Scott Norwoods other big miss

[DCBongo]

Harmon blamed the throw. He went to jerk it in San Diego and the start of 34 began![

[The Fiend]

3 hours ago, ALLEN-2-DIGGS-TD!! said:

Ok you say Denver was the best AFC team if I remember correctly we beat Denver that year

 

Ther Bills lost to Denver 28-14 in Week 2:

 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/198909180buf.htm

[Phil The Thrill]

5 hours ago, shane nelson said:

There is a recording of Frank taking the snap and turns the ball to the right.  I may have a recording of a picture of it.  I only noticed it a few years ago.  Will do searching to see if I can find it and post

 

There’s no evidence of this happening 

4 hours ago, Happy Gilmore said:

 

I remember seeing a documentary on NFLN about past Super Bowls, where XXV was discussed.  What came up was that Scott Norwood was missing practice field goals to the left before the game.  He was compensating by favoring to the right during the game.  That last kick he either over compensated or hit the ball like he normally did during the season.  Bad luck that game.

It had nothing to do with Reich.  Norwood fell off very quickly after an All Pro 1988 season.  He was Significantly worse in 1989, unreliable in 1990, and below average in 1991.  
 

It wasn’t bad luck - Norwood was just not a good kicker and not good kicking on grass.

[ChasBB]

7 hours ago, JAMIEBUF12 said:

So as a kid I was always pissed that Ronnie Harmon didn’t catch what I thought was a easy catch the 2nd to last play before Jim Kelly threw the game ending interception.

Last night after all these years I rewatched the 1989 divisional playoff game in its entirety on Youtube and I had totally forgotten that on the previous td Scott Norwood slipped on his butt and missed the extra point to put the Bills behind by 4 points instead of 3 with like 3 minutes to go.So Norwood basically screwed up badly two years in a row??

Good point!  The other annoying thing about that game was Ronnie Harmon was wide open in the end zone on the next play (I think), but Kelly had lost confidence in him and didn't throw it his way - always wonder what would have happened if Kelly gave him another chance there.

[Freddie's Dead]

Who is Scott Norwoods?

[CSBill]

I watched that game with a bunch of Browns fans. So close. I remember leaving with the same feeling I had after the Texans game this year, sad we lost, but with big expectations for the future.

[Dan Darragh]

You can blame Norwood or Harmon for that loss, but consider these other factors:

• footing was bad all day, Cleveland kicker missed a makeable FG in the first half because he slipped
• on the PAT, looks to me like the snap was high
• Harmon made some key catches down the stretch before the drop
• Bills wouldn't have been in that position if the DBs hadn't been practicing Social Distancing from Webster Slaughter all afternoon.  He caught 2 TDs with nobody near him
• Ditto if the special teams hadn't surrendered Cleveland's first-ever postseason kickoff return TD

Lots of things contributed to that loss.  Norwood was still a Buffalo hero and nothing can take away the Harmon hail mary catch against the Patriots.

[Happy]

11 hours ago, Phil The Thrill said:

It had nothing to do with Reich.  Norwood fell off very quickly after an All Pro 1988 season.  He was Significantly worse in 1989, unreliable in 1990, and below average in 1991.  
 

It wasn’t bad luck - Norwood was just not a good kicker and not good kicking on grass.

 

I never said it had to do with Frank Reich.  All I said was that Norwood favored kicking toward the right because he was missing to the left pre-game warmups, per the NFLN film I watched.

Norwood was good enough during the regular season and playoffs; he wan't unreliable or terrible, otherwise he wouldn't have been part of the Super Bowl Bills team.

Edited April 5, 2020 by Happy Gilmore

[Phil The Thrill]

Ok so now we are rewriting history a bit.  In my opinion, he was NOT good enough.  His total FG accuracy was at 69%
 

His accuracy from 40-49 was 60% in 1990.  His worst season ever.  He didn’t have the leg to kick over 50 yards.  
 

He was barely over 50% at kicks from 30-39 yards.

 

Bottom line - he was going downhill and had Polian realized this in 1989 instead of 1992, the Bills fortunes could have been different.   

 

The only reason that he was “good enough”’is because the K-Gun was on fire scoring so many TD’s that games never came down to a last minute field goal.  So he didn’t really matter.  Name a time in 1990 or 1991  when the game came down to a last minute FG?  I can only think of one time in Oakland in 1991 and Norwood again struggled badly with kicking on grass.  
 

Also, if he was “good enough” why did Norwood never get another chance to kick in the NFL after the Bills signed Steve Christie?  Kickers are recycled like crazy in the NFL and kick into their 40’s in some cases.  But Norwood couldn’t get a preseason roster spot.  

 

I am prepared to die on this hill - Norwood went downhill FAST and he was one of the weakspot on the team along with Jeff Wright and whoever was playing CB2.   
 

 

[Steve O]

19 hours ago, shane nelson said:

 

 

SB XXV Frank Reich turn the laces to the right, basically a 90 degree angle.  

 

18 hours ago, Seasons1992 said:

 

This is the reason it went right. It started out down the middle. 

