billsfan89 Posted April 8, 2020 Posted April 8, 2020 Darby and Miller (The only two players of consequence in that draft) had very good rookie years. Miller after a up and down start anchored the RG position and looked like a good young piece for an older O-line to have going forward. Darby was a lockdown corner in his rookie year even having some people thinking he was better than Gilmore. Darby even turned in a solid 2016 even if he was a bit of a malcontent. But Miller after a decent 2016 got hamstrung by a change in blocking scheme in 2017 and then when they reverted back to a man to man blocking scheme in 2018 Miller just never got back on track. Darby was a man to man corner and the Bills were switching to a zone scheme so they traded him for the Henry Phillips pick. Darby has actually continued to be a good player for the Eagles he just is always getting hurt. In 2017 he got hurt early and then came back and was a key cog in their defense down the stretch in their super bowl run. In 2018 he played 9 games was good but then got hurt. In 2019 same thing kind of happened although he got hurt late in the season. Now he signed with the Skins. Both Miller and Darby flashed good potential but both of their careers just got derailed for different reasons.
Phil The Thrill Posted April 8, 2020 Posted April 8, 2020 8 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said: You’re crazy if you think he was running that draft. We took Jones and Proehl because McDermott was friends with Jones’ coach and Proehl’s dad. You mean people who tell the truth and not just make up things to fit their agenda. Whaley certainly made mistakes. You shouldn’t trade up for a non-qb in the 1st. EJ (though he believed in the guy and thought Marrone didn’t develop him right and he didnt). But he was never given full power to hire coaches yet worked with every coach they hire. And that 2014 team, next to the 2004 team, might be the most talented team of the last 20 years and probably would have beat our 2 playoffs teams. he’s not close to as bad as he is made out here. Why I am not surprised your a Whaley apologist? Here goes... If Whaley is “not close to as bad he is made out to be,” then why hasn’t he gotten a sniff at front office position in the NFL? Why did he take several lesser positions with the Senior Bowl and the XFL? Also EJ sucked. The greatest QB guru in the world probably couldn’t have gotten more out of him. He was wasn’t a starting QB, so giving Whaley a break for a very poor selection is laughable. Also says a lot. The worst thing you CAN condemn Whaley for is having no freaking clue how to building a team. He has no big QB on his roster yet... the Bills were in cap HELL. It takes some bad decision making and bad contracts to get in that situation. But he did it!!! Oh yeah the 2014 Bills team would surely beat any of the 2 playoffs teams. You know, they were so good that they couldn’t beat a 2-12 Oakland Raiders team with Inaccurate Derek Carr at QB. But yeah.... they’d beat the Bills playoff teams easily. Sure. Doesn’t surprise me that you defend Whaley based on your user name.
Phil The Thrill Posted April 8, 2020 Posted April 8, 2020 4 hours ago, technobot said: Agree with Biscuit. I articulated poorly: I'm not a Whaley fan, but at the same time he was the best by default. Middle age has made all the memories of the drought blur into one hazy nightmare, but Whaley's drafts felt different because we actually hit on a pick or two each year. Levy-Brandon-Nix (and yes Nix is Whaley) had lowered my hopes to the point I just wanted a first/second round pick to pan out and stick, nevermind become a star. This is why McBeane feels next level, because they seem to consistently hit at the top of the draft and find gems in the middle/late rounds. But there have certainly been mistakes. My blame for not building a culture is a shot at ownership: Wilson/Brandon as hand-of-Wilson/and of course the Pegulas. Pairing a GM and head coach who aren't aligned was decided by the level above Whaley. “I’m not a Whaley fan but at the same time he was best by default?” What picks did Whaley hit on? He was a terrible terrible GM. Maybe a notch below Buddy Nix. Oh wait you just mean: EJ Manuel? Sammy Watkins? Ronald Darby? Shaq Lawson? Out of those 4 Darby probably had the best career and that isn’t great.
