I don’t get the hate that Josh Allen gets around here.

[Straight Hucklebuck]

9 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

He improved from year one to year two.  There is no reason to expect that he won’t continue to improve in year three.  
 

But his future is bright.  The vast majority on this board understand this; that he has positives and negatives although some slant more either way.

 

The one great constant in Bills football, the Kelly years being the exception, is that fans are never satisfied with their QB, that it’s always the backup or the next guy that is the guy we need. Allen may be, maybe not.  But it’s clearly too soon to make any kind of definitive pronouncement.

 

For the record I think it’s 70/30 he’s our long term answer.

There are aspects in this post I agree with, and other things that fall into the comfortable zubaz sweatpants of Bills fandom wardrobe.

 

It is reasonable to expect improvement, given how hard Allen works, how serious he takes his job, and as Beane says he is his own worst critic. Stefan Diggs, another year with the same line, backs and receivers, all of the continuity in the Coaching Staff. The continuity stuff is overstated in my opinion, Coaches and GMs have been saying that for years around here, but real work ethic, I agree with.
 

But, the Bills offense still struggles to top 20 points in big games. The average Josh Allen game in 2019 was 1.81 TDS/game (rush and pass), 193 yards passing. The defense held teams to 16 points per game on average and the Bills played an easy schedule. 
 

So it’s not that Allen has improved over his rookie year, it’s can he improve when compared against his peers to a meaningful advantage over his peers. 
 

Some fans are tired of moral victories. The franchise hasn’t won a Playoff game since 1995. Close but no cigar collapses like we saw in Houston are small incremental improvements over the 10-3 loss at Jacksonville in 2017, but it’s the same struggle for points, the same clinging for dear life to the 16-0 lead, despite 46 attempts from Allen.

[SCBills]

1 hour ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

There are aspects in this post I agree with, and other things that fall into the comfortable zubaz sweatpants of Bills fandom wardrobe.

 

It is reasonable to expect improvement, given how hard Allen works, how serious he takes his job, and as Beane says he is his own worst critic. Stefan Diggs, another year with the same line, backs and receivers, all of the continuity in the Coaching Staff. The continuity stuff is overstated in my opinion, Coaches and GMs have been saying that for years around here, but real work ethic, I agree with.
 

But, the Bills offense still struggles to top 20 points in big games. The average Josh Allen game in 2019 was 1.81 TDS/game (rush and pass), 193 yards passing. The defense held teams to 16 points per game on average and the Bills played an easy schedule. 
 

So it’s not that Allen has improved over his rookie year, it’s can he improve when compared against his peers to a meaningful advantage over his peers. 
 

Some fans are tired of moral victories. The franchise hasn’t won a Playoff game since 1995. Close but no cigar collapses like we saw in Houston are small incremental improvements over the 10-3 loss at Jacksonville in 2017, but it’s the same struggle for points, the same clinging for dear life to the 16-0 lead, despite 46 attempts from Allen.

Allen has shown enough to get a chance to shine this year.... if we have the same struggles, you have every right to talk about being tired of moral victories. 
 

Continuity may be overstated, but not on the OL..  It’s pretty common thought around the NFL that this is massive in having a strong OL.  
 

Let’s say we add someone like Akers to the mix with Singletary.  That’s a massive upgrade from the dramatic loss of dynamic ability when Gore came in. 
 

Instead of Brown, Beasley, McKenzie and rookie Knox, we now have Diggs, Brown, Beasley and Knox in his second year.  That isn’t just an upgrade in skill talent... that’s a massive upgrade. 
 

 

Edited April 10, 2020 by SCBills

[oldmanfan]

1 hour ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

There are aspects in this post I agree with, and other things that fall into the comfortable zubaz sweatpants of Bills fandom wardrobe.

 

It is reasonable to expect improvement, given how hard Allen works, how serious he takes his job, and as Beane says he is his own worst critic. Stefan Diggs, another year with the same line, backs and receivers, all of the continuity in the Coaching Staff. The continuity stuff is overstated in my opinion, Coaches and GMs have been saying that for years around here, but real work ethic, I agree with.
 

But, the Bills offense still struggles to top 20 points in big games. The average Josh Allen game in 2019 was 1.81 TDS/game (rush and pass), 193 yards passing. The defense held teams to 16 points per game on average and the Bills played an easy schedule. 
 

So it’s not that Allen has improved over his rookie year, it’s can he improve when compared against his peers to a meaningful advantage over his peers. 
 

