Bleeding Bills Blue Posted April 7, 2020 Posted April 7, 2020 59 minutes ago, thenorthremembers said: For me a draft bust is more on the GM than the player. I usually consider a bust a player who was drafted in the first three rounds that didnt come close to comparing with players of the same position picked after him. I get the T.J. Graham vs Russell Wilson debate but by position value alone even if Graham played great he would have never have had the impact as Wilson. Similarly players picked in a year where their position group was substantially weak really doesn't live up to the definition of bust for me. For instance C.J. Spiller may have been the best Running Back drafted in 2010, only Ryan Matthews comes to mind when I think of a player from his class that had a better career, the real issue is the Bills should have traded back to select him or not selected him at all. Same issue with Losman, the only other quarterback drafted after him in 2004 who had a decent career was Schaub. That said the biggest draft busts in for the Bills since 2001 would go in this order for me Table shows the player, then the player drafted after them at the same position. The Watkins pick for me was the worst thing the Bills have done in the first three rounds of the draft since 2001. There was no reason to move up to 4 to draft a WR when there was that much talent at the position. Sammy Watkins Evans Beckham Cooks Adams Landry Allen Robinson John Brown James Hardy Eddie Royal DeSean Jackson Mario Manningham Matt Slater Paul Hubbard Pierre Garcon Stevie Johnson Torell Troup LaMarr Houston Linval Joseph Earl Mitchell Geno Atkins Al Woods Arthur Jones Zay Jones Smith Schuster Kupp Godwin Golladay Westbrook Adolphus Washington Javon Hargrave Andrew Billings Quinton Jefferson Matt Ioannidis D.J. Reader Cyrus Kouandjio Justin Britt Morgan Moses Billy Turner Laurent Duvernay-Tardif Charles Leno T.J. Graham Mohammed Sanu TY Hilton Travis Benjamin Marvin Jones Rishard Matthews Aaron Maybin Brian Orakpo Connor Barwin Michael Johnson Clay Matthews John McCargo Gabe Watson Domata Peko Kyle Williams Kedric Gholston Donte Whitner Jason Allen Daniel Manning Roman Harper Dawan Landry Antonie Bethea EJ Manuel Geno Smith Matt Barkley Mike Glennon My only criticism here is you are only evaluating based on that drafts running backs regarding spiller. The fact is - we had 2 running backs in lynch and jackson - you only take spiller if you think he is a superstar. I can actually argue Mcgahee was a better pick - he was closer to a superstar. Spiller was not a superstar, or even particularly good. I'd consider someone a bust when they don't really provide much discernable value to the team that drafted them.
Freddie's Dead Posted April 7, 2020 Posted April 7, 2020 6 hours ago, GunnerBill said: TJ Graham over Russell Wilson. End thread. And Captain Kirk. Moving up to take TJumptomakeacatch Graham was emblematic of the idiocy of the Nix/Whaley era.
Freddie's Dead Posted April 7, 2020 Posted April 7, 2020 4 hours ago, SoTier said: Both Willis McGahee and Donte Whitner were both good players, both for the Bills and for other teams during their NFL careers, including Pro Bowl selections, so they hardly qualify for a list of "the worst players we ever drafted". CJ Spiller also had a decent NFL career, so he doesn't belong on your list, either. McGahee was a 1st round pick that didn't play for an entire year, on a team that needed playmakers, and a player so stupid that he didn't know it was 4th down in NE. Whitner was a bust, considering Ngata was on the board to be had, OR Marv could have traded down and gathered more picks because Leinart, Cutler, etc. were still on the board. Picking Whitner was by far the worst move there. CJ Spiller was also a bust because Bulaga was there to be had. Could have been our RT for a decade, instead of for the Packers. These players all belong on the list of worst draft picks ever for the Bills.
