I don’t get the hate that Josh Allen gets around here.

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, BuffaloBills1998 said:

Again stats are meaningless if your not winning, 8-8 and not making the playoffs is not winning. Stats don’t mean *****. And yes he was one of the reasons they didn’t make the playoffs. Their defense was trash but Dak ( minus the stats) was up and down as well. 

 

I would say their running game was more up and down. There were games last year where they just could not get Zeke going at all and yet continued through sheer bloody mindedness to insist on it. The game against Minnesota where Dak led them down the field in the final minute to win the game and then they took the ball out of his hands in the redzone and gave it to Zeke was in contention for most ridiculous series of playcalling by any coach all season.

 

But on the stats v wins point - I agree. I just counter with the fact that Dak is 40-24 as a starter and has two division titles in 4 years. He has one fewer division title in 4 years than Tony Romo had in 11. If he had gone 8-8 four years in a row I think your point would hold more water.

[GunnerBill]

11 minutes ago, JetsFan20 said:

That’s precisely my point. You can’t tell me that Dak Prescott has more talent than Josh Allen. If Dak can put up those numbers why can’t Josh?

 

Is it coaching? Supporting cast?

 

Tannehill according to PFF and QBR was among the three worst QBs in the league under Gase with the Dolphins. He goes to Tennessee and all of a sudden he looks like Aaron Rodgers. 
 

Perhaps the answer is to build an offense around a running game since defenses are mostly built to stop the pass. 

 

So I am not telling anyone Dak has more talent than Josh. Josh's talent has never really been in question. His ability to put it altogether has. But do I think Josh Allen's ceiling as an NFL Quarterback is higher than Dak Prescott's absolutely. I don't think Dak has had great coaching. I am no Mike McCarthy fan particularly but he will be a coaching upgrade in Dallas. He has had a good line, good running game and slightly above average weapons for the most part and that helps but he is a really, really smart decision maker and a terrific leader. The point on the comparison Dak to Josh is that Dak came into the league with (in my view at least) a higher floor than Josh, but a lower ceiling. He has also been in the league 4 years and Josh Allen 2. Josh can definitely get to those numbers. He could even do it this year. And if he does Bills fans will be desperate for us to pay Josh based on the same criteria they disparage other QBs with. They would be right to be desperate to pay Josh if he does that. The Bills should pay him in those circumstances. The same as Dallas should pay Prescott.

 

As for Tannehill..... I think that was lightening in a bottle. I am sceptical that he has suddenly broken out. That was probably just a career year.

[BuffaloBills1998]

7 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I would say their running game was more up and down. There were games last year where they just could not get Zeke going at all and yet continued through sheer bloody mindedness to insist on it. The game against Minnesota where Dak led them down the field in the final minute to win the game and then they took the ball out of his hands in the redzone and gave it to Zeke was in contention for most ridiculous series of playcalling by any coach all season.

 

But on the stats v wins point - I agree. I just counter with the fact that Dak is 40-24 as a starter and has two division titles in 4 years. He has one fewer division title in 4 years than Tony Romo had in 11. If he had gone 8-8 four years in a row I think your point would hold more water.

Well we don’t know how he’s going to do in McCarthy’s 1980s offense. Although I’m expecting the running game to struggle more now that they lost Fredrick to retirement. Their o line on paper looks a little thin. Don’t know if Dak’s gonna put up the same stats like he did last year but all we can do is wait and see what unfolds

5 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

So I am not telling anyone Dak has more talent than Josh. Josh's talent has never really been in question. His ability to put it altogether has. But do I think Josh Allen's ceiling as an NFL Quarterback is higher than Dak Prescott's absolutely. I don't think Dak has had great coaching. I am no Mike McCarthy fan particularly but he will be a coaching upgrade in Dallas. He has had a good line, good running game and slightly above average weapons for the most part and that helps but he is a really, really smart decision maker and a terrific leader. The point on the comparison Dak to Josh is that Dak came into the league with (in my view at least) a higher floor than Josh, but a lower ceiling. He has also been in the league 4 years and Josh Allen 2. Josh can definitely get to those numbers. He could even do it this year. And if he does Bills fans will be desperate for us to pay Josh based on the same criteria they disparage other QBs with. They would be right to be desperate to pay Josh if he does that. The Bills should pay him in those circumstances. The same as Dallas should pay Prescott.