Some fans are tired of moral victories. The franchise hasn’t won a Playoff game since 1995. Close but no cigar collapses like we saw in Houston are small incremental improvements over the 10-3 loss at Jacksonville in 2017, but it’s the same struggle for points, the same clinging for dear life to the 16-0 lead, despite 46 attempts from Allen.

You’re assuming the only victories will be moral.  Could that be because you’re one of those hoping to justify your notion that Allen was a bad draft puck so you can brag about being right?

[BigBillsFan]

6 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

You’re assuming the only victories will be moral.  Could that be because you’re one of those hoping to justify your notion that Allen was a bad draft puck so you can brag about being right?

 

Your points make zero sense.

 

If the Bills win the Superbowl 51-3 and Allen throws for 25/32 with 423 yard 4 TDs and rushes for 51 yards NO ONE will say a word about him which shows you're just wrong.

 

This is how you envision this conversation:

"Hey Joe we won the Superbowl!!!"

"F this Randy! Allen succeeded! I'm choosing another team!!! No QB success is going to undermine my scouting ability!"

 

Let's pretend he's right, are you going to admit that he had vision and will you refrain from commenting on the issue because of your lack of vision? Of course not. You're framing him guilty either way. It's juvenile.

 

[loyal2dagame]

10 hours ago, SoTier said:

 

The Bills' FO and HC's actions in 2018 are hardly "ancient history" that have no bearing on their evaluations going forward, especially if Allen and/or the team don't take their next steps this season or next. .  Beane and McDermott have managed to make the playoffs twice in 3 seasons and they've actually won 10 games in a single season for the first time in this century, but they only have two poor losses in the wild card round to show for that.  When -- if -- the Bills become a perennial playoff team and bonafide SB contender under Beane and McDermott with Allen as their QB then their repeated errors in 2018 will cease to matter.

 

 

It's hardly "unrealistic expectations" for QBs who are something special to show that talent early.   The Allen cheerleaders on this thread like to pretend that great QBs putting in outstanding performances very early in their careers is a recent phenomenon, but it's not.  

• 1999 - Peyton Manning took the Colts to the AFCE division title as a sophomore.
• 2001 -Tom Brady took the Pats to a Lombardi in his first year as a starter. 
• 2005 - Ben Roethlisberger took the Steelers to a Super Bowl win in his second season.
• 2008 - Matt Ryan took the Falcons to the playoffs as a rookie.
• 2012 -Andrew Luck led the Colts to the playoffs as a rookie and just about every year that he was healthy afterward.
• 2013 - Russell Wilson led the Seahawks to a Super Bowl win as a sophomore after taking them to the NFC title game as a rookie. 
• 2017 - Carson Wentz was the leading candidate for MVP in his sophomore season before injury sidelined him. 
• 2018 - Mahomes was the league MVP in his first year as a starter and took the Chiefs to the AFC Championship and Deshaun Watson led the Texans to the playoffs as a sophomore after playing in only 7 games as rookie because of injury.
• 2019 - Lamar Jackson, from the same class as Allen and taken 22 spots later at the very end of the first round,  was an almost unanimous choice for MVP. 

 

Not all great/elite QBs find success in their first or second years in the league  -- Brees and Rodgers are two that come to mind immediately -- but by the time they've had two or three years as starters, if they aren't top NFL QBs, they aren't likely to become so.   Bortles, Winston, and Mariota are prime examples.   We're seeing more young QBs excellent (or fail) earlier now simply because teams are more willing to play their young QBs rather than have them sit behind a starter for a season or two.

 

the 1999 colts had Manning, Marvin Harrison, and Edge James on offense

2001 Pats* had Brady/Bledsoe, Antwain Smith and Troy Brown on offense

2005 Steelers had Big Ben, Willie Parker, Bettis, Randle El, and Hines Ward on offense- stacked

2008 Dirty Birds had Ryan, M. Turner, Roddy White, Michael Jenkins, Brian Finneran on offense

2012 Colts had Luck, Wayne and Hilton(probably the weakest offensive weapons by team on this list)

2013 Seahawks - Wilson, Lynch, Tate, Baldwin, Miller, Kearse

2017 Iggles had Wentz/Foles, and a bunch of good not great offensive players

2018 Chiefs were stacked with offensive weapons- no need to list

2019- Ravens- had a good run until Buffalo exposed their run-pass option offense and how to defend it. 

 

most of the Qb's you referenced had one thing in common- great weapons to play with. Allen is going into a season where his weapons look great on paper. In his first year they were poor. Second year upgraded to good. Now they should be great. Lets see how this year goes.  Patients.....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Straight Hucklebuck]

57 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

You’re assuming the only victories will be moral.  Could that be because you’re one of those hoping to justify your notion that Allen was a bad draft puck so you can brag about being right?