 

In "The four falls of Buffalo," Kenneth Davis says it was the Apache helicopters flying over the stadium that blew the kick to the right. Marv Levy goes on to say the it was the first time he'd heard that one.

[Seasons1992]

2 hours ago, Steve O said:

 

In "The four falls of Buffalo," Kenneth Davis says it was the Apache helicopters flying over the stadium that blew the kick to the right. Marv Levy goes on to say the it was the first time he'd heard that one.

 

Yep..........I remember him saying that.

 

While we're at it.....how GOOD was KD as a backup? Man he was also fun to watch.

 

[Boatdrinks]

On 4/4/2020 at 8:31 PM, Success said:

The one play I remember is on that 10 minute drive to start the 3rd quarter.  It was 3rd and very long, and 3 Bills missed 3 easy tackles that would have stopped that drive.

 

It may just be overblown legend - but that Bills team should have handled that Giants team fairly easily, and they didn't. Maybe the moment was just too big, or maybe Belichick's D really does deserve to be in the HOF.  But it still feels to this day like they didn't take an insanely important game as seriously as they should have.

 

You’re correct on the 3rd and long play- and the Bills defense in general. They failed that day, but the offense? What makes you think they should have handled the Giants fairly easily ? They played a few weeks prior in the meadowlands/ Giants stadium , and both Kelly and Simms left the game due to injury. The Bills won by a small margin. That same Giants team defeated the high flying 49ers on the road in the NFC title game. The 49ers likely would have been a slight favorite over the Bills in SB XXV had they prevailed. Belichick’s D was excellent, but did about the same vs Bills in both contests. The Bills defense , however was much worse at the fundamentals in SB XXV. That matchup vs the Giants ground attack and poor tackling is what cost them the win, not some mythically great gameplan by BB. 

[Boatdrinks]

On 4/4/2020 at 4:16 PM, JAMIEBUF12 said:

So as a kid I was always pissed that Ronnie Harmon didn’t catch what I thought was a easy catch the 2nd to last play before Jim Kelly threw the game ending interception.

Last night after all these years I rewatched the 1989 divisional playoff game in its entirety on Youtube and I had totally forgotten that on the previous td Scott Norwood slipped on his butt and missed the extra point to put the Bills behind by 4 points instead of 3 with like 3 minutes to go.So Norwood basically screwed up badly two years in a row??

Well, your take on Norwood isn’t exactly true. Yes, he slipped on an XP attempt in Cleveland but it was due to the hilariously bad “grass field “ in CLE municipal. I attended that game with about 8 friends from work; we got tix at Kaufman’s ( lol, they had a Ticketmaster desk in those days). It was a baseball stadium as well, and we got got seats in the field boxes behind the Bills bench about 5 rows up. We couldn’t believe how awful the field was when we got to our seats during warmups. It was ( I’m being serious) mostly dirt with what looked to be hay/ straw sprinkled on top and actually spray -painted green. Unreal! Footing was a problem all game to say the least, and Norwoods plant leg went out from under him. It was critical , because the Bills needed a TD now to win rather than a FG to tie. This led to the fateful Harmon play , which was such a perfectly placed pass by Kelly that we jumped to our feet certain the Bills had won. To our dismay we realized he had dropped the pass. Incredible and made for a depressing ride back to Buffalo. 

[BillsPride12]

5 hours ago, Boatdrinks said:

Well, your take on Norwood isn’t exactly true. Yes, he slipped on an XP attempt in Cleveland but it was due to the hilariously bad “grass field “ in CLE municipal. I attended that game with about 8 friends from work; we got tix at Kaufman’s ( lol, they had a Ticketmaster desk in those days). It was a baseball stadium as well, and we got got seats in the field boxes behind the Bills bench about 5 rows up. We couldn’t believe how awful the field was when we got to our seats during warmups. It was ( I’m being serious) mostly dirt with what looked to be hay/ straw sprinkled on top and actually spray -painted green. Unreal! Footing was a problem all game to say the least, and Norwoods plant leg went out from under him. It was critical , because the Bills needed a TD now to win rather than a FG to tie. This led to the fateful Harmon play , which was such a perfectly placed pass by Kelly that we jumped to our feet certain the Bills had won. To our dismay we realized he had dropped the pass. Incredible and made for a depressing ride back to Buffalo. 

That is something I had completely forgotten about lol, but now that you mention I can remember going there to get concert tickets and tickets to WWF when they came to town.  It feels like that was a lifetime ago

[Big Turk]

On 4/4/2020 at 4:36 PM, Phil The Thrill said:

Good find... I didn’t starting the Bills seriously until the 1990 season.  
 

Ive always said this - Bill Polian replaced Scott Norwood 2 years too late.  He dropped off quite a bit after the 1988 and was completely unreliable on grass.  We’re not talking 40 or 50 yard PAT’s.  He was missed those gimme 19 yard PAT’s on grass turf like he did in Cleveland.

 

Norwood’s apologists will say he never should have been in that position because he wasn’t good on grass or from 40+.  I’m sorry but even in 1991, if your kicker can’t make that kick, you need a replacement.  Ironically it was Matt Bahr’s long FG in San Francisco that won the game for the Giants the week before “the kick.”

