thebandit27 Posted April 10, 2020 Posted April 10, 2020 19 hours ago, SoTier said: The Bills' FO and HC's actions in 2018 are hardly "ancient history" that have no bearing on their evaluations going forward, especially if Allen and/or the team don't take their next steps this season or next. . Beane and McDermott have managed to make the playoffs twice in 3 seasons and they've actually won 10 games in a single season for the first time in this century, but they only have two poor losses in the wild card round to show for that. When -- if -- the Bills become a perennial playoff team and bonafide SB contender under Beane and McDermott with Allen as their QB then their repeated errors in 2018 will cease to matter. It's hardly "unrealistic expectations" for QBs who are something special to show that talent early. The Allen cheerleaders on this thread like to pretend that great QBs putting in outstanding performances very early in their careers is a recent phenomenon, but it's not. 1999 - Peyton Manning took the Colts to the AFCE division title as a sophomore. 2001 -Tom Brady took the Pats to a Lombardi in his first year as a starter. 2005 - Ben Roethlisberger took the Steelers to a Super Bowl win in his second season. 2008 - Matt Ryan took the Falcons to the playoffs as a rookie. 2012 -Andrew Luck led the Colts to the playoffs as a rookie and just about every year that he was healthy afterward. 2013 - Russell Wilson led the Seahawks to a Super Bowl win as a sophomore after taking them to the NFC title game as a rookie. 2017 - Carson Wentz was the leading candidate for MVP in his sophomore season before injury sidelined him. 2018 - Mahomes was the league MVP in his first year as a starter and took the Chiefs to the AFC Championship and Deshaun Watson led the Texans to the playoffs as a sophomore after playing in only 7 games as rookie because of injury. 2019 - Lamar Jackson, from the same class as Allen and taken 22 spots later at the very end of the first round, was an almost unanimous choice for MVP. Not all great/elite QBs find success in their first or second years in the league -- Brees and Rodgers are two that come to mind immediately -- but by the time they've had two or three years as starters, if they aren't top NFL QBs, they aren't likely to become so. Bortles, Winston, and Mariota are prime examples. We're seeing more young QBs excellent (or fail) earlier now simply because teams are more willing to play their young QBs rather than have them sit behind a starter for a season or two. I want you to read that entire list over again and then add to it the following: Josh Allen took a perennially moribund franchise to a 10-6 record and a playoff berth, scoring more TDs than all but 5 other QBs, in his 2nd season out of Wyoming. See how easy it is to simply disregard context and make a case with a one-liner? 2
Straight Hucklebuck Posted April 10, 2020 Posted April 10, 2020 5 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: Of those the only one I thought they gave up too early on was Fitz. Not that I think he was gonna prove to be the guy or anything but Fitz could play. You don't give up on him to force draft a guy from a poor QB class. They should have taken a mid round guy the year before... cough Wilson cough.... You can’t do that when you go 4-12, 6-10 and 6-10 with Fitzpatrick and your GM gets pranked and caught on a recorded line saying the organization is struggling with Quarterback and it’s “a helluva time to need one”.
GunnerBill Posted April 10, 2020 Posted April 10, 2020 3 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said: You can’t do that when you go 4-12, 6-10 and 6-10 with Fitzpatrick and your GM gets pranked and caught on a recorded line saying the organization is struggling with Quarterback and it’s “a helluva time to need one”. No that didn't help.