I wasn’t bashing Josh Allen at all, and I’m not trying to brag about being “right“.

 

I acknowledged his real improvement in 2019 over 2018 and said he works hard. Those were compliments of Allen.

 

I’m just saying for the Bills to really win on a significant level, Allen has to get much better against his peers, not just improving on himself. 
 

Bottom line, he has to get this team into the end zone more often than he has the first two years, even if you’re counting rushing and passing TDs.

 

That’s all. Not a bash, just a realistic view of Allen in Year 3. Whereas, let’s say a Darnold, has to show he can even stay healthy enough to be viable. 

Edited April 10, 2020 by Straight Hucklebuck

[Lieutenant Aldo Raine]

Based much on the recent media attention, pundits, and fans in general, it appears the two QBs who were criticized the most pre-draft are the stars starting to break out of the 2018 draft pack.  Of course I'm talking about Josh and Lamar Jackson, and the Bills have one of them.  You really don't hear much hype for Baker, Sam, Mason, or the "Other Josh" anymore.  The other QBs were supposed to be most pro-ready, and granted Baker had a really good first year.  However, the two QBs who clearly have an arrow pointed upward were to the two with the most question marks - Josh and Lamar and they are both getting better.  I have really high hope for those two because I love to see people who are constantly picked apart rise above!

[BillsCelticsAngelsBama]

On 4/8/2020 at 12:47 PM, Hampton Josh fan said:

You're looking for something that doesn't exist. A first round QB, runs 4+ years unless he sucks. Just jump on the JA train and try and go against your natural inclination to think everyone on your team will fail. The alternative is some journeyman you'll say stinks also.

Useless post of the off season. When did I say to get rid of him ???? I just don't think he will ever be good enough to win the Lombardi. You're logic is very flawed. Sorry bro but assuming I think "everyone on my team will fail" is really …..kind of  ignorant . Hoping that you are younger and will learn to not assign motives to people without merit. It can really hurt you in life. Blessings to You.

[Mango]

22 minutes ago, loyal2dagame said:

the 1999 colts had Manning, Marvin Harrison, and Edge James on offense

2001 Pats* had Brady/Bledsoe, Antwain Smith and Troy Brown on offense

2005 Steelers had Big Ben, Willie Parker, Bettis, Randle El, and Hines Ward on offense- stacked

2008 Dirty Birds had Ryan, M. Turner, Roddy White, Michael Jenkins, Brian Finneran on offense

2012 Colts had Luck, Wayne and Hilton(probably the weakest offensive weapons by team on this list)

2013 Seahawks - Wilson, Lynch, Tate, Baldwin, Miller, Kearse

2017 Iggles had Wentz/Foles, and a bunch of good not great offensive players

2018 Chiefs were stacked with offensive weapons- no need to list

2019- Ravens- had a good run until Buffalo exposed their run-pass option offense and how to defend it. 

 

most of the Qb's you referenced had one thing in common- great weapons to play with. Allen is going into a season where his weapons look great on paper. In his first year they were poor. Second year upgraded to good. Now they should be great. Lets see how this year goes.  Patients.....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Maybe McD should have thought about that before trading their LT and WR1. Or before they failed to resign Woods and Goodwin. They could have taken a minute before they cut Shady for Gore. It’s not like they inherited a roster devoid of talent. 

 

They did all that and their replacements were Zay effing Jones and Kelvin “Buffet Line” Benjamin. And who was originally going to throw to this star studded line up you ask? Nathan ***** Peterman. 2018 was an absolute blunder that is nobodies fault other than this regimes. 

 

They have rebounded nicely and aggressively, but they, nor Josh,  get a handicap because they messed up. 

[Lieutenant Aldo Raine]

14 minutes ago, MOVALLEYRANDY said:

Useless post of the off season. When did I say to get rid of him ???? I just don't think he will ever be good enough to win the Lombardi. You're logic is very flawed. Sorry bro but assuming I think "everyone on my team will fail" is really …..kind of  ignorant . Hoping that you are younger and will learn to not assign motives to people without merit. It can really hurt you in life. Blessings to You.

 

Let me guess?  Josh won't win the Lombardi because you coached lower division football and you have the wisdom to know all things QB?  Is this your motive and your illustrious coaching pedigree is your merit?  What if one were to say you never made to the big leagues because you were an overrated PE Teacher, because that is how you judging Josh.