GunnerBill Posted April 8, 2020 Posted April 8, 2020 (edited) 45 minutes ago, Phil The Thrill said: Why I am not surprised your a Whaley apologist? Here goes... If Whaley is “not close to as bad he is made out to be,” then why hasn’t he gotten a sniff at front office position in the NFL? He hasn't gotten an NFL position but he interviewed for the Browns GM job and was spoken to (though I don't think formally interviewed) by the Packers. Part of the reason Whaley seems to have defenders on here (and I don't think he was a good GM) is because things are regularly written about him that are untrue. EDIT: he was formally interviewed by the Packers for their GM job too. See there is this thing called google.... Edited April 8, 2020 by GunnerBill
Phil The Thrill Posted April 8, 2020 Posted April 8, 2020 (edited) 6 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: He hasn't gotten an NFL position but he interviewed for the Browns GM job and was spoken to (though I don't think formally interviewed) by the Packers. Part of the reason Whaley seems to have defenders on here (and I don't think he was a good GM) is because things are regularly written about him that are untrue. LOL I said he hasn’t gotten another NFL job and your response is.... “well he did get an interview” ?????? What things were said about Whaley that was untrue: His draft record was spotty? He never found a QB? He led the team into cap hell? He hasn’t been hired since he was fired 3 years ago? His teams never made it to the playoffs? Brandon Beane has been a much more successful GM? These are all facts - what is there to defend? How are any of these inaccurate? The blind BLIND love and loyalty some have for Whaley is just pure shocking to me. He was a below average GM...yet fans are cool with that? #droppingknowledge Edited April 8, 2020 by Phil The Thrill
njbuff Posted April 8, 2020 Posted April 8, 2020 Whaley selected a 4th round QB with the 16th overall pick in 2013. All you need to know about that pick is look at the FSU team the second Manuel left. They dominated and won with a red-shirt freshman QB on the same team Manuel had the year before. Selecting EJ Manuel would eventually get even the greatest GM's of all time fired.
GunnerBill Posted April 8, 2020 Posted April 8, 2020 5 minutes ago, Phil The Thrill said: LOL I said he hasn’t gotten another NFL job and your response is.... “well he did get an interview” ?????? What things were said about Whaley that was untrue: His draft record was spotty? He never found a QB? He led the team into cap hell? He hasn’t been hired since he was fired 3 years ago? His teams never made it to the playoffs? Brandon Beane has been a much more successful GM? These are all facts - what is there to defend? How are any of these inaccurate? The blind BLIND love and loyalty some have for Whaley is just pure shocking to me. He was a below average GM...yet fans are cool with that? #droppingknowledge You said he hadn't got a sniff at another NFL job. That my friend, is definitively incorrect. He had a "sniff" at two GM jobs. I repeat that I don't think he was a good GM. I think it was time for him to go and of the questions the only one I'd disagree with is "cap hell". The Bills were not in cap hell. Cap hell is cutting starters to meet the cap. The Bills were $23m under the cap going into the 2017 offseason. That is right at league average and they had 39 guys under contract which is a little below league average but only just (it is right about 41). They also had the potential to save significant additional space by not picking up Tyrod Taylor's option. I love McDermott and like Beane but the cap hell narrative was partly them spinning it for their own benefit and partly them causing it by trading guys that left dead cap. The reason some folks think Whaley has defenders is because some of the things said about him.... like "no sniff of an NFL job" are verifiabley untrue. 3 minutes ago, njbuff said: Whaley selected a 4th round QB with the 16th overall pick in 2013. All you need to know about that pick is look at the FSU team the second Manuel left. They dominated and won with a red-shirt freshman QB on the same team Manuel had the year before. Selecting EJ Manuel would eventually get even the greatest GM's of all time fired. See if I had "blind love" for Doug Whaley I would point out that he did not in fact select EJ Manuel because the GM was Buddy Nix. But I am not a blind defender and the same as no human in their right mind can honestly argue Doug Whaley passed on Watson and Mahomes because McDermott ran that draft, no human in their right mind can honestly argue Doug Whaley wasn't an integral part in the drafting of EJ Manuel. My only blind loyalty is to the truth.