Bleeding Bills Blue Posted April 7, 2020 Posted April 7, 2020 Just now, Freddie's Dead said: McGahee was a 1st round pick that didn't play for an entire year, on a team that needed playmakers, and a player so stupid that he didn't know it was 4th down in NE. Whitner was a bust, considering Ngata was on the board to be had, OR Marv could have traded down and gathered more picks because Leinart, Cutler, etc. were still on the board. Picking Whitner was by far the worst move there. CJ Spiller was also a bust because Bulaga was there to be had. Could have been our RT for a decade, instead of for the Packers. These players all belong on the list of worst draft picks ever for the Bills. Mcgahee averaged 1200 yards and like 8 TDs a year over 3 years. 2
artmalibu Posted April 7, 2020 Posted April 7, 2020 I cant understand why Dante Whitner comes up in this conversation.. The team was desperate for a safety that year and drafted a guy that was a 10 year starter in the league. Was is drafted a bit early, maybe but they got a starter in year one. The other guy I understand why he was on the list but was not a terrible deal was EJ. I know he did not pan out but QBs in the first round are only about %50 anyway. The traded back and got a 2nd that turned in to Kiko. Yes there were some bad picks over the years but what gets me the most is all the early RBs that were taken when we already had decent RBs. Willis who couldnt play in year one, Lynch come to mind. 2
GunnerBill Posted April 7, 2020 Posted April 7, 2020 (edited) 7 minutes ago, artmalibu said: I cant understand why Dante Whitner comes up in this conversation.. The team was desperate for a safety that year and drafted a guy that was a 10 year starter in the league. Was is drafted a bit early, maybe but they got a starter in year one. The other guy I understand why he was on the list but was not a terrible deal was EJ. I know he did not pan out but QBs in the first round are only about %50 anyway. The traded back and got a 2nd that turned in to Kiko. Yes there were some bad picks over the years but what gets me the most is all the early RBs that were taken when we already had decent RBs. Willis who couldnt play in year one, Lynch come to mind. Yea - throw EJ in with Losman and Maybin for me. Question their talent evaluation on those players - 100% - but the identification of need to add players at premium spots I can give some credit there even if they were failed talent evaluations. The reason McKelvin and Spiller stick in my throat so much is both were taken in drafts where there were good prospects at premium positions - EDGE, OT, even QB (they could have had Flacco in 2010 - he was good not great but he won a Superbowl) - where we had serious deficiencies on the roster and we were taking a corner and a running back when we already had decent starters in those positions. Neither Spiller or McKelvin were as bad as EJ, Losman and Maybin but they annoy me more because it wasn't just the talent evaluation that was flawed...... it was much worse than that. It was the whole damn strategy. Edited April 7, 2020 by GunnerBill 1
Mango Posted April 7, 2020 Posted April 7, 2020 4 hours ago, BuffaloBills1998 said: I’m sorry but I have to disagree with you regarding McGahee, he sucked when he was here and I couldn’t stand him. I thought It was the dumbest move to draft him in the first place especially after that gruesome knee injury he had. He was not worth a first round pick, we should’ve given Bledsoe more O line protection. We were fine with Travis Henry who I feel got screwed over by the Bills. Huh? WG rushed for 1100,1200, and 990 yards while he was here. Then made 2 pro bowls after he left. Thats just a wild accusation. 16 minutes ago, artmalibu said: I cant understand why Dante Whitner comes up in this conversation.. The team was desperate for a safety that year and drafted a guy that was a 10 year starter in the league. Was is drafted a bit early, maybe but they got a starter in year one. The other guy I understand why he was on the list but was not a terrible deal was EJ. I know he did not pan out but QBs in the first round are only about %50 anyway. The traded back and got a 2nd that turned in to Kiko. Yes there were some bad picks over the years but what gets me the most is all the early RBs that were taken when we already had decent RBs. Willis who couldnt play in year one, Lynch come to mind. You had me until Lynch and McGahee. I can sorta get McGahee. He didn’t play for a year, but he was still good. Lynch was an All-Pro back. We never should have traded him. 1