SoTier Posted April 10, 2020 Posted April 10, 2020 9 hours ago, oldmanfan said: You’re assuming the only victories will be moral. Could that be because you’re one of those hoping to justify your notion that Allen was a bad draft puck so you can brag about being right? I think that your agenda in this thread is and has been to deflect any and all criticism of Allen or the Bills by continually accusing posters who raise issues with Allen or the Bills of essentially not being good Bills fans. It's getting to be as old as you claim you are. 2 hours ago, oldmanfan said: When they won the AFL with Kemp there were those who still wanted Lamonica. While only 9 years old I was one of them. And you probably remember those who claimed we would have won a SB if Reich had played instead of Kelly. If we win a SB with Allen the vast majority will celebrate Allen. But there will be those few who don’t give him credit. We all know that; not that it makes sense but we all know that. I rest my case about your agenda. You persist in blaming fans daring to criticize the Bills no matter how deep into the manure pile you have to dive to do it. FTR, Jack Kemp's career was entirely in the AFL when it was clearly a lesser league than the NFL. While Kemp was a three time AFL all star/pro bowl player, Daryl Lamonica, who sat behind Kemp for 4 seasons before he was traded to Oakland in 1967, became a 2 time AFL all star/pro bowler and All Pro, including in his very first year in Oakland. Lamonica then went on to be a 2 time NFL Pro Bowler. He was the Raiders' starting QB for 6 seasons and led them to 6 playoff seasons, including a Super Bowl appearance in 1967. It seems to me that maybe those fans that wanted Lamonica over Kemp were smarter than Ralph Wilson. 8 hours ago, Mango said: Maybe McD should have thought about that before trading their LT and WR1. Or before they failed to resign Woods and Goodwin. They could have taken a minute before they cut Shady for Gore. It’s not like they inherited a roster devoid of talent. They did all that and their replacements were Zay effing Jones and Kelvin “Buffet Line” Benjamin. And who was originally going to throw to this star studded line up you ask? Nathan ***** Peterman. 2018 was an absolute blunder that is nobodies fault other than this regimes. They have rebounded nicely and aggressively, but they, nor Josh, get a handicap because they messed up. Exactly this. I didn't like the Bills drafting Allen because IMO he wasn't a good enough prospect coming out of college to be worth what they gave up to get him. However, what really, really fries me is that after giving up a fortune to get Allen, the geniuses running the Bills -- that would be Beane and McDermott under Russ Brandon's -- and maybe Terry Pegula's -- "money ball" philosophy -- failed to support him. He was set up for failure in 2018 since the Bills didn't even bother to hire a bonafide QB coach for him, something for which there was absolutely no excuse. I think the firing of Russ Brandon in May 2018 resulted in Beane being freed from having to conform to strict "money ball" limits, and that was why he was able to successfully rebuild much of the offense in 2019 -- including replacing most of the offensive coaching staff and adding a real QB coach -- and at least give Allen a fighting chance to become a franchise QB rather than another failed QB. This season it's on Allen to prove himself. 2 1 1
SoTier Posted April 10, 2020 Posted April 10, 2020 1 hour ago, thebandit27 said: I want you to read that entire list over again and then add to it the following: Josh Allen took a perennially moribund franchise to a 10-6 record and a playoff berth, scoring more TDs than all but 5 other QBs, in his 2nd season out of Wyoming. See how easy it is to simply disregard context and make a case with a one-liner? Excuse me but you'll notice I didn't include Joe Flacco, Mark Sanchez, Robert Griffin or Andy Dalton, all QBs who took their teams to the playoffs as rookies. The QBs I mentioned were/are among the best QBs in the NFL and they all demonstrated that their quality early on. My point is that it's not "unrealistic" to expect outstanding QBs to show their stuff early on as several posters on this thread keep using as an excuse for Bills fans to not expect Allen to play better this season.