Phil The Thrill Posted April 8, 2020 Posted April 8, 2020 (edited) 9 minutes ago, njbuff said: Whaley selected a 4th round QB with the 16th overall pick in 2013. All you need to know about that pick is look at the FSU team the second Manuel left. They dominated and won with a red-shirt freshman QB on the same team Manuel had the year before. Selecting EJ Manuel would eventually get even the greatest GM's of all time fired. Thank you. It’s as simple as that. Of course, the Whaley apologists will say Buddy made the pick, despite the fact Whaley said he was involved in the selection and seemed to verify it by drafting Sammy. 6 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: You said he hadn't got a sniff at another NFL job. That my friend, is definitively incorrect. He had a "sniff" at two GM jobs. I repeat that I don't think he was a good GM. I think it was time for him to go and of the questions the only one I'd disagree with is "cap hell". The Bills were not in cap hell. Cap hell is cutting starters to meet the cap. The Bills were $23m under the cap going into the 2017 offseason. That is right at league average and they had 39 guys under contract which is a little below league average but only just (it is right about 41). They also had the potential to save significant additional space by not picking up Tyrod Taylor's option. I love McDermott and like Beane but the cap hell narrative was partly them spinning it for their own benefit and partly them causing it by trading guys that left dead cap. The reason some folks think Whaley has defenders is because some of the things said about him.... like "no sniff of an NFL job" are verifiabley untrue. First off your information is untrue. He did not interview for Green Bay. He was rumored to interview for Cleveland but many have said that he was never seriously in the running. Sorry to me a “sniff” means that he was given serious consideration. I think it says a lot about a former GM who is still unemployed after 3 years. The ones seems to find work immediately. The Bills cap situation was far from great and this has been proven...again. He gave out contracts to players like Dareus and Clay which resulted in a ton of cap space and hurting the team down the line. Whaley was also the one who made the decision to let Gilmore walk, partly because the cap space wasn’t there. Oh and most teams with cap issues have to pay $30M for a QB. Buffalo never had that. He was a bad GM. I feel that his reputation is warranted and it straight up boggles my mind to see so many Whaley defenders here. I am dumbfounded. The team was a laughing stock under Whaley - so glad it’s better now. Edited April 8, 2020 by Phil The Thrill
GunnerBill Posted April 8, 2020 Posted April 8, 2020 1 minute ago, Phil The Thrill said: Thank you. It’s as simple as that. Of course, I’ll First off your information is untrue. He did not interview for Green Bay. He was rumored to interview for Cleveland but many have said that he was never seriously in the running. Sorry to me a “sniff” means that he was given serious consideration. I think it says a lot about a former GM who is still unemployed after 3 years. The ones seems to find work immediately. The Bills cap situation was far from great and this has been proven...again. He gave out contracts to players like Dareus and Clay which resulted in a ton of cap space and hurting the team down the line. Whaley was also the one who made the decision to let Gilmore walk, partly because the cap space wasn’t there. Oh and most teams with cap issues have to pay $30M for a QB. Buffalo never had that. He was a bad GM. I feel that his reputation is warranted and it straight up boggles my mind to see so many Whaley defenders here. I am dumbfounded So again you are simply wrong. He interviewed for the Packers GM job - per basically the most reliable writer on the Packers beat: https://eu.packersnews.com/story/sports/nfl/packers/2018/01/09/fourth-candidate-confirmed-packers-gm-search/1018451001/ Second lie - "he let Gilmore walk." Nah. Sorry. That was McDermott. Anyone still trying to argue that Doug Whaley had any control over the 2017 offseason is simply crazy. From the moment McDermott was hired Whaley was not even allowed to give press conferences and yet you think he was making free agency decisions? This is freaking mental. As for cap issues.... I never said their cap was great. I disputed "cap hell". This is easier if you don't try and change your position every time you are proved wrong. I hated the Clay contract - said it here the day he signed - you are preaching to the converted there... but regardless of a couple of poor contracts the Bills' cap situation was just worse than average in 2017. It was made worse by decisions McDermott and Beane made. Decisions I agreed with by the way. But decisions that were made fully in the knowledge that there could be short term pain for changing the culture. I am not arguing Whaley was a good GM. But you are pedalling lies. Proveable untruths. When you stop lying about Whaley I will stop correcting you.