 

As for Tannehill..... I think that was lightening in a bottle. I am sceptical that he has suddenly broken out. That was probably just a career year.

I liked Tannehill and I think last year proved that he wasn’t the problem in Miami. Was he perfect No, but I think coaching and not giving him an o line or running game during his career in Miami hurt him quite a bit

[GunnerBill]

5 minutes ago, BuffaloBills1998 said:

Well we don’t know how he’s going to do in McCarthy’s 1980s offense. Although I’m expecting the running game to struggle more now that they lost Fredrick to retirement. Their o line on paper looks a little thin. Don’t know if Dak’s gonna put up the same stats like he did last year but all we can do is wait and see what unfolds

I liked Tannehill and I think last year proved that he wasn’t the problem in Miami. Was he perfect No, but I think coaching and not giving him an o line or running game during his career in Miami hurt him quite a bit

 

I think Dak will be just fine this year and Tannehill will regress to the mean. 

[Buftex]

On 4/4/2020 at 6:40 AM, BuffaloBills1998 said:

Well Jim Kelly didn’t play with us when he was 24 I think he was with the Houston Gamblers at that time and the USFL was a lot different than the NFL. I remember Kelly’s first couple years here were complete ass. And a lot of fans wanted him gone and replaced. Honestly there’s a lot of similar things between Allen and Kelly if you think about it. 

I like Alan.  I am all in.  But, I have to disagree with you the way you are remembering things, as far as Kelly's first few years being "comple ass" and fans wanting him gone.  The game was quite a bit different in 1986. Back then, a 3000 passing season put you in the elite status as an NFL quarterback, Now that same standard is about 4500.  Kelly may have had some personal off the field issues, but before 24/7 coverage, most of those were rumors.  I had season tickets Kelly's first 2 seasons, I can promise you, nobody was clamoring to replace him.  It was pretty obvious from his first start against the Jets, he would be one of the upper tier QB's in the league. Fans, being as fickle as they are, didn't really start whispering about Reich replacing him, until that Oilers comback game...Kelly had already lead the team to two Super Bowls, albeit losses.  Some thought that, perhaps, Reich had some magic after the comeback.  That wasn't hardcore fans...it was the bandwagoners who became die-hards when they became a perennial playoff team.

 

I guess what I am trying to say, as somebody who is super excited about the potential of Josh Alan, to pretend he is as far along in his development as an NFL QB as Kelly was, at the same point is not accurate.  No reason he can't get there though.

Edited April 6, 2020 by Buftex

[BigBillsFan]

1 hour ago, BuffaloBills1998 said:

Again stats are meaningless if your not winning, 8-8 and not making the playoffs is not winning. Stats don’t mean *****. And yes he was one of the reasons they didn’t make the playoffs. Their defense was trash but Dak ( minus the stats) was up and down as well.

 

The QB can only play on 1 side of the ball. QBs can't win games, they can only help you win. Brees was 7-9 for 3 years and their offense was great, and Brees was great.

 

Prescott threw for 4900 yards, 65% completion, and 30 TDs to 11 Ints with the 6th best offense in the league.

 

Stats mean you did your job to help the team, but the team couldn't win. Dak did his job.

 

Stats are only meaningless when you build a false perception. A 12-4 Trubisky is fool's gold, a 7-9 Brees is still amazing. QBs don't win games, teams do.

[Don Otreply]

On 4/4/2020 at 3:04 PM, Bangarang said:

Ahh yes the haters. Just like there were EJ haters, Fitz haters and Tyrod haters. Maybe people just want to see better QB play?

As to your last sentence, Of course we do, but Language skills and verbiage use are important when expressing oneself, even on a sports team forum, these folk could stand to try a bit harder when expressing their thoughts if they don’t want to be jumped on when they post,  ya got to admit, they bring this upon themselves,  just sayin... 

 

Go Bills!!!

[oldmanfan]

There are some here, just a few, who want to see him fail so they can brag about being right at the time Allen was drafted.  We all know that.