thenorthremembers Posted April 7, 2020 Posted April 7, 2020 35 minutes ago, dneveu said: My only criticism here is you are only evaluating based on that drafts running backs regarding spiller. The fact is - we had 2 running backs in lynch and jackson - you only take spiller if you think he is a superstar. I can actually argue Mcgahee was a better pick - he was closer to a superstar. Spiller was not a superstar, or even particularly good. I'd consider someone a bust when they don't really provide much discernable value to the team that drafted them. Totally agree McGahee was a better pick. Honestly, if McGahee had a better attitude about being here and the thing wasnt such an s show while he was here, I believe there is an argument he was a hall of fame talent. For what it's worth I think he was just as good a back as Lynch. That said, Spiller and Lynch should have never been drafted by the Bills. McGahee should have been retained in 2007. However, I dont think that makes Spiller a bust. I think he was a more than serviceable back, I also think he was grossly underused when he was in Buffalo. All of the guys mentioned here were products of a team without a real plan. It's insane to think that in a six year span this team went through Willis McGahee, Marshawn Lynch, Fred Jackson, and C.J. Spiller. 1
Kirby Jackson Posted April 7, 2020 Posted April 7, 2020 (edited) I think there are some important differences that we should discuss. I haven’t read the thread so they may have already been mentioned. There’s a big difference between a guy that they shouldn’t have picked and a guy that couldn’t play. The Bills shouldn’t have picked Spiller or Whitner. Maybin and McCargo couldn’t play. For me, it’s much worse to take a guy that couldn’t play over a guy that you shouldn’t have taken. If I’m to declare a “worst pick of the last 20 years” it has to be Maybin. He checked both boxes. He shouldn’t have been picked (Orakpo was the top available option at the position) and he couldn’t play. He was drafted to rush the passer and had as many sacks in a Bills uniform as I did. Glad to see him making a difference in his post-football life but he’s the worst pick that we’ve had. Edited April 7, 2020 by Kirby Jackson 1 1
ElMarko Posted April 7, 2020 Posted April 7, 2020 6 hours ago, First Round Bust said: warning this may induce vomiting: Walt Patulski - first pick of entire draft - at least he got traded for a #2 which turned out to be Joe Delvin who played well for us for years more 70s misses Phil Dokes - the Nebraska twins (LBs Rudd and Nelson) Tom Cousineau - never signed - went to CFL and Browns after crapping big-time on Buffalo Rueben Gant - as in can't - TE 80s whiffs Booker Moore - Guillen barre disease Tony Hunter - TE from ND taken before Jim Kelly Perry Tuttle - beware WRs from Clemson 90s super bowl misfit Darryl Williams (and his flame ######ant jersey) 20th century busts Erik Flowers - John Butler reach Aaron Maybin JP Losman - not just a number 1 but we traded more pick Leo McKelvin (first cb taken in the entire draft) Torrell Troupe (2nd rounder taken right before Gronk) Cousineau was later used in the trade for draft pick resulting in obtaining Jim Kelly. So scratch that one off as bad!
Albany,n.y. Posted April 7, 2020 Posted April 7, 2020 2 hours ago, st pete gogolak said: My personal favorite underrated draft choice is from the 1972 draft and no it’s not Walt Patulski. With the first pick of the 3rd round Bills picked Walt’s Norte Dame running mate Fred Swenson. But you say, “you can’t call a third round pick a monumental bust. It’s a crapshoot at that point.” Two things. Back then only 26 teams were in existence so the first pick in the third round would be closer to a low second round pick today. Second, SWENSON DIDN’T MAKE IT OUT OF TRAINING CAMP. Cut before the season started. That’s a bust. I have a better one: 1989 5th round pick Michael Andrews, who was the 3rd player drafted by the Bills that year since they had no 1st & 2nd round picks. After the Bills drafted him they discovered a medical problem that was bad enough that he couldn't play in the NFL. Andrews NEVER MAKE IT INTO CAMP.
Sherlock Holmes Posted April 7, 2020 Posted April 7, 2020 Zay Jones over Cooper Kupp and Torrell Troup over Gronk are two of the worst. Aaron Maybin. Every QB we drafted since Kelly until Allen.
Albany,n.y. Posted April 7, 2020 Posted April 7, 2020 3 minutes ago, ElMarko said: Cousineau was later used in the trade for draft pick resulting in obtaining Jim Kelly. So scratch that one off as bad! Here's the other side on that one. If the Bills didn't have 2 picks within 2 slots of the 1st round, odds are since QB is so much more important than TE, the Bills would have drafted Kelly at #12 without pick #14 & never would have drafted bust TE Tony Hunter.