njbuff Posted April 8, 2020 Posted April 8, 2020 13 minutes ago, Phil The Thrill said: Thank you. It’s as simple as that. Of course, the Whaley apologists will say Buddy made the pick, despite the fact Whaley said he was involved in the selection and seemed to verify it by drafting Sammy. First off your information is untrue. He did not interview for Green Bay. He was rumored to interview for Cleveland but many have said that he was never seriously in the running. Sorry to me a “sniff” means that he was given serious consideration. I think it says a lot about a former GM who is still unemployed after 3 years. The ones seems to find work immediately. The Bills cap situation was far from great and this has been proven...again. He gave out contracts to players like Dareus and Clay which resulted in a ton of cap space and hurting the team down the line. Whaley was also the one who made the decision to let Gilmore walk, partly because the cap space wasn’t there. Oh and most teams with cap issues have to pay $30M for a QB. Buffalo never had that. He was a bad GM. I feel that his reputation is warranted and it straight up boggles my mind to see so many Whaley defenders here. I am dumbfounded. The team was a laughing stock under Whaley - so glad it’s better now. I actually tried defending Manuel, but as it turned out, I was throwing darts at a target-less dartboard. 20 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: You said he hadn't got a sniff at another NFL job. That my friend, is definitively incorrect. He had a "sniff" at two GM jobs. I repeat that I don't think he was a good GM. I think it was time for him to go and of the questions the only one I'd disagree with is "cap hell". The Bills were not in cap hell. Cap hell is cutting starters to meet the cap. The Bills were $23m under the cap going into the 2017 offseason. That is right at league average and they had 39 guys under contract which is a little below league average but only just (it is right about 41). They also had the potential to save significant additional space by not picking up Tyrod Taylor's option. I love McDermott and like Beane but the cap hell narrative was partly them spinning it for their own benefit and partly them causing it by trading guys that left dead cap. The reason some folks think Whaley has defenders is because some of the things said about him.... like "no sniff of an NFL job" are verifiabley untrue. See if I had "blind love" for Doug Whaley I would point out that he did not in fact select EJ Manuel because the GM was Buddy Nix. But I am not a blind defender and the same as no human in their right mind can honestly argue Doug Whaley passed on Watson and Mahomes because McDermott ran that draft, no human in their right mind can honestly argue Doug Whaley wasn't an integral part in the drafting of EJ Manuel. My only blind loyalty is to the truth. I always remember when Whaley said that Manuel had "it". He sure did. ? But, I am no innocent bystander in the Manuel debate. I said give Manuel the benefit of the doubt and let him grow into the role of starting QB. How wrong was I? LOL
GunnerBill Posted April 8, 2020 Posted April 8, 2020 5 minutes ago, njbuff said: I always remember when Whaley said that Manuel had "it". He sure did. ? But, I am no innocent bystander in the Manuel debate. I said give Manuel the benefit of the doubt and let him grow into the role of starting QB. How wrong was I? LOL I don't defend Whaley on Manuel. I don't defend him on things he is culpable for. I just correct posters who post proveable untruths.
njbuff Posted April 8, 2020 Posted April 8, 2020 1 minute ago, GunnerBill said: I don't defend Whaley on Manuel. I don't defend him on things he is culpable for. I just correct posters who post proveable untruths. I wonder how many of us have egg on their face, LIKE ME, for actually showing patience with Manuel?
Phil The Thrill Posted April 8, 2020 Posted April 8, 2020 (edited) 17 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: So again you are simply wrong. He interviewed for the Packers GM job - per basically the most reliable writer on the Packers beat: https://eu.packersnews.com/story/sports/nfl/packers/2018/01/09/fourth-candidate-confirmed-packers-gm-search/1018451001/ Second lie - "he let Gilmore walk." Nah. Sorry. That was McDermott. Anyone still trying to argue that Doug Whaley had any control over the 2017 offseason is simply crazy. From the moment McDermott was hired Whaley was not even allowed to give press conferences and yet you think he was making free agency decisions? This is freaking mental. As for cap issues.... I never said their cap was great. I disputed "cap hell". This is easier if you don't try and change your position every time you are proved wrong. I hated the Clay contract - said it here the day he signed - you are preaching to the converted there... but regardless of a couple of poor contracts the Bills' cap situation was just worse than average in 2017. It was made worse by decisions McDermott and Beane made. Decisions I agreed with by the way. But decisions that were made fully in the knowledge that there could be short term pain for changing the culture. I am not arguing Whaley was a good GM. But you are pedalling lies. Proveable untruths. When you stop lying about Whaley I will stop correcting you. Please find me some proof that Gilmore was a McDermott call. Why wasn’t Gilmore resigned sometime during the 2016 season? I agreed with letting him go, but the same people who are condemning the Bills for this choice are the same saying how great Whaley was. Here’s where I slightly agree with you. I do think he walked into a situation of dysfunction in Buffalo. This was started by Ralph Wilson and continued through Russ Brandon. Yet when McDermott was here he put his foot down and ushered in some changes. Why didn’t Doug do this? Where was Doug’s “process?” I just don’t think he had the acumen or the ability to be a good GM. He just was not a good leader and he had no clue how to build an NFL long term. That’s a fact. Edited April 8, 2020 by Phil The Thrill
GunnerBill Posted April 8, 2020 Posted April 8, 2020 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Phil The Thrill said: Please find me some proof that Gilmore was a McDermott call. Why wasn’t Gilmore resigned sometime during the 2016 season? I agreed with letting me go, but the same people who are condemning the Bills for this choice are the same saying how great Whaley was. Here’s where I slightly agree with you. I do think he walked into a situation of dysfunction in Buffalo. This was started by Ralph Wilson and continued through Russ Brandon. Yet when McDermott was here he put his foot down and ushered in some changes. Why didn’t Doug do this? Where was Doug’s “process?” I just don’t think he had the acumen or the ability to be a good GM. He just was not a good leader and he had no clue how to build an NFL long term. Whaley was a bad GM and the blind loyalty here is laughable. You are agreeing with me on something I haven't even argued. Are you actually reading my posts? I am done here. It is like arguing with a wall. You want to believe the Gilmore call was Whaley's be my guest. It was McDermott's. I loved Gilmore. I understood the decision to let him walk. It was McDermott's decision. Edited April 8, 2020 by GunnerBill
Phil The Thrill Posted April 8, 2020 Posted April 8, 2020 4 minutes ago, njbuff said: I wonder how many of us have egg on their face, LIKE ME, for actually showing patience with Manuel? I think we all hoped he’d be a good QB but I’d be surprised if any of us would honestly put money on it. 1 minute ago, GunnerBill said: You are agreeing with me on something I haven't even argued. Are you actually reading my posts? I am done here. It is like arguing with a wall. You want to believe the Gilmore call was Whaley's be my guest. It was McDermott's. I loved Gilmore. I understood the decision to let him walk. It was McDermott's decision. Where’s your proof? Who’s peddling lies now?
