I don’t get the hate that Josh Allen gets around here.

[billsbackto81]

On 4/4/2020 at 7:02 AM, BuffaloBills1998 said:

I get it he’s not perfect, but neither was Kemp, or Ferguson or even Kelly for that matter. First it’s finally we have a franchise QB now all of a sudden it’s let’s go get Watson and let Allen go so we don’t have to pay him 30 million. Like some of you guys need to make up your minds. Either your with Allen or your not. Again while Bills mafia is the best fan base in the NFL, we are also the most spoiled. Appreciate what we have and root for the guy to succeed. Things could be worse, we could still have Tyrod( I can’t throw the football) Taylor or Nathan( I cant stop throwing to the other team) Peterman. Or how about EJ Manuel or Kyle Orton or even better Jeff Tuel or Thad Lewis. I can’t imagine if Kelly’s first year in Buffalo happened in today’s game, there would probably be a million threads about running him out of town and demanding that we draft someone else. I understand being critical and even being concerned, but some of you guys need to stop being negative and back off a bit and watch and see how it all unfolds. Be patient as the kids still young and is only going into his third year in the NFL. I don’t see Cleveland or New Jersey fans coming down on their QBS as much as I see here. And in my opinion Allen is way better than Darnold and Mayfield. 

It's not all hate.

 

2020 MVP,  ...  Josh Allen?

 

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/kyler-murray-the-early-popular-2020-mvp-bet-with-tom-brady-and-a-surprise-quarterback-behind-him/

 

T2. Josh Allen, Buffalo Bills, 50/1 odds, (8 percent of tickets)

This has to be the most surprising name in the top three. Allen threw for 3,089 yards, 20 touchdowns, and nine interceptions as he led the Bills to a 10-6 record and their second playoff berth in the last three years. They did choke in the AFC wild-card game against the Texans, but that's not a fair representation of how Buffalo's season actually went. The Bills had the No. 3 defense in the league last year when it came to yards allowed per game, and they rode that unit all the way to the playoffs. Allen's nine rushing touchdowns didn't hurt Buffalo either. You can say he was more of a game manager in 2019, but with the cannon-like arm Allen has and the mobility he possesses, many figure he will take a big step forward in year three.

Another reason to be high on Allen is that he finally has a true No. 1 wideout for the first time in his career. The Bills made a big trade for former Minnesota Vikings star wideout Stefon Diggs, who has recorded two straight 1,000-yard receiving seasons. Don't sleep on the Bills in 2020. With Tom Brady now in the NFC South, they might be the favorites to win the division. 

Interestingly enough, Allen has also racked up the highest percent of dollars wagered in Vegas so far (22 percent), following by Dak Prescott (25/1 odds, 18 percent) and Murray (20/1 odds, 14 percent). 

[Mango]

11 hours ago, Tim Tindale said:

Reich v Kelly QB controversy:

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1993-01-21-sp-1899-story.html%3f_amp=true

My favorite part of the article:

 

Yet, there was a public clamor for Reich. Two newspapers from nearby Rochester took a telephone poll that revealed a preference for Reich by a vote of 1,267 to 237.

 

There is definitely a “grass is greener” mentality that football fans have around their QB.  That will never change. 

It’s a totally different scenario. Bills were coming off of two super bowl losses. One of which Kelly got cocking and stopped handing off the ball, and Reich was at the helm for the greatest comeback in NFL history. 
 

I wouldn’t treat it as evidence of a pattern or fault a fan base for voting to keep playing the hot hand. 

[oldmanfan]

3 minutes ago, Mango said:

It’s a totally different scenario. Bills were coming off of two super bowl losses. One of which Kelly got cocking and stopped handing off the ball, and Reich was at the helm for the greatest comeback in NFL history. 
 

I wouldn’t treat it as evidence of a pattern or fault a fan base for voting to keep playing the hot hand. 

True.  My point above in discussing that some actually wanted Reich was to point out the irrational feelings Bills fans have had over their QBs since day 1.  From Johnny Greene to Allen's fans have beeyatched about the QB for 60 years.  I wonder how many other franchises do the same.