thebandit27 Posted April 10, 2020 Posted April 10, 2020 36 minutes ago, SoTier said: Excuse me but you'll notice I didn't include Joe Flacco, Mark Sanchez, Robert Griffin or Andy Dalton, all QBs who took their teams to the playoffs as rookies. The QBs I mentioned were/are among the best QBs in the NFL and they all demonstrated that their quality early on. My point is that it's not "unrealistic" to expect outstanding QBs to show their stuff early on as several posters on this thread keep using as an excuse for Bills fans to not expect Allen to play better this season. What? No. You really need to go back and look at the numbers from Wentz, Luck, and Ben in year 2 and compare them to Allen’s. You’ll be shocked. 1
AlCowlingsTaxiService Posted April 10, 2020 Posted April 10, 2020 4 hours ago, GunnerBill said: I don't remember Kelly and Reich I have only followed the NFL since 2002. I really do not think there will be Bills fans saying Allen deserves no credit if they win the Superbowl. Oh trust me, there will be ... it’s inevitable with Bills fans
Straight Hucklebuck Posted April 10, 2020 Posted April 10, 2020 (edited) On 4/5/2020 at 1:21 PM, Mango said: I love Josh the leader and the person. He is electric to watch play football. But I have yet to like Josh the passer. At times I think he needs to work on his consistency. At worst, he’s not a quality passer of the football. I think that’s a fair place to be. I do think we should look at his rate of improvement. And he has absolutely improved in some areas, just not there yet. I also think we should measure Josh’s improvements outside of upgraded surrounding cast. So last season we upgraded the OL and WR from bad to average/meh. Did we see a significant improvement above supporting cast? Similarly, if Josh got 0% better this season (which I don’t expect) but the OL has another year of continuity and adding Diggs makes his WR Corp top flight, what are we expecting in terms of production just because of cast. Anything above that is Josh. Obviously it is difficult to provide clear lines and is much more nuanced, but I think it is important to keep in mind. I think Diggs and the OL alone should be about 4% completion and 600 more passing yards-ish This is a balanced and fair opinion. When he was provided time to scan the field, and push the ball down the middle of the field, he was a better Quarterback. The uptick is fumbles diminishes some of that improvement, but I think, for me, the aspect of Allen that holds me back from certainty is the offense struggles to put points on the board, too many three and outs, to many dead third quarters. Many games are still 19-20 points scored, with the defense keeping the opponent to 16 points. Allen’s peak was the Cowboys game, anticipation throw to Beasley, arm strength with the end zone throw, the calm in the pocket to stand for 3 seconds and fire the ball straight. He made things happen. So in 2020, his numbers have to go up. He dropped back 46 times against Houston and largely the Bills flat lined from the 3rd Quarter onwards. The offense has to score more. You likely aren’t getting 16 ppg out of the defense and that schedule again. 2018 he played exactly like his scouting reports said he would. 2019 he played on the positive side of his scouting reports. Let’s see in 2020 if he can break out of the boom/bust mode and consistently put points on the board. That’s how we really win by league standards, not just improvement on the Buffalo standard. One thing going for Allen, by all accounts he works incredibly hard and is dedicated to his craft. Edited April 10, 2020 by Straight Hucklebuck 1 1
oldmanfan Posted April 10, 2020 Posted April 10, 2020 1 hour ago, SoTier said: I think that your agenda in this thread is and has been to deflect any and all criticism of Allen or the Bills by continually accusing posters who raise issues with Allen or the Bills of essentially not being good Bills fans. It's getting to be as old as you claim you are. I rest my case about your agenda. You persist in blaming fans daring to criticize the Bills no matter how deep into the manure pile you have to dive to do it. FTR, Jack Kemp's career was entirely in the AFL when it was clearly a lesser league than the NFL. While Kemp was a three time AFL all star/pro bowl player, Daryl Lamonica, who sat behind Kemp for 4 seasons before he was traded to Oakland in 1967, became a 2 time AFL all star/pro bowler and All Pro, including in his very first year in Oakland. Lamonica then went on to be a 2 time NFL Pro Bowler. He was the Raiders' starting QB for 6 seasons and led them to 6 playoff seasons, including a Super Bowl appearance in 1967. It seems to me that maybe those fans that wanted Lamonica over Kemp were smarter than Ralph Wilson. Exactly this. I didn't like the Bills drafting Allen because IMO he wasn't a good enough prospect coming out of college to be worth what they gave up to get him. However, what really, really fries me is that after giving up a fortune to get Allen, the geniuses running the Bills -- that would be Beane and McDermott under Russ Brandon's -- and maybe Terry Pegula's -- "money ball" philosophy -- failed to support him. He was set