[loyal2dagame]

36 minutes ago, Mango said:

 

Maybe McD should have thought about that before trading their LT and WR1. Or before they failed to resign Woods and Goodwin. They could have taken a minute before they cut Shady for Gore. It’s not like they inherited a roster devoid of talent. 

 

They did all that and their replacements were Zay effing Jones and Kelvin “Buffet Line” Benjamin. And who was originally going to throw to this star studded line up you ask? Nathan ***** Peterman. 2018 was an absolute blunder that is nobodies fault other than this regimes. 

 

They have rebounded nicely and aggressively, but they, nor Josh,  get a handicap because they messed up. 

I'm not handicapping or offering mulligans to anyone. The players that are gone don't even matter at this point.  None of them. This team wouldn't have been built the way it has with them here. 

 I'll say it again,  I'm pro-Allen all the way, but this has to be his takeover year with the way the offense is built now. I'm not saying Superbowl or bust,  but the Bills offense needs to run like a V-12 engine instead of a 6 cylinder minivan. 

[oldmanfan]

5 hours ago, BigBillsFan said:

 

Your points make zero sense.

 

If the Bills win the Superbowl 51-3 and Allen throws for 25/32 with 423 yard 4 TDs and rushes for 51 yards NO ONE will say a word about him which shows you're just wrong.

 

This is how you envision this conversation:

"Hey Joe we won the Superbowl!!!"

"F this Randy! Allen succeeded! I'm choosing another team!!! No QB success is going to undermine my scouting ability!"

 

Let's pretend he's right, are you going to admit that he had vision and will you refrain from commenting on the issue because of your lack of vision? Of course not. You're framing him guilty either way. It's juvenile.

 

I already said it’s 70:30 Allen becomes the guy so if his scenario as you put it turns out correct I would not be totally shocked.  And if and hopefully when we win the whole thing and Allen did have a game like you described there will be posters who claim it was more a victory for the defense or the WRs or whatever because they will never face up to being wrong about him.   That’s the reality of the situation; I have 60 years watching the irrationality of Bills fans and the QB position advising me on that.

[GunnerBill]

36 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

I already said it’s 70:30 Allen becomes the guy so if his scenario as you put it turns out correct I would not be totally shocked.  And if and hopefully when we win the whole thing and Allen did have a game like you described there will be posters who claim it was more a victory for the defense or the WRs or whatever because they will never face up to being wrong about him.   That’s the reality of the situation; I have 60 years watching the irrationality of Bills fans and the QB position advising me on that.

 

I really do not think this is true. The reason you have sat through 60 years of Bills fans not admitting the QB is good is because bar Jim Kelly (and maybe Kemp I don't know much about the real old days) they haven't been. 

[oldmanfan]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I really do not think this is true. The reason you have sat through 60 years of Bills fans not admitting the QB is good is because bar Jim Kelly (and maybe Kemp I don't know much about the real old days) they haven't been. 

When they won the AFL with Kemp there were those who still wanted Lamonica.  While only 9 years old I was one of them.  And you probably remember those who claimed we would have won a SB if Reich had played instead of Kelly. 

 

If we win a SB with Allen the vast majority will celebrate Allen.  But there will be those few who don’t give him credit.  We all know that; not that it makes sense but we all know that.

[GunnerBill]

2 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

When they won the AFL with Kemp there were those who still wanted Lamonica.  While only 9 years old I was one of them.  And you probably remember those who claimed we would have won a SB if Reich had played instead of Kelly. 

 

If we win a SB with Allen the vast majority will celebrate Allen.  But there will be those few who don’t give him credit.  We all know that; not that it makes sense but we all know that.

 

I don't remember Kelly and Reich I have only followed the NFL since 2002. I really do not think there will be Bills fans saying Allen deserves no credit if they win the Superbowl.

[oldmanfan]

2 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I don't remember Kelly and Reich I have only followed the NFL since 2002. I really do not think there will be Bills fans saying Allen deserves no credit if they win the Superbowl.

I hope you’re right.  

[Straight Hucklebuck]

On 4/4/2020 at 8:01 AM, BuffaloBills1998 said:

Exactly just like what Miami fans did to Tannehill if he’s not playing like Marino then he’s not good enough and that’s completely unfair to do that to any quarterback in that situation and I’m getting the same feeling from some of these fans, Like if Allen can’t play like Kelly Then he’s not good enough and we must move on and find someone else. But that’s the problem if you keep going through a carousel of quarterbacks you’re never going to be able to develop a legitimate  franchise quarterback. There will never be another Marino, Kelly, Moon or Elway. It’s time fans start accepting that

The Bills don’t “go through a carousel of quarterbacks”.