billsfan89 Posted April 7, 2020 Posted April 7, 2020 The worst picks are the ones that everyone thought were bad picks at the time and turned out to be bad. If I had to rank them. 1- Maybin over Orakpo - Everyone knew Maybin beefed up during the pre-draft process and over performed at the combine. Whereas Orakpo was a legit top 3 prospect who was falling because of injury concerns that while legit was exactly the type of talent you should take a chance on late in the top 10 or they could have drafted O-line at that spot when other good prospects were available. 2- McCargo over Mangold - That 2006 draft set the team back 3-4 years if not more. They could have had a 3 time All-Pro 7 time Pro-Bowl Center to anchor their line for a decade instead they reached on a DT who was thought of as more of a second round pick. Especially considering that Center was a huge need that they would eventually spend a first round pick on is maddening. 3- Troupe over Gronk - Once again Troupe was considered a reach and Gronk was right there in round 2 to be had at a time when they could have used a tight end for a decade by that point. 4- CJ Spiller - They had Lynch and Freddie, RB was one of the few positions going into the 2010 NFL draft where the Bills were set and they took CJ Spiller when tons of great O-line players were available or good defensive players like Earl Thomas or JPP were there to be had. At least Spiller had a good year in his career which prevents this from being higher on the list. 5- The other big blunder of the 2006 draft. Everyone knew that Whitner was a reach at pick 8 and that Ngata was the perfect Pat Williams replacement. DT was a need and they could have easily filled it with a quality player who could have anchored the run defense for nearly a decade. Instead they chose Whitner who was never a bust but was never anything more than a solid player who they let walk anyway. This one goes at 5 because at least Whitner was somewhat productive. 6- JP Losman - They reached bad for a QB costing them a future 1st to trade up for a QB that didn't have the attitude or demeanor to make a good but not great physical skillset work. The 2010 and 2006 draft blunders were so heinous it made me ill right after watching them. Spiller and Troupe over a quality prospect at a position of need and Gronk set the offense up to be hideous for years to come. The 2006 McCargo and Whitner instead of Mangold and Ngata completely inhibited the team from having a good O-line for nearly a decade and a solid D-line for a long time. Just so many blunders during the drought that everyone knew were blunders. 4 minutes ago, Sherlock Holmes said: Zay Jones over Cooper Kupp and Torrell Troup over Gronk are two of the worst. Aaron Maybin. Every QB we drafted since Kelly until Allen. Zay Jones was at least thought of to be a good prospect worth drafting at that position. It was a mistake but at the time not thought of that bad. 1
Buffalo716 Posted April 7, 2020 Posted April 7, 2020 7 hours ago, GunnerBill said: TJ Graham over Russell Wilson. End thread. The one that really annoyed me was Leodis McKelvin in 2008. Leodis wasn't the worst player in the world and it was before I really watched college football so I can't pretend to have been an expert but I just remember Jason Peters was already starting to play up over a contract and the Langston Walker experiment had been a disaster and I remember it being talked of as a decent tackle draft. I really wanted Branden Albert but there was Ryan Clady, Duane Brown and Chris Williams (who was a bust and did eventually end up here playing 4 games at guard then getting injured) as well. We still had decent corners on the roster I think as well. I don't hate drafting defensive backs early.... I am not @Bill from NYC I liked the Gilmore pick and the White pick and taking Darby early.... but that one McKelvin just never made any sense to me from a roster building perspective. Mckelvin was the clear cut #1 corner. His physicality, speed , and traits were all damn good and teams wanted to hit on a lockdown guy And he had all pro return ability He never turned out 100% like they wanted but he definitely became a very steady corner over time, with some good ball skills
Orlando Buffalo Posted April 7, 2020 Posted April 7, 2020 I am amazed I am defending Watkins since I didn't like the pick with Mack still there but to call the guy a bust is crazy by the numbers. He has put up per year of his career numbers almost identical to Adam Thielen, Sanu, Kenny Stills, Randall Cobb and Amendola. All of them have about 700 yds per year and 5 TDs. He is not a top 10 WR but is not a bust. 1
GunnerBill Posted April 7, 2020 Posted April 7, 2020 10 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said: Mckelvin was the clear cut #1 corner. His physicality, speed , and traits were all damn good and teams wanted to hit on a lockdown guy And he had all pro return ability He never turned out 100% like they wanted but he definitely became a very steady corner over time, with some good ball skills It wasn't McKelvin that I had the issue with. It was the strategy. It was flawed.
Buffalo716 Posted April 7, 2020 Posted April 7, 2020 1 minute ago, GunnerBill said: It wasn't McKelvin that I had the issue with. It was the strategy. It was flawed. Most times drafting a corner in the top 10 Is flawed. Unless it's literally a CANT MISS guy like Patrick Peterson and he even had a better rook year as returner than CB... Leodis was also from Troy.. tough transition It's literally the toughest position to play on defense and usually has a high learning curve. Far from a safe position Though I did love the Gilmore selection 1
Kirby Jackson Posted April 7, 2020 Posted April 7, 2020 1 minute ago, Buffalo716 said: Most times drafting a corner in the top 10 Is flawed. Unless it's literally a CANT MISS guy like Patrick Peterson and he even had a better rook year as returner than CB... Leodis was also from Troy.. tough transition It's literally the toughest position to play on defense and usually has a high learning curve. Far from a safe position Though I did love the Gilmore selection Some irony on that pick too. The Bills tried DESPERATELY to move up to take Mark Barron. They thought that they had a deal and couldn’t get it done. They ended up staying put and following plan B, drafting Gilmore.
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