[longtimebillsfan]

7 hours ago, Rico said:

My take as well. Very good blocker for a WR, but that's about it. Then again, I was never too impressed with Lil Antoine on the Bills either until he went to the Vikings.

Was it that Woods didn't want to be in Buffalo or did we not use him correctly?  I really don't know the answer to that.

[Rico]

5 hours ago, longtimebillsfan said:

Was it that Woods didn't want to be in Buffalo or did we not use him correctly?  I really don't know the answer to that.

To be fair, I have to put an asterisk next to every one of those players who were in Buffalo during the drought, especially the 2nd half of it. Ralph and the rest of his stooges like Brandon, Littman, Whaley, et all were just such stone cold losers that anyone who got sucked into that environment couldn't help but be set up for failure.

[SoTier]

17 hours ago, thebandit27 said:

By the way, did you actually take a look at the numbers of the 3 guys you mentioned in year 2 as I suggested?

 

Numbers don't tell the full story.  The QBs I mentioned, except for Lamar Jackson, all were/are considered top NFL QBs over their careers.  They all had significant accomplishments either personally or team-wise as rookies/sophomores.   While Josh Allen made significant improvement as a sophomore, neither his personal performance nor the team's performance qualify him to join the group I listed.  More than anything else, I think he needs to improve his decision making.   Great QBs consistently make the right decision, especially when the game is on the line.

 

17 hours ago, TwistofFate said:

Allen has not proven himself to be a franchise guy at all. 

 

This is his make it or break it season. 

 

There is zero excuses.  Same system for multiple years, he's a veteran, and he has weapons everywhere, more than any Qb has had in Buffalo in 20 years. 

 

Call me skeptical, but I think his accuracy will be his down fall.  I don't think he has the accuracy to be a franchise guy at this level.  He needs to put up this year or buffalo really needs to re-evaluate the Qb position next off-season. 

 

I think that Allen has proven himself to be a competent NFL QB, but he needs to step up significantly in order to be considered a "franchise QB".  I think that Allen's ability to understand and process what he sees quickly and accurately is the real key to his success.

 

16 hours ago, dneveu said:

 

 

Harvin is probably worse than McKenzie if you count ability to play more than 3 games per season as a skill.  

 

I'd give the nod to Beasley over Hogan.  Clay and Knox both dropped passes.  So lets give it a push.  Rookie Karlos was an upgrade over Gore for sure - Motors fumbling was a bit of a concern too.  Woods is younger and probably better than brown.  I'd give the nod to diggs over watkins simply because in the 2 years under rex with this group together, watkins missed time in both seasons.  

 

Diggs>Watkins

Brown<Woods

Beasley>Hogan,Goodwin

McKenzie>Harvin

 

Prime Shady>Motor

Karlos>Gore/Yeldon

 

It feels so much better than what buffalo trotted out in 2017/2018 - but i suppose its on par with what whaley put together.  Only issue with whaley was the cap.  We lost woods, hogan, gilmore, goodwin... And had built a team around Tyrod, Glenn, Dareus, Clay, and 2 1st Watkins.  That core was and is not enough to do anything in the league.  

 

I generally agree with this but it's simply untrue that the Bills "lost" Woods, Hogan, Gilmore, and Goodwin.  "Lost" implies that the Bills were constrained by something -- like the salary cap -- that prevented them from re-signing these players.  The Bills chose to not re-sign these players after their rookie contracts, primarily because not re-signing top DBs, WRs, and RBs and replacing them with cheaper rookie contract players was a Bills policy under Ralph Wilson and Russ Brandon.  It's why the Bills frequently drafted these same positions high in the draft so frequently, and it was a big reason why the Bills simply spun their wheels for almost two decades.

 

13 hours ago, Mango said:

It’s a totally different scenario. Bills were coming off of two super bowl losses. One of which Kelly got cocking and stopped handing off the ball, and Reich was at the helm for the greatest comeback in NFL history. 
 

I wouldn’t treat it as evidence of a pattern or fault a fan base for voting to keep playing the hot hand. 

 

Pushing for the backup QB to replace the starter is a universal response of any fan base to crappy QB play on the part of the starter.   If Bills fans seem more prone to it than other fan bases, it's because the Bills have had pretty crappy QB play for most of their history -- and especially since Jim Kelly retired.