up for failure in 2018 since the Bills didn't even bother to hire a bonafide QB coach for him, something for which there was absolutely no excuse. I think the firing of Russ Brandon in May 2018 resulted in Beane being freed from having to conform to strict "money ball" limits, and that was why he was able to successfully rebuild much of the offense in 2019 -- including replacing most of the offensive coaching staff and adding a real QB coach -- and at least give Allen a fighting chance to become a franchise QB rather than another failed QB. This season it's on Allen to prove himself. Stop with your nonsense. First of all I have said (and this is the third time now) that I think Allen has about a 70:30 chance of being the guy, and that he has things he must improve on going forward. So drop your crap about continually deflecting any and all criticism about Allen. All it shows is you either don't know how to read or refuse to acknowledge what your read. When you say that you just look ridiculous. Second, as I pointed out in another thread, they made a big mistake not bringing in another veteran when they cut McCarron. You know who else recognized that? A guy named Beane. He admitted he made a mistake, and I for one am glad we have a GM that can recognize errors and take responsibility vs. a guy who refuses to admit he could be wrong about a personnel decision. But you continue to bring this up again and again and again like some puppy dog chewing on his favorite chew toy. Beane and McDermott aren't perfect, they have made mistakes and the backup one to Allen early on as one of them. Which they admitted and corrected now with Barkley. Third, I am not "blaming" fans about Allen. All I have said is that there a few fans around here who got it into their heads when Allen was drafted was never going to be the guy, and no matter what he does will keep that opinion. You and I both know that's true; any cursory analysis of threads over the past two years shows that, and everyone on this board knows that. And to be fair, there are also those very few fans who feel Allen is already a great QB, and again any cursory analysis shows these pie in the sky types exist as well. Both extremes are off base. The vast majority of fans here are like me and like you: they see Allen doing good things and they see Allen doing bad things, they see that he has made progress over the last two years and hope he continues this coming year. Some are more optimistic, some less. So you can take you stuff about me blasting fans as if I'm blasting everyone on the board and stick it. Oh, and I notice you once again have to bring Brandon into the equation, another one of your fixations. You honestly think that $$ kept McD from hiring coaches he wanted as if coaching salaries are that big a dent into the budget. The guy has been gone for years now, the Bills have made the playoffs two of the last three years (and yes they now have to get there and win) but you have to bring Brandon back up. It's like a Pavlovian thing with you, any post goes up you reflexively have to bring up Brandon or the above mentioned QB thing. I'm just stunned you haven't brought up your usual thing about how all Ralph cared about was $$ and that the current administration is the same way even though Terry is, you know, not Ralph. I wan pretty ticked off about Harvey Johnson myself, maybe I should bring him up to blame current staff about issues they have? That would make as much sense as what you continually offer. Allen has things to prove this season. Again the vast majority of posters here including myself recognize that. Some don't on either side of the spectrum. That is reality. 41 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said: This is a balanced and fair opinion. When he was provided time to scan the field, and push the ball down the middle of the field, he was a better Quarterback. The uptick is fumbles diminishes some of that improvement, but I think, for me, the aspect of Allen that holds me back from certainty is the offense struggles to put points on the board, too many three and outs, to many dead third quarters. Many games are still 19-20 points scored, with the defense keeping the opponent to 16 points. Allen’s peak was the Cowboys game, anticipation throw to Beasley, arm strength with the end zone throw, the calm in the pocket to stand for 3 seconds and fire the ball straight. He made things happen. So in 2020, his numbers have to go up. He dropped back 46 times against Houston and largely the Bills flat lined from the 3rd Quarter onwards. The offense has to score more. You likely aren’t getting 16 ppg out of the defense and that schedule again. 2018 he played exactly like his scouting reports said he would. 2019 he played on the positive side of his scouting reports. Let’s see in 2020 if he can break out of the boom/bust mode and consistently put points on the board. That’s how we really win by league standards, not just improvement on the Buffalo standard. One thing going for Allen, by all accounts he works incredibly hard and is dedicated to his craft. I was overly harsh on one of your posts earlier today. I agree with what you've posted here..