 

They gave three years to Trent Edwards. 2007, 2008, 2009.

 

Three years to Ryan Fitzpatrick: 2010, 2011, 2012.

 

They tried EJ in 2013.

 

Then another backup in Orton for 2014.

 

Then three years of Tyrod Taylor in 2015, 2016, 2017.

 

 

So the Bills have 9 years of the past 13 years where they have tried to make a backup into a starter. Three times they have stuck with a sub-par QB for three years.

 

Instead of a carousel, it’s been garage sales for most of the past 13-15 years.

Edited April 10, 2020 by Straight Hucklebuck

[Tim Tindale]

On 4/6/2020 at 9:46 AM, Nihilarian said:

I don't remember it that way at all. From the day he arrived in Buffalo Jim Kelly was hailed as the new hero, savior of the team. Bills fans went nuts from day one.

 

Now, after that comeback game there might have been some chatter about Riech, but none from anyone I knew. Kelly was "the man" until the day he retired. 

 

On another note, I don't see "that" much hate for Allen. Just some Bills fans that don't realize how difficult it is for a QB to fully develop in the NFL coming from a non big time college program. Like Kirk Cousins stated, it's like taking a drink from a fire hose. 

 

Josh Allen is only two years into a team that is still rebuilding the offense and just now this off season finally found its #1 receiver.  Also, I'm still not sold on Brian Daboll as the OC as there were several games in which he was clearly out coached in 2019. The offense still lacks discipline with far, far too many penalties. Very questionable play calling at times, and the offense did get better when the OC went up in the booth. I'm not sure this is the coach that should be developing a young, inexperienced QB as he has never fielded a top passing offense. Don't forget that Allen didn't even have a real QB coach his first season or a veteran QB to show him the ropes for a lot of his rookie season.

 

Jim Kelly came into Buffalo with WRs Jerry Butler, Andre Reed. TE Pete Metzelaars. RB Rob Riddick already on the team. In that "1984" first season, Reed caught 53 passes, Riddick 49 passes, Metz 49 passes. It took Kelly three seasons to get the Bills into the playoffs.  

Reich v Kelly QB controversy:

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1993-01-21-sp-1899-story.html%3f_amp=true

My favorite part of the article:

 

Yet, there was a public clamor for Reich. Two newspapers from nearby Rochester took a telephone poll that revealed a preference for Reich by a vote of 1,267 to 237.

 

There is definitely a “grass is greener” mentality that football fans have around their QB.  That will never change. 

[Straight Hucklebuck]

13 minutes ago, Tim Tindale said:

Reich v Kelly QB controversy:

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1993-01-21-sp-1899-story.html%3f_amp=true

My favorite part of the article:

 

Yet, there was a public clamor for Reich. Two newspapers from nearby Rochester took a telephone poll that revealed a preference for Reich by a vote of 1,267 to 237.

 

There is definitely a “grass is greener” mentality that football fans have around their QB.  That will never change. 

It will change if the Bills consistently win Playoff games with a good Quarterback by modern NFL standards.

 

There is a segment of Lions fans who are grumbling about Stafford, why? Because it’s been 11-years, they are 0-2 in the Playoffs, and going nowhere with yet another Coach.

 

Bengals fans loved Dalton from 2011-2016, but you lose 5-straight Playoff games and go 2-14 and you end up with the worst attendance in the NFL.

 

Josh goes out and throws for 4,700 yards, 36 TDs and runs for another 6 and the Bills go to the AFC Championship Game? It will be the best season by a Bills QB in 27+ years. 
 

It will take Playoff wins for everyone - McDermott, Beane, Allen the fans. That’s what we’re here for. 

Edited April 10, 2020 by Straight Hucklebuck

[GunnerBill]

24 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

The Bills don’t “go through a carousel of quarterbacks”.

 

They gave three years to Trent Edwards. 2007, 2008, 2009.

 

Three years to Ryan Fitzpatrick: 2010, 2011, 2012.

 

They tried EJ in 2013.

 

Then another backup in Orton for 2014.

 

Then three years of Tyrod Taylor in 2015, 2016, 2017.

 

 

So the Bills have 9 years of the past 13 years where they have tried to make a backup into a starter. Three times they have stuck with a sub-par QB for three years.

 

Instead of a carousel, it’s been garage sales for most of the past 13-15 years.

 

Of those the only one I thought they gave up too early on was Fitz. Not that I think he was gonna prove to be the guy or anything but Fitz could play. You don't give up on him to force draft a guy from a poor QB class. They should have taken a mid round guy the year before... cough Wilson cough....