GunnerBill Posted April 8, 2020 Posted April 8, 2020 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Phil The Thrill said: Where’s your proof? Who’s peddling lies now? That the GM did not do the post FA presser. He did not do the pre-draft presser. He did not do the post pick pressers during the draft. He was fired the day after the draft. If you are arguing that GM had any influence in that offseason you are absolutely deluded. McDermott said he believed in "one voice" until a new GM was hired. And then he let his GM speak. His previous GM had been castrated. I didn't disagree with the decision to castrate him but I acknowledge that is what happened. Edited April 8, 2020 by GunnerBill
Phil The Thrill Posted April 8, 2020 Posted April 8, 2020 Just now, GunnerBill said: That the GM did not do the post FA presser. He did not do the pre-draft presser. He did not do the post pick pressers during the draft. He was fired the day after the draft. If you are arguing that GM had any influence in that offseason you are absolutely deluded. Forget the offseason. Good players are Suzhou resigned before they hit the market. Whaley had an entire to get a deal done before he was fired. Why didn’t it happen? Either way....it a moot point. My main point is - I don’t get the fierce support for a GM that largely underachieved.
GunnerBill Posted April 8, 2020 Posted April 8, 2020 Just now, Phil The Thrill said: Forget the offseason. Good players are Suzhou resigned before they hit the market. Whaley had an entire to get a deal done before he was fired. Why didn’t it happen? Either way....it a moot point. My main point is - I don’t get the fierce support for a GM that largely underachieved. Well if you read my posts you would know I am not defending him. In fact you attributed and then agreed with an argument in his defence that I didn't make and that I don't even really agree with. All I am doing is correcting your inaccuracies. The moment you stop making inaccurate statements I will go away. I have said this to you already... but there is plenty to criticise Doug Whaley as GM for without making things up.
Phil The Thrill Posted April 8, 2020 Posted April 8, 2020 4 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: Well if you read my posts you would know I am not defending him. In fact you attributed and then agreed with an argument in his defence that I didn't make and that I don't even really agree with. All I am doing is correcting your inaccuracies. The moment you stop making inaccurate statements I will go away. I have said this to you already... but there is plenty to criticise Doug Whaley as GM for without making things up. fair enough... I just felt like you were really splitting hairs just to argue: Cap hell vs. Bad cap situation Not getting a whiff vs. Getting interviews Its all semantics
GunnerBill Posted April 8, 2020 Posted April 8, 2020 1 minute ago, Phil The Thrill said: fair enough... I just felt like you were really splitting hairs just to argue: Cap hell vs. Bad cap situation Not getting a whiff vs. Getting interviews Its all semantics And you were exaggerating because you let your feelings interfere with the facts. Whaley wasn't a good GM, but he did get two GM interviews after leaving the Bills, he didn't decide to let Gilmore walk and he did not leave the Bills in cap hell. He did play a significant role in drafting EJ Manuel, he did sign Charles Clay to one of the most ludicrous contracts I can remember, he did fall out with not one but two Head Coaches, he did spend 2 first round picks on a receiver who has underachieved and he did fail to draft a single pro bowler in (essentially) 4 drafts as GM (one as Assistant GM but basically in control in 2013 and then 2014-2016 as General Manager). See if you are accurate your criticisms carry more weight.
Recommended Posts