selling the team to Terry and Kim. I’m a vocal fan of the team, but I’m not drinking the Ralph Koolaid... nuthin but luv fellow fan. ? Go Bills!!! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris heff Posted April 10, 2020 Author Share Posted April 10, 2020 7 minutes ago, Don Otreply said: Sure his family made a big profit on the sale of the team, but it wasn’t some genius maneuver by Ralph, he rode the coat tails of the NFL wave, and waited long enough. What Ralph lost was his and his organizations reputation to the point the other owners merely tolerated him, and most quality NFL players stopped wanting to play for the Buffalo Bills, and many still don’t want to, it has taken two decades, new owners and front office, to include the firing of all remaining employees Ralph hired to right the ship, and that repair work is still ongoing. At times Ralph was a useful owner, but by and large he was a really bad the majority of the time, (like Cleveland Browns bad) the best business moves since the merger were hiring BP and selling the team to Terry and Kim. I’m a vocal fan of the team, but I’m not drinking the Ralph Koolaid... nuthin but luv fellow fan. ? Go Bills!!! Ralph was not a good franchise owner, but without Ralph Wilson the AFL would have gone out of business. Not only did he invest in the Bills, but he bailed out both the Oakland Raiders and The New York Titans. Had he not done that in all likelihood the league would have collapsed. Which means no merger and no Buffalo Bills. If that perspective is “drinking the Ralph Koolaid”, then keep it coming and don’t break the rhythm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jauronimo Posted April 10, 2020 Share Posted April 10, 2020 4 hours ago, DrDawkinstein said: One interesting point and a big knock I'll give Whaley, even as a "Whaley Apologist" ? is that all players, whether class-acts like Fitz/Freddie/Eric Wood, dumbasses like Karlos, or somewhere in between like Aaron Williams... ALL seem to hate him. I might say it's because everyone hates their boss and the guy who ultimately cuts/trades/negotiates against their contract, but I get the exact opposite feeling of how players feel about Beane when they jump at the chance to re-sign with him or follow him to another team. I was thinking the same thing. I don't think McCoy is crazy about Beane but part of that is his pride/ego. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rico Posted April 10, 2020 Share Posted April 10, 2020 I have to give Polian the benefit of the doubt, she looked just like Ralph. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrDawkinstein Posted April 10, 2020 Share Posted April 10, 2020 1 minute ago, Jauronimo said: I was thinking the same thing. I don't think McCoy is crazy about Beane but part of that is his pride/ego. He probably doesnt love Beane, but he should respect that Beane made sure to trade him to his old coach and a good team where he would be well taken care of. If he doesnt appreciate that now, he will in time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil The Thrill Posted April 10, 2020 Share Posted April 10, 2020 48 minutes ago, chris heff said: Finally we agree on something Ralph wasn’t a good owner, but he was a good businessman, and a nice man. I met him once in a hotel lobby. I told him I was a Bills fan and that someone in my family has had season tickets since 1960. He talked to me for about fifteen minutes. He loved the Bills and he loved the fans. I’m not sure drought was darkest time, maybe. Losing to Miami for a decade was pretty bag. I was at a game at the Rockpile when Ed Rutkowski played QB, that late sixties team was epically bad. I wasn’t around then, so I’ll have to take your word on that 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrDawkinstein Posted April 10, 2020 Share Posted April 10, 2020 30 minutes ago, chris heff said: Ralph was not a good franchise owner, but without Ralph Wilson the AFL would have gone out of business. Not only did he invest in the Bills, but he bailed out both the Oakland Raiders and The New York Titans. Had he not done that in all likelihood the league would have collapsed. Which means no merger and no Buffalo Bills. If that perspective is “drinking the Ralph Koolaid”, then keep it coming and don’t break the rhythm. He also bailed out and is responsible for the New England Patriots. So not sure how to feel about that one in the long run ? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil The Thrill Posted April 10, 2020 Share Posted April 10, 2020 44 minutes ago, Don Otreply said: Sure his family made a big profit on the sale of the team, but it wasn’t some genius maneuver by Ralph, he rode the coat tails of the NFL wave, and waited long enough. What Ralph lost was his and his organizations reputation to the point the other owners merely tolerated him, and most quality NFL players stopped wanting to play for the Buffalo Bills, and many still don’t want to, it has taken two decades, new owners and front office, to include the firing of all remaining employees Ralph hired to right the ship, and that repair work is still ongoing. At times Ralph was a useful owner, but by and large he was a really bad the majority of the time, (like Cleveland Browns bad) the best business moves since the merger were hiring BP and selling the team to Terry and Kim. I’m a vocal fan of the team, but I’m not drinking the Ralph Koolaid... nuthin but luv fellow fan. ? Go Bills!!! There’s no doubt that Ralph did a lot of damage to Buffalo in the 00’s and gave the organization a really bad reputation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Otreply Posted April 10, 2020 Share Posted April 10, 2020 49 minutes ago, chris heff said: Ralph was not a good franchise owner, but without Ralph Wilson the AFL would have gone out of business. Not only did he invest in the Bills, but he bailed out both the Oakland Raiders and The New York Titans. Had he not done that in all likelihood the league would have collapsed. Which means no merger and no Buffalo Bills. If that perspective is “drinking the Ralph Koolaid”, then keep it coming and don’t break the rhythm. He bailed out the patriots as well iirc, look Ralph was a good person, and he did good things socially. And for that I’ll have a glass of koolaid. As a football team owner... if not for the NFL monopoly he would have been the victim of a Wall Street hostile business take over. Go Bills!!! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted April 10, 2020 Share Posted April 10, 2020 11 hours ago, Phil The Thrill said: I would say “cutting off his nose to spit his face” is the perfect analogy here. It was a mistake...period. And many Bills fans paid for that mistake - BIGLY! If someone calls your daughter a see you next Tuesday (which is allegedly what Polian said) and you do nothing about it, you’re a ?. If I was in that scenario, they would have had to pull me off of him. and he is a great GM but he knew how to pick his spots. Got multiple top 5 picks with Carolina. Got the number 1 pick in Indy (and built a 1-15 team). And got the #1 pick in Buffalo and inherited Jim Kelly. Any GM would kill for that. 1 hour ago, Phil The Thrill said: There’s no doubt that Ralph did a lot of damage to Buffalo in the 00’s and gave the organization a really bad reputation. And the Bills wouldn’t still be in Buffalo if it wasn’t for Ralph so let the man Rest In Peace. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted April 10, 2020 Share Posted April 10, 2020 16 hours ago, Saint Doug said: I’m in no position to criticize what Williams is saying or how he feels, are you? That said, I think we can all draw conclusions on the Whaley era. Yes. He said he hoped he would drink bleach and die in a hole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil The Thrill Posted April 10, 2020 Share Posted April 10, 2020 23 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said: If someone calls your daughter a see you next Tuesday (which is allegedly what Polian said) and you do nothing about it, you’re a ?. If I was in that scenario, they would have had to pull me off of him. and he is a great GM but he knew how to pick his spots. Got multiple top 5 picks with Carolina. Got the number 1 pick in Indy (and built a 1-15 team). And got the #1 pick in Buffalo and inherited Jim Kelly. Any GM would kill for that. And the Bills wouldn’t still be in Buffalo if it wasn’t for Ralph so let the man Rest In Peace. I hope you also enjoyed the drought that Ralph gave us?? 39 minutes ago, Don Otreply said: He bailed out the patriots as well iirc, look Ralph was a good person, and he did good things socially. And for that I’ll have a glass of koolaid. As a football team owner... if not for the NFL monopoly he would have been the victim of a Wall Street hostile business take over. Go Bills!!! Thank you for speaking the truth 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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