Hapless Bills Fan Posted July 8, 2021 Posted July 8, 2021 22 minutes ago, Billl said: It was a joke. No offense meant. I put Daniel Jones up there mostly as a joke myself - while he was noted coming out of college as having enough scrambling ability to move the chains, he certainly wasn't drafted as a dual-threat QB, but with Saquan Barkley on IR he was 2nd in yards had the most YPA, 6.5, on the G-men last year. Like I said "wasn't supposed to be that way!"
Hapless Bills Fan Posted July 8, 2021 Posted July 8, 2021 5 minutes ago, starrymessenger said: I’m not sure I would agree that Allen is the best rusher on the team, even if he has to date wound up being the most effective. For sure he’s a much better runner than Moss or Singletary are QBs though. Last season opened it for debate, but only because Allen used his field vision and ability to make guys miss in the cause of extending the play to pass. Last season, on the other hand, Singletary looked slow and hesitant and did not display good field vision, IMO - he earned his decrease from 5.1 to 4.4 ypa independent of OL problems. Let me put it to you this way - if you're a LB or safety between a runner and the open field, who would you rather have had coming at you last season - Allen, Moss, or Singletary? He can do better and I hope he will, but I think Moss's foot hampered him all season. Motor would dance around until the rest of the D caught him from behind while trying to evade. I don't think anyone in the league was afraid that Singletary or Moss would "Josh Norman" them a la Derrick Henry (or blow by them). Josh Allen, on the other hand, seems pretty widely agreed "you better have a plan to tackle him and bring the lumber" as Von Miller said, and you better have a good angle too because once he gets up to speed he's deceptively fast. 2 1
Buffalo716 Posted July 8, 2021 Posted July 8, 2021 2 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: Last season opened it for debate, but only because Allen used his field vision and ability to make guys miss in the cause of extending the play to pass. Last season, on the other hand, Singletary looked slow and hesitant and did not display good field vision, IMO - he earned his decrease from 5.1 to 4.4 ypa independent of OL problems. Let me put it to you this way - if you're a LB or safety between a runner and the open field, who would you rather have had coming at you last season - Allen, Moss, or Singletary? He can do better and I hope he will, but I think Moss's foot hampered him all season. Motor would dance around until the rest of the D caught him from behind while trying to evade. I don't think anyone in the league was afraid that Singletary or Moss would "Josh Norman" them a la Derrick Henry (or blow by them). Josh Allen, on the other hand, seems pretty widely agreed "you better have a plan to tackle him and bring the lumber" as Von Miller said, and you better have a good angle too because once he gets up to speed he's deceptively fast. I think Allen's a dangerous runner But I think people also think he's a little better than what he actually is... He doesn't have the center of gravity of an NFL running back.. he runs high and gets taken out at the knees way too easily When he sees man coverage and backs turn to him, he's super dangerous to take off for 10 to 20 yards.. and he does have some good agility and a stiff arm But he has the benefit of running from the QB spot , which is completely different and easier than running as a running back .. So he is a threat to run and he does look really good when he does it.. but he isn't built like an NFL running back.. So he might be our most talented rusher, because it's easier to run from the quarterback spot and he can get chunk yards.. but Its not like he's a good enough runner to play running back If I was a linebacker I would rather tackle Josh Allen then Zack Moss
starrymessenger Posted July 8, 2021 Posted July 8, 2021 2 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: Last season opened it for debate, but only because Allen used his field vision and ability to make guys miss in the cause of extending the play to pass. Last season, on the other hand, Singletary looked slow and hesitant and did not display good field vision, IMO - he earned his decrease from 5.1 to 4.4 ypa independent of OL problems. Let me put it to you this way - if you're a LB or safety between a runner and the open field, who would you rather have had coming at you last season - Allen, Moss, or Singletary? He can do better and I hope he will, but I think Moss's foot hampered him all season. Motor would dance around until the rest of the D caught him from behind while trying to evade. I don't think anyone in the league was afraid that Singletary or Moss would "Josh Norman" them a la Derrick Henry (or blow by them). Josh Allen, on the other hand, seems pretty widely agreed "you better have a plan to tackle him and bring the lumber" as Von Miller said, and you better have a good angle too because once he gets up to speed he's deceptively fast. Josh is big, fast and feisty. In the open field and with a head of steam I wouldn’t want to get in his way (not sure I’d want to get into Moss’s way either). My question for you, better expressed, was whether you think Allen would be more productive than Moss or Motor if he actually lined up as a running back, as they do. I’m not sure he would put up better numbers playing behind our line. Many of his open field opportunities come from essentially broken plays where the opposing defence was set up to stop the pass. The RBs don’t get those opportunities. I think Lamar would be a very good tailback but then I don’t consider him elite as a QB (though I’m not saying he’s not a QB).