Nihilarian Posted April 10, 2020 Posted April 10, 2020 24 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said: One thing going for Allen, by all accounts he works incredibly hard and is dedicated to his craft. That's more than one thing. I'd like to add that Allen has a burning desire to win which is so infectious it raises up he teammates passion for the game. Case in point was in the 2018 Viking games in which he hurdles Anthony Barr... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avWAVEhD22Q Another case in point was that 2019 Dallas game after a miss handle snap fumble... Allen was raised on a farm so he is no stranger to hard work, getting up early and working hard all day. Josh knew that he wasn't ready for prime time NFL right out of college so he went to work with Jordan Palmer on his footwork, mechanics before the 2018 draft and has kept working with him each off season. An interesting conversation with Mike Mayock before the 2018 NFL draft. Watch this interview and you understand how smart, dedicated this kid is to his craft. He went to Junior college because no big time college would give him a scholarship at 6'3'' 180lbs. Allen sent emails to over 1000 colleges and only two responded. Wyoming and Eastern Michigan who rescinded their offer when they found out he was talking to Wyoming. Allen won bowl games at Wyoming with a bunch of nobodies. When you really research Josh Allen prior to the 2018 draft you understand why Beane traded up for Allen. Its also my thought that someone released some nasty tweets by Allen pre draft so he might fall from that #1 spot for Cleveland, or even that #3 spot by the the Jets. https://ftw.usatoday.com/2018/04/2018-nfl-draft-josh-allen-history-rise-to-top-pick
Straight Hucklebuck Posted April 10, 2020 Posted April 10, 2020 3 hours ago, oldmanfan said: I was overly harsh on one of your posts earlier today. I agree with what you've posted here.. No problem man, thanks for this post.
SoTier Posted April 10, 2020 Posted April 10, 2020 6 hours ago, thebandit27 said: I want you to read that entire list over again and then add to it the following: Josh Allen took a perennially moribund franchise to a 10-6 record and a playoff berth, scoring more TDs than all but 5 other QBs, in his 2nd season out of Wyoming. See how easy it is to simply disregard context and make a case with a one-liner? Sorry to rain on your parade with facts, dude, but the Bills were NOT "moribund" before Allen became the starter since they went 9-7 in 2014, 8-8 in 2015, 7-9 in 2016, and 9-7 in 2017, including making the playoffs despite McDermott and Beane industriously dismantling the offense beginning in 2017. The Bills offense under Allen in 2019 was only marginally improved over the offenses the Bills fielded under Fitzpatrick, Orton and Taylor -- and the Bills have still not won a playoff game since 1995. 1
BillsCelticsAngelsBama Posted April 10, 2020 Posted April 10, 2020 15 hours ago, Lieutenant Aldo Raine said: Let me guess? Josh won't win the Lombardi because you coached lower division football and you have the wisdom to know all things QB? Is this your motive and your illustrious coaching pedigree is your merit? What if one were to say you never made to the big leagues because you were an overrated PE Teacher, because that is how you judging Josh. LOL. New most non-sensical post of the off season. It's not worth discussing with you. Blessings to you !