 

 

 

[Straight Hucklebuck]

I’ve read the last page of comments.

 

The middle ground is the Bills offense needs to score more points. 
 

You have statements like:

- Bills fans are spoiled

- Bills fans would complain if Allen threw for 299 yards and not 300.

- He was a project QB from the beginning

- What about Eli and Rivers and Brees

 

Those kind of statements are exaggerated/embellished red herrings to the real crux of the problem: the Bills offense, like many Bills teams of years gone by, does not score enough points to really win by NFL standards, and we’ve seen nearly 30 games of Allen.

 

So the realistic point is this: Beane and McDermott chose the skills over production, and they learned from their lack of investment into the skill positions in 2018, so they have continued responsibility to get as much talent on both sides of the ball as possible, and I’ve been satisfied in their roster building in 2019/2020.

 

As for Allen, some Bills fans need to stop comparing Allen against his raw rookie self, and start judging by the current NFL standard. It’s not 2001 (Brees) or 2004 (Rivers, Manning). It’s 2020 and the Bills need more points than 19 a game to break the Playoff win drought. So who cares about those other QBs. 

 

Allen has the height, arm, intelligence and work ethic. He needs to cut down the fumbling which plagued him in the second half of 2019 and make more plays, period. Less three and outs, less dead 3rd Quarters. Too often the Bills offense goes dead in the water for chunks of the game.

 

We need more points. 

Edited April 11, 2020 by Straight Hucklebuck

[C.Biscuit97]

8 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

I’ve read the last page of comments.

 

The middle ground is the Bills offense needs to score more points. 
 

You have statements like:

- Bills fans are spoiled

- Bills fans would complain if Allen threw for 299 yards and not 300.

- He was a project QB from the beginning

- What about Eli and Rivers and Brees

 

Those kind of statements are exaggerated/embellished red herrings to the real crux of the problem: the Bills offense, like many Bills teams of years gone by, does not score enough points to really win by NFL standards, and we’ve seen nearly 30 games of Allen.

 

So the realistic point is this: Beane and McDermott chose the skills over production, and they learned from their lack of investment into the skill positions in 2018, so they have continued responsibility to get as much talent on both sides of the ball as possible, and I’ve been satisfied in their roster building in 2019/2020.

 

As for Allen, some Bills fans need to stop comparing Allen against his raw rookie self, and start judging by the current NFL standard. It’s not 2001 (Brees) or 2004 (Rivers, Manning). It’s 2020 and the Bills need more points than 19 a game to break the Playoff win drought. So who cares about those other QBs. 

 

Allen has the height, arm, intelligence and work ethic. He needs to cut down the fumbling which plagued him in the second half of 2019 and make more plays, period. Less three and outs, less dead 3rd Quarters. Too often the Bills offense goes dead in the water for chunks of the game.

 

We need more points. 

Great post.

[SoTier]

1 hour ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

I’ve read the last page of comments.

 

The middle ground is the Bills offense needs to score more points. 
 

You have statements like:

- Bills fans are spoiled

- Bills fans would complain if Allen threw for 299 yards and not 300.

- He was a project QB from the beginning

- What about Eli and Rivers and Brees

 

Those kind of statements are exaggerated/embellished red herrings to the real crux of the problem: the Bills offense, like many Bills teams of years gone by, does not score enough points to really win by NFL standards, and we’ve seen nearly 30 games of Allen.

 

So the realistic point is this: Beane and McDermott chose the skills over production, and they learned from their lack of investment into the skill positions in 2018, so they have continued responsibility to get as much talent on both sides of the ball as possible, and I’ve been satisfied in their roster building in 2019/2020.

 

As for Allen, some Bills fans need to stop comparing Allen against his raw rookie self, and start judging by the current NFL standard. It’s not 2001 (Brees) or 2004 (Rivers, Manning). It’s 2020 and the Bills need more points than 19 a game to break the Playoff win drought. So who cares about those other QBs. 

 

Allen has the height, arm, intelligence and work ethic. He needs to cut down the fumbling which plagued him in the second half of 2019 and make more plays, period. Less three and outs, less dead 3rd Quarters. Too often the Bills offense goes dead in the water for chunks of the game.