Hapless Bills Fan Posted July 8, 2021 Posted July 8, 2021 10 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said: I think Allen's a dangerous runner But I think people also think he's a little better than what he actually is... He doesn't have the center of gravity of an NFL running back.. he runs high and gets taken out at the knees way too easily When he sees man coverage and backs turn to him, he's super dangerous to take off for 10 to 20 yards.. and he does have some good agility and a stiff arm But he has the benefit of running from the QB spot , which is completely different and easier than running as a running back .. So he is a threat to run and he does look really good when he does it.. but he isn't built like an NFL running back.. So he might be our most talented rusher, because it's easier to run from the quarterback spot and he can get chunk yards.. but Its not like he's a good enough runner to play running back If I was a linebacker I would rather tackle Josh Allen then Zack Moss Well, certainly as a QB it's his job to avoid contact - to get out of bounds or slide, not to run into the LB and take a couple guys with him (even though he's done that on occasion) So I take your point, and also the point that he doesn't have the COG or (for that matter) the fast acceleration of an RB. We may disagree a little bit on what he's like as a downfield runner. He isn't "Cheetah" Hill, but on the other hand, neither is anyone else in the Bills backfield....unless Breida regains his SF form, perhaps.
Buffalo716 Posted July 8, 2021 Posted July 8, 2021 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: Well, certainly as a QB it's his job to avoid contact - to get out of bounds or slide, not to run into the LB and take a couple guys with him (even though he's done that on occasion) So I take your point, and also the point that he doesn't have the COG or (for that matter) the fast acceleration of an RB. We may disagree a little bit on what he's like as a downfield runner. He isn't "Cheetah" Hill, but on the other hand, neither is anyone else in the Bills backfield....unless Breida regains his SF form, perhaps. I don't think we disagree how effective as a runner he is .. I think he's the second best running quarterback in the NFL And when he gets moving downhill he's fast and big He's just built for 5 to 7 carries game not 20.. because he has a lot of body exposed with how big is.. and he doesn't have the agility of a Lamar Jackson Edited July 8, 2021 by Buffalo716
Hapless Bills Fan Posted July 8, 2021 Posted July 8, 2021 11 minutes ago, starrymessenger said: Josh is big, fast and feisty. In the open field and with a head of steam I wouldn’t want to get in his way (not sure I’d want to get into Moss’s way either). My question for you, better expressed, was whether you think Allen would be more productive than Moss or Motor if he actually lined up as a running back, as they do. I’m not sure he would put up better numbers playing behind our line. Many of his open field opportunities come from essentially broken plays where the opposing defence was set up to stop the pass. The RBs don’t get those opportunities. I think Lamar would be a very good tailback but then I don’t consider him elite as a QB (though I’m not saying he’s not a QB). Oh, no - put that way, not at all. @Buffalo716 points are germaine that he's not built like a running back, and certainly wouldn't succeed behind our line - he needs time to accelerate. He would put up better numbers, though, if he were trying to develop his career more along a Newton/Jackson "dual threat" trajectory vs. using his legs primarily to extend plays. And more of his rush opportunities than you think may come from designed plays, some of which I wouldn't mind if Daboll put through the shredder. 7 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said: I don't think we disagree how effective as a runner he is .. I think he's the second best running quarterback in the NFL And when he gets moving downhill he's fast and big He's just built for 5 to 7 carries game not 20.. because he has a lot of body exposed with how big is.. and he doesn't have the agility of a Lamar Jackson Fair on that last Let's hope Singletary improves this season and Moss returns from injury better and stronger. Addendum: Just looked it up and Josh was 7.4, 6.8, 6.4 A/G his 3 years. Given what you say, would you like to see him back off his attempts? 1
The_Ripster Posted July 8, 2021 Posted July 8, 2021 Is it safe to say this season is a make or break year for the current backfield? Assuming it is Singletary, Moss + Breida, would it be a failure if none of them come close to cracking 1000 yards?