thebandit27 Posted April 10, 2020 Posted April 10, 2020 (edited) 12 minutes ago, SoTier said: Sorry to rain on your parade with facts, dude, but the Bills were NOT "moribund" before Allen became the starter since they went 9-7 in 2014, 8-8 in 2015, 7-9 in 2016, and 9-7 in 2017, including making the playoffs despite McDermott and Beane industriously dismantling the offense beginning in 2017. The Bills offense under Allen in 2019 was only marginally improved over the offenses the Bills fielded under Fitzpatrick, Orton and Taylor -- and the Bills have still not won a playoff game since 1995. A team that went to the playoffs once in 17 seasons because of a miraculous last-second TD by a team playing for nothing wasn’t moribund in your opinion? No offense, but I think it’s safe for me to disregard your opinion (because that’s what it is, not a fact) on this particular item. By the way, did you actually take a look at the numbers of the 3 guys you mentioned in year 2 as I suggested? Edited April 10, 2020 by thebandit27
Straight Hucklebuck Posted April 10, 2020 Posted April 10, 2020 3 hours ago, Nihilarian said: When you really research Josh Allen prior to the 2018 draft you understand why Beane traded up for Allen. From the human standpoint he’s been absolutely spot on. He works hard, he says the right things, he’s competitive. Much different than Trent Edwards, who ran out of bounds on 4th down to end the game. 1
TwistofFate Posted April 10, 2020 Posted April 10, 2020 (edited) Allen has not proven himself to be a franchise guy at all. This is his make it or break it season. There is zero excuses. Same system for multiple years, he's a veteran, and he has weapons everywhere, more than any Qb has had in Buffalo in 20 years. Call me skeptical, but I think his accuracy will be his down fall. I don't think he has the accuracy to be a franchise guy at this level. He needs to put up this year or buffalo really needs to re-evaluate the Qb position next off-season. Edited April 10, 2020 by TwistofFate
thebandit27 Posted April 10, 2020 Posted April 10, 2020 1 minute ago, TwistofFate said: Allen has not proven himself to be a franchise guy at all. This is his make it or break it season. There is zero excuses. Same system for multiple years, he's a veteran, and he has weapons everywhere, more than any Qb has had in Buffalo in 20 years. Call me skeptical, but I think his accuracy will be his down fall. I don't think he has the accuracy to be a franchise guy at this level. He needs to put up this year or buffalo really needs to re-evaluate the Qb position next off-season. I like Diggs/Smoke/Beasley/Motor, but you’re joking if you say that the current group of skill players is better than Watkins, Woods, Harvin, Hogan, Shady, Clay, and rookie Karlos. 2
TwistofFate Posted April 10, 2020 Posted April 10, 2020 1 minute ago, thebandit27 said: I like Diggs/Smoke/Beasley/Motor, but you’re joking if you say that the current group of skill players is better than Watkins, Woods, Harvin, Hogan, Shady, Clay, and rookie Karlos. They are way better. Its not even close.
thebandit27 Posted April 10, 2020 Posted April 10, 2020 Just now, TwistofFate said: They are way better. Its not even close. What? I’d LOVE to hear your support for that. I mean, it feels like a stretch of epic proportions to even claim that the current group is in the same conversation. Just look at the numbers. Seriously. The only way someone could make this statement is if the ignore literally all of the statistics and just pretend. 1
TwistofFate Posted April 10, 2020 Posted April 10, 2020 3 minutes ago, thebandit27 said: What? I’d LOVE to hear your support for that. I mean, it feels like a stretch of epic proportions to even claim that the current group is in the same conversation. Just look at the numbers. Seriously. The only way someone could make this statement is if the ignore literally all of the statistics and just pretend. Huh? Bro..Watkins has nothing on Diggs. The dude can nearly be considered a bust. He had one 1k yard season in his whole career, can not stay healthy, and is very inconsistent. Woods can be considered equal at best to Beasley. Both great route runners with possession skills. Harvin to Brown is laughable. Harvin barely had 1k yards receiving in his final 4 years as a pro, and a whopping 200+ as a Bill. Shady is over the hill and Motor is the younger prime version of him. Clay? Lol A waste of money. This team is about to field two 1,000+ yard Wrs from the previous year, a slot reciever with nearly 800 yards receiving from the previous year, a 2nd year back with explosive play making abilities who averaged over 5 yards a carry last season, and you are trying to tell me these arent the best weapons on the field in 20 years? Lol 1
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