 

We need more points. 

 

I'll echo CBiscuit ... great post. 

 

It's not "hate" to to compare Allen to the QBs who should be his peers -- the QBs acknowledged to currently be "franchise QBs" -- and find him not on their level yet.  He needs to play significantly better this season if he's going to lay claim to being a "franchise QB" -- and his cheerleaders need to stop making excuses for him if he doesn't.  No Bills fan is wishing failure on Josh Allen. It's just that for some of us, wearing Bills-colored glasses and drinking Kool-Aid isn't part of our fandom, especially  given the teams that the Bills have fielded for most of the past quarter century.

[Billl]

20 hours ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

Watkins is in a perfect spot. He's not a #1 because he doesn't have the talent edge at the NFL level, he's not consistent enough to be a #2, so he is a mismatch #3/#4 in Kansas City (Hardman overtakes him this year) that occasionally comes up big, but is never relied on for real production.

Watkins is in a perfect spot, but it’s not for the reasons you say.  He absolutely has a talent edge.  He’s just incapable of staying healthy for a full season.  Andy Reid gave him a light workload in order to keep him healthy for the playoffs when he was really needed.  Healthy Sammy dominated in the postseason because he was able to go 100%.  Kansas City had the luxury of protecting him in the regular season because they have so many other weapons, but he was absolutely a difference maker in the playoffs where the Chiefs gained 16 yards per target (not per catch).  When he’s able to go 100%, he’s absolutely a #1 WR, but that’s a pretty big qualifier that may never materialize over the course of a full season.

[RochesterLifer]

I think SI hits it right on the head. I'm a huge fan of Josh Allen, liking everything I see, both physically and his intangibles. However, the fact is, until he takes control of the game, he hasn't yet taken control of a game. I'm hoping this is his breakthrough year. But it will be difficult for me to forget about that lateral attempt in the playoffs.

 

https://www.si.com/nfl/2020/04/10/ranking-ever-team-quarterback-situation

Depth chart: Josh Allen, Matt Barkley, Davis Webb

"Josh Allen grew immensely last year and has the tools to make another leap in Year 3; the question is whether or not it will happen. I think some of the statistics behind Allen’s breakout season are concerning, though an upgraded weapon set and another year of experience for his offensive line may prove me wrong."

[rayray808]

I’m just gonna say it...

 

Haters: Josh Allen keeps progressing and to assume he will plateau or regress has literally no statistical data behind it. You are just transferring past Bills trauma to him, and convincing yourself that we will never have a successful QB.

 

Lovers: Josh Allen has SO MUCH more he needs to do to even enter the MVP conversation and also just be able to score more than 19 a game. Stop picking and choosing stats that make him God while ignoring the ones that make him a Bust. 
 

Play nicely dammit! (In a lockdown COVID19 Dad voice)

[mjd1001]

Here is where I stand with Allen, and what I have said on these forums many times.

 

I like Josh Allen. I think there is a chance he can be a top 5 or 10 qb in the league.  I think he got better from his first season to the second season. I think there is a chance he can be the franchise QB to lead the team to the playoffs multiple times.

While saying that, I think last season he was still a LONG way form a top 5-10 qb in the league. I think there is a chance he won't get much better and the Bills will be looking for a new QB in a few years.  He needs to be better, a pretty good amount better, going forward than he was in the past.

 

When i have said those things in the past on this forum, I have been accused of hating on Allen...that is what I don't get.

[Straight Hucklebuck]

McDermott and Beane have responsibility in this. They have partly moved away from the early mentality of guys like Joe Webb, Mike Tolbert, Chris Ivory, Kaelin Clay, Kelvin Benjamin, Jordan Matthews, Jeremy Kerley.

 

But depending on Frank Gore at the expense of TJ Yeldon was a mistake, giving him 8 carries in the Wild Card game, keeping Yeldon benched, hampered the Bills play making ability. 

 

I’m glad we lost out on Greg Olsen. He would be the coaches pick to start, leaving Dawson Knox’s snaps to dwindle.