[BuffaloBills1998]

1 hour ago, BigBillsFan said:

 

The QB can only play on 1 side of the ball. QBs can't win games, they can only help you win. Brees was 7-9 for 3 years and their offense was great, and Brees was great.

 

Prescott threw for 4900 yards, 65% completion, and 30 TDs to 11 Ints with the 6th best offense in the league.

 

Stats mean you did your job to help the team, but the team couldn't win. Dak did his job.

 

Stats are only meaningless when you build a false perception. A 12-4 Trubisky is fool's gold, a 7-9 Brees is still amazing. QBs don't win games, teams do.

I disagree on QBs don’t win games, Dan Marino is a prime example of a QB winning football games completely on his own lol. Same with John Elway in the 80s, he was on some real bad Bronco teams before Shanahan came to town and still managed to win games on his own.

[BritBill]

8 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

There are some here, just a few, who want to see him fail so they can brag about being right at the time Allen was drafted.  We all know that.

 

We now live in a world where being proved right is more important than being successful.

 

Instant gratification nation. 

Edited April 6, 2020 by BritBill
spelling

[Nihilarian]

On 4/4/2020 at 7:11 AM, JMF2006 said:

I have said it before and I will say it again I remember a lot of Bills fans wanting Reich to start over Kelly permanently.

 

Its human nature...the grass is always greener on the other side of the street. 

I don't remember it that way at all. From the day he arrived in Buffalo Jim Kelly was hailed as the new hero, savior of the team. Bills fans went nuts from day one.

 

Now, after that comeback game there might have been some chatter about Riech, but none from anyone I knew. Kelly was "the man" until the day he retired. 

 

On another note, I don't see "that" much hate for Allen. Just some Bills fans that don't realize how difficult it is for a QB to fully develop in the NFL coming from a non big time college program. Like Kirk Cousins stated, it's like taking a drink from a fire hose. 

 

Josh Allen is only two years into a team that is still rebuilding the offense and just now this off season finally found its #1 receiver.  Also, I'm still not sold on Brian Daboll as the OC as there were several games in which he was clearly out coached in 2019. The offense still lacks discipline with far, far too many penalties. Very questionable play calling at times, and the offense did get better when the OC went up in the booth. I'm not sure this is the coach that should be developing a young, inexperienced QB as he has never fielded a top passing offense. Don't forget that Allen didn't even have a real QB coach his first season or a veteran QB to show him the ropes for a lot of his rookie season.

 

Jim Kelly came into Buffalo with WRs Jerry Butler, Andre Reed. TE Pete Metzelaars. RB Rob Riddick already on the team. In that "1984" first season, Reed caught 53 passes, Riddick 49 passes, Metz 49 passes. It took Kelly three seasons to get the Bills into the playoffs.  

[Dr. Who]

15 hours ago, Cripple Creek said:

Sorry, I'm not going back to look at game day threads.  I typically avoid them game days so I won't subject myself to one now.   People say things in the "heat of passion" and I'm not going to hold someone to that.  The post I quoted seemed reasonable to me, likely because it was written when the OP was in a better frame of mind.  

Yes, I understand. The post you quoted is not representative. There are plenty of posts that are not game day where that fella went out of his way to gratuitously bash Allen (i.e., threads not even ostensibly about Allen.) A few folks here qualify for hater in my opinion. I find it rather bizarre that apparently many think there are none. The point is moot, in any event. If there is a season, Josh Allen's play on the field will determine whether or not he's a franchise qb and he should have sufficient experience, continuity, and talent on the field to demonstrate if he's continuing on an upward trajectory or not.

1 hour ago, oldmanfan said:

There are some here, just a few, who want to see him fail so they can brag about being right at the time Allen was drafted.  We all know that.

I thought so, but this thread seems to call that into question.

[Cripple Creek]

42 minutes ago, Dr. Who said:

Yes, I understand. The post you quoted is not representative. There are plenty of posts that are not game day where that fella went out of his way to gratuitously bash Allen (i.e., threads not even ostensibly about Allen.) A few folks here qualify for hater in my opinion. I find it rather bizarre that apparently many think there are none. The point is moot, in any event. If there is a season, Josh Allen's play on the field will determine whether or not he's a franchise qb and he should have sufficient experience, continuity, and talent on the field to demonstrate if he's continuing on an upward trajectory or not.