 

Norwood’s performance was far from impressive in 1990 or 1991.  He didn’t really have any clutch as kick, as Christie would in 1992.   You might be able to argue that a better kicker might win them atleast 1 Super Bowl.  
 

@JAMIEBUF12 Great nostalgia thread.

 

If you knew anything about Cleveland's field conditions back in those days you would know at that point of the year there wasn't anything that was a gimme. They were playing on painted iced mud.

[Phil The Thrill]

49 minutes ago, matter2003 said:

 

If you knew anything about Cleveland's field conditions back in those days you would know at that point of the year there wasn't anything that was a gimme. They were playing on painted iced mud.

Ok but how does that disprove my point, that Norwood was not good enough given the facts

that:

 

A. he was not reliable at FG’s over 40 yds

B. he was not a good at kicking on grass

C. he rarely was put in a position to make game winning FG’s because the offense scored so many points.

[Gordio]

Good topic.  Conspiracy theory, it was reported Ronnie Harmon had a serious gambling problem, even at his days in Iowa.  One conspiracy he owed a lot of money to some very bad people in 1989 and got the alligator arms on that last throw to have Cleveland cover the game.  The line was Bills +2.5  believe.  Just one theory but an interesting one none the less.  

[Big Turk]

19 minutes ago, Phil The Thrill said:

Ok but how does that disprove my point, that Norwood was not good enough given the facts

that:

 

A. he was not reliable at FG’s over 40 yds

B. he was not a good at kicking on grass

C. he rarely was put in a position to make game winning FG’s because the offense scored so many points.

 

Long FGs in those days were not nearly as common.  50 yards was considered closer to what 60 yards is considered today...a very long FG with a high likelihood of a miss. Norwood was not the only kicker in the league who did not have a big leg back then.

 

I am not saying Norwood did not have his struggles especially later in his career, just saying you are basing some of your assumptions on how things work today instead of how they worked 30+ years ago in regards to FG kicking.

8 hours ago, Boatdrinks said:

You’re correct on the 3rd and long play- and the Bills defense in general. They failed that day, but the offense? What makes you think they should have handled the Giants fairly easily ? They played a few weeks prior in the meadowlands/ Giants stadium , and both Kelly and Simms left the game due to injury. The Bills won by a small margin. That same Giants team defeated the high flying 49ers on the road in the NFC title game. The 49ers likely would have been a slight favorite over the Bills in SB XXV had they prevailed. Belichick’s D was excellent, but did about the same vs Bills in both contests. The Bills defense , however was much worse at the fundamentals in SB XXV. That matchup vs the Giants ground attack and poor tackling is what cost them the win, not some mythically great gameplan by BB. 

 

They were playing a backup QB for starters.

[Not at the table Karlos]

On 4/4/2020 at 5:23 PM, Binghamton Beast said:

I'll be honest....I wanted the Bills to attempt one more sideline pass before Norwood trotted out there. They had 8 seconds. Nothing there, throw it away. 8 seconds was plenty of time to bring that kick 5-10 yards closer. Marv screwed the pooch on that.

I wanted Jim Kelly to snap the ball earlier in the drive when the giants player was struggling to get onside. Instead we called a timeout. 

8 hours ago, Boatdrinks said:

Well, your take on Norwood isn’t exactly true. Yes, he slipped on an XP attempt in Cleveland but it was due to the hilariously bad “grass field “ in CLE municipal. I attended that game with about 8 friends from work; we got tix at Kaufman’s ( lol, they had a Ticketmaster desk in those days). It was a baseball stadium as well, and we got got seats in the field boxes behind the Bills bench about 5 rows up. We couldn’t believe how awful the field was when we got to our seats during warmups. It was ( I’m being serious) mostly dirt with what looked to be hay/ straw sprinkled on top and actually spray -painted green. Unreal! Footing was a problem all game to say the least, and Norwoods plant leg went out from under him. It was critical , because the Bills needed a TD now to win rather than a FG to tie. This led to the fateful Harmon play , which was such a perfectly placed pass by Kelly that we jumped to our feet certain the Bills had won. To our dismay we realized he had dropped the pass. Incredible and made for a depressing ride back to Buffalo. 

I bought my tickets to the bills chiefs game when JP came in off bench and hit two long td bombs to Lee Evans from Macy’s(used to be Kaufman’s) Ticketmaster deal at blvd mall.
 

Was really confused when i asked a mall security guard where Ticketmaster was and he said upstairs in Macy’s. 

[RJ (not THAT RJ)]

On 4/4/2020 at 5:44 PM, Seasons1992 said:

 

This is the reason it went right. It started out down the middle. 

 

Thanks OP for some fresh hand sani in the eyes..........................

 

It did not start right down the middle... it started right and stayed there for an agonizingly long time as we all waited for it to curl in....

On 4/4/2020 at 8:38 PM, Florida Bills Fanatic said:

That was small beans compared to Charlie Romes dropping an interception on the Bengals drive that resulted in the game winning score. UGH...

Romes also dropped an INT (mayve a pick-6) on the play just before Fouts hit Ron Smith to beat the Bills in the 1980 playoffs.... 

 

Being a Bills fan is hard.