Those kind of decisions about personnel and playing time hurt Allen’s ability to lead the offense, make plays and score points. 
 

Less and less in sports is there room for the lunch pail worker who gets by on instincts. You need athletes. 

 

 

 

Edited April 11, 2020 by Straight Hucklebuck

[DuckyBoys]

Think as long as we dont speak in terms of absolutes than you can be impartial on Josh Allen.  Nobody can say for sure either way. I applaud the Bills for turning a corner and putting the tools in place for a qb to succeed and hopefully it is Josh.

[Straight Hucklebuck]

4 hours ago, Billl said:

Watkins is in a perfect spot, but it’s not for the reasons you say.  He absolutely has a talent edge.  He’s just incapable of staying healthy for a full season.  Andy Reid gave him a light workload in order to keep him healthy for the playoffs when he was really needed.  Healthy Sammy dominated in the postseason because he was able to go 100%.  Kansas City had the luxury of protecting him in the regular season because they have so many other weapons, but he was absolutely a difference maker in the playoffs where the Chiefs gained 16 yards per target (not per catch).  When he’s able to go 100%, he’s absolutely a #1 WR, but that’s a pretty big qualifier that may never materialize over the course of a full season.

But Watkins has played 81% of games since being traded and hasn’t topped 675 yards in any season, and two times hasn’t topped 600 yards despite being in pass friendly offenses.Thats why the Rams gave up on him after a year and KC reworked his deal.

 

We keep waiting for this Sammy explosion and it’s never going to come. He’s a depth player.

[Dr. Who]

18 minutes ago, DuckyBoys said:

Think as long as we dont speak in terms of absolutes than you can be impartial on Josh Allen.  Nobody can say for sure either way. I applaud the Bills for turning a corner and putting the tools in place for a qb to succeed and hopefully it is Josh.

Yep, though impartial is probably asking for a lot on a fan board. How about relatively rational? I am a hopeful optimist with regards to Allen. His rookie year was badly mismanaged. Second year, talent was at least NFL average at o-line and skill positions. TE is still below average, though Knox could make a leap and change that. He has the potential to be very good. O-line needs some maulers. I think you need to add another stud rb to the mix. Still have some worries about Daboll as a playcaller. All this contributes to how Josh Allen will develop as a qb. I'm fine with skeptics so long as they can admit Allen so far has progressed and that his eventual plateau is still unknown. What I object to is the notion that those of us who perceive "haters" on this board are delusional. There are a few and whether they are obvious or more subtle, they already want to move on from Allen because they "know" he is a bad qb.

[GunnerBill]

22 minutes ago, Dr. Who said:

Yep, though impartial is probably asking for a lot on a fan board. How about relatively rational? I am a hopeful optimist with regards to Allen. His rookie year was badly mismanaged. Second year, talent was at least NFL average at o-line and skill positions. TE is still below average, though Knox could make a leap and change that. He has the potential to be very good. O-line needs some maulers. I think you need to add another stud rb to the mix. Still have some worries about Daboll as a playcaller. All this contributes to how Josh Allen will develop as a qb. I'm fine with skeptics so long as they can admit Allen so far has progressed and that his eventual plateau is still unknown. What I object to is the notion that those of us who perceive "haters" on this board are delusional. There are a few and whether they are obvious or more subtle, they already want to move on from Allen because they "know" he is a bad qb.

 

Meh. I maybe can think of two haters. No more than that. 

[first_and_ten]

In Jim Kelly's second year his completion percentage was 59.7. Josh Allen's was 58.8 his second year. I see similarities in the leadership column. Jim Kelly had already played two years in the USFL. I think Josh Allen could very well be a franchise quarterback. This year he has to show us the goods.

Edited April 11, 2020 by first_and_ten

[Billl]

11 minutes ago, first_and_ten said:

In Jim Kelly's second year his completion percentage was 59.7. Josh Allen's was 58.8 his second year. I see similarities in the leadership column. Jim Kelly had already played two years in the USFL. I think Josh Allen could very well be a franchise quarterback. This year he has to show us the goods.

In Jim Kelly’s second season, Joe Montana led the league at 61.3%.  Last year, Brees completed 73.4%.