Amen. 

 

 

[DefenseWins]

 

Here are what PFT says about Allen - starts around 4:20

 

[C.Biscuit97]

On 4/5/2020 at 11:52 AM, oldmanfan said:

Beane admitted they should have brought a vet like Anderson in earlier.  How long do you want to stomp on the corpse of this issue?

I mean it was beyond stupid.  Like starting Nate Peterman stupid.  
 

And it’s amazing how some people think fair criticism (24th in QBR) is hate.  If anything, I like Allen more as a person since we have drafted him. I think he’s a real good dude and have heard nothing but good things about him.  But I’m still not convinced he is consistent enough to be a franchise qb and some fans dismiss his faults a little too easily.  But there isn’t an ounce of hate for him as a dude.

[JESSEFEFFER]

3 hours ago, Nihilarian said:

I don't remember it that way at all. From the day he arrived in Buffalo Jim Kelly was hailed as the new hero, savior of the team. Bills fans went nuts from day one.

 

Now, after that comeback game there might have been some chatter about Riech, but none from anyone I knew. Kelly was "the man" until the day he retired. 

 

On another note, I don't see "that" much hate for Allen. Just some Bills fans that don't realize how difficult it is for a QB to fully develop in the NFL coming from a non big time college program. Like Kirk Cousins stated, it's like taking a drink from a fire hose. 

 

Josh Allen is only two years into a team that is still rebuilding the offense and just now this off season finally found its #1 receiver.  Also, I'm still not sold on Brian Daboll as the OC as there were several games in which he was clearly out coached in 2019. The offense still lacks discipline with far, far too many penalties. Very questionable play calling at times, and the offense did get better when the OC went up in the booth. I'm not sure this is the coach that should be developing a young, inexperienced QB as he has never fielded a top passing offense. Don't forget that Allen didn't even have a real QB coach his first season or a veteran QB to show him the ropes for a lot of his rookie season.

 

Jim Kelly came into Buffalo with WRs Jerry Butler, Andre Reed. TE Pete Metzelaars. RB Rob Riddick already on the team. In that "1984" first season, Reed caught 53 passes, Riddick 49 passes, Metz 49 passes. It took Kelly three seasons to get the Bills into the playoffs.  

 

Art Wander (Tiny Tot of the Kilowatt) advocated for Reich to be the starter for the remainder of the playoffs after the comeback game.  Many felt that way but I don't think anyone was saying that JK should be permanently benched.  He was injured and his return was in question.  That's when Polian had the "Get out of town!" defense for Jim.  That's the way I remember it anyways.

[Lieutenant Aldo Raine]

6 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

I mean it was beyond stupid.  Like starting Nate Peterman stupid.  
 

And it’s amazing how some people think fair criticism (24th in QBR) is hate.  If anything, I like Allen more as a person since we have drafted him. I think he’s a real good dude and have heard nothing but good things about him.  But I’m still not convinced he is consistent enough to be a franchise qb and some fans dismiss his faults a little too easily.  But there isn’t an ounce of hate for him as a dude.

 

Depends on your definition of hate.  Their is hate in the literal sense of the world, and then there is hate in the sense that numerous posters here that have nothing good to say about Allen as the player (not person) in conjunction with their criticism.  In other words, they never have anything good to say about what he may do well or where he is improving.  They're like heat-seeking missiles that only show up to CONSTANTLY remind everyone that he is the 24th ranked QB in QBR, but they never have anything positive to contribute about the kid.  Their are quite a few posters on this forum who constantly show up in these type threads and on game day to bash the kid.  When he screws up in the game, they're all over his a**, but when he is kicking butt it's crickets.  So I understand yours and others frustration with people who like Allen a lot who are more inclined to dismiss his faults a little to easily.  They're are many of us who are frustrated with those who constantly deride and rail on all his flaws but dismiss his intangibles, leadership, and what he does well. That's the non-literal sense of hate.

Edited April 6, 2020 by Lieutenant Aldo Raine

[DCOrange]

9 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Yea they are good. Not great. But good. They were both among the top 6 or 7 Quarterbacks in the league last year. I am higher on Dak than Kirk but I think both still get a little bit looked down upon because they were not highly touted draft prospects. Through 4 years Dak has been every bit as good and at times better than the guys who went #1 and #2 in that draft. 

 

Cousins also gets ridiculed for the primetime game record, which I would argue is probably mostly just a result of playing for bad Washington teams that were generally up against superior competition in their primetime games.

 

Like you said, he's not great, but he's good and people seem to have a misconception that he's a below average starter or average at best.

[C.Biscuit97]

11 hours ago, BuffaloBills1998 said:

Well if I’m Dallas I’m gonna do my due diligence to try to trade up in the draft for a QB since they are rumored to anyways. And next year you have an even better QB class in next years draft. I’d say keep Prescott for the year on the tag, see how it plays out if once again he misses the playoffs then you have your answer on whether to pay him 45 mill year or not and if Prescott doesn’t let up and still thinks he’s worth 45 to 50 mill year and if you’re a position to draft high for a quarterback then you go get that quarterback in the draft presumably Lawrence tag Prescott and look for a trade partner for Dak which I’m sure you can find one and let someone else overpay for Dak while you can get your QB of the future in either this years or next years draft. Also you have Winston who also threw for 5,000 yards and could be just as effective in that offense as Dak is
 

I get it’s a lot of money.  But what are the chances you get someone who passes for 5,000 yards and 30 tds?  
 

it’s weird.  Because I bet if we put a poll up, the majority of fans would pay Allen big money right now.  Yet, people are hesitate to pay Dak.  

58 minutes ago, Lieutenant Aldo Raine said:

 

Depends on your definition of hate.  Their is hate in the literal sense of the world, and then there is hate in the sense that  numerous posters here that have nothing good to say about Allen as the player (not person) in conjunction with your criticism.  In other words, they never have anything good to say about what he may do well or where he is improving.  They're like heat-seeking missiles that only show up to CONSTANTLY remind everyone that he is the 24th ranked QB in QBR, but you never have anything positive to contribute about the kid.  They're are quite a few posters on this forum who constantly show up in these type threads and on game day to bash the kid.  When he screws up in the game, they're all over his a**, but when he is kicking butt it's crickets.  So I understand yours and others frustration with people who like Allen a lot who are more inclined to dismiss his faults a little to easily.  They're are many of us who are frustrated with those who constantly deride and rail on all his flaws but dismiss his intangibles, leadership, and what he does well. That's the non-literal sense of hate.

Good post and I agree with a lot of it.  But I watch other teams.  Bills fans have such a terrible concept of good qb play, with good reason.  200 yards passing is like a miracle for us.  If your nfl qb is averaging less than 200 yards passing and completing under 60% of his passes, it’s below average qb play.  Plain and simple.

 

i definitely see why people can get excited.  He has a great attitude, physical skills, and wants to be great.  My problem is his track record hasn’t really shown a lot of consistent greatness.  There are flashes and quarters/ halves.  But it’s never a whole game (except Miami, his numbers are built on Dolphin Blood).

[BarleyNY]

7 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

There are some here, just a few, who want to see him fail so they can brag about being right at the time Allen was drafted.  We all know that.

There are few things I hate to see more than this.  The garbage argument that the people who question Allen are doing so because they’re bad people.  That they’d rather be able to say “I told you so” rather than see their team win and that there couldn’t possibly be any rational reason why they’d question him.  That’s just lazy and juvenile - and it says a lot about the people who make that argument. 

 

I absolutely didn’t want Allen in the draft and he still shows the traits of why that was.  I can appreciate that he’s the Bills QB and I’d love to be wrong about him.  He’s already hit the top end of the kind of QB that I thought he would be, but I can still (happily) acknowledge that he can still improve (and I hope he does).

 

But is there anyone that thinks that Allen has consistently played as well as we need the starting Bills QB to play?   I sure hope not.  While there is certainly a wide range of opinions about his odds of becoming that level of player, who here is openly rooting for him to fail?  Trolls aside, I think that we’re at about 0% on that one.

Edited April 6, 2020 by BarleyNY