Buffalo716 Posted July 8, 2021 Posted July 8, 2021 23 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: Oh, no - put that way, not at all. @Buffalo716 points are germaine that he's not built like a running back, and certainly wouldn't succeed behind our line - he needs time to accelerate. He would put up better numbers, though, if he were trying to develop his career more along a Newton/Jackson "dual threat" trajectory vs. using his legs primarily to extend plays. And more of his rush opportunities than you think may come from designed plays, some of which I wouldn't mind if Daboll put through the shredder. Fair on that last Let's hope Singletary improves this season and Moss returns from injury better and stronger. Addendum: Just looked it up and Josh was 7.4, 6.8, 6.4 A/G his 3 years. Given what you say, would you like to see him back off his attempts? That's like the perfect number. Anything more than five but probably under 10 He needs to keep the defense honest, without making it predictable... Seven rushing attempts a game is the perfect number to keep the ends containing and not rushing upfield.. so Josh gets a cleaner pocket and more time, just based on the threat to rush 2
njbuff Posted July 8, 2021 Posted July 8, 2021 I say Moss or A. Williams can emerge as a real threat in this offense, with Breida providing a speed element off the bench. Singletary can stop on a dime, which can make him a good back, but he is simply too small and too slow to ever be consistent.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted July 8, 2021 Posted July 8, 2021 2 hours ago, The_Ripster said: Is it safe to say this season is a make or break year for the current backfield? Assuming it is Singletary, Moss + Breida, would it be a failure if none of them come close to cracking 1000 yards? So let's spitball numbers a bit on this. Last season, the #1 rushing offense (Ravens) had >3000 yds. #2 (Titans) was 2700. OK, we're a passing offense, that's not where we wanna be. Last season, Bills were bottom-3rd of the league (20th) with 1723 rush yards, and only one of the teams below us (Houston) had a QB who generated significant rushing yards. If we subtract out Allen's 421 rush yards, that would be even worse: 1302 yds which would put us....2nd to last in the league for rush yards (cue sad trombone noise) (above only Houston if you take out Deshaun Watson's rushes) So where do we want to be? I would say we want to improve to above average: ~2000 yds maybe? which would put us 11th in the league. If we assume that Allen gets comparable rushing yards, that would say we need ~1500 yds from our backs. Last season we had 300 attempts from our backs. With that # of attempts that would be 5 ypa from our backs, which seems unrealistic. But 2019 Singletary had 5.1 ypa, so maybe it's not too unrealistic. Spitball conclusion: I don't think it would be a failure if none of the backs crack 1000 yds, but if it's (say) a 60/40 split, one of them better come pretty close. 1
Boxcar Posted July 8, 2021 Posted July 8, 2021 Can anyone explain to me why CEH is so highly regarded? We are crapping on Singletary for having a bad year, and in that bad year he had the same ypc as CEH, around the same number of receptions and slightly less reception yards yet CEH ranks 17 and Singletary 31. I don't get it. People seem to act like he's a lot better than he actually is.
Augie Posted July 8, 2021 Posted July 8, 2021 2 hours ago, The_Ripster said: Is it safe to say this season is a make or break year for the current backfield? Assuming it is Singletary, Moss + Breida, would it be a failure if none of them come close to cracking 1000 yards? I think it as much of a statement on the OLine as it is on the RB’s I think they would be fine if they had anywhere to run and hope that improves next season. Singletary has a career 4.8 ypc, if I recall. He won’t rip off that 90 yard TD, but he can keep the chains moving given somewhere to run, IMO. 1
Hapless Bills Fan Posted July 8, 2021 Posted July 8, 2021 21 minutes ago, Boxcar said: Can anyone explain to me why CEH is so highly regarded? We are crapping on Singletary for having a bad year, and in that bad year he had the same ypc as CEH, around the same number of receptions and slightly less reception yards yet CEH ranks 17 and Singletary 31. I don't get it. People seem to act like he's a lot better than he actually is. Interesting point. I was surprised when I looked at their stats. I think - and I could be wrong - that CEH may be more "steady Eddie" where he gained yardage consistently when they needed it, while our backs had more negative plays (which are sometimes their fault, and often not) Where's @Zerovoltz or @Billl? Maybe they have some insight here.
The_Ripster Posted July 9, 2021 Posted July 9, 2021 1 hour ago, Augie said: I think it as much of a statement on the OLine as it is on the RB’s I think they would be fine if they had anywhere to run and hope that improves next season. Singletary has a career 4.8 ypc, if I recall. He won’t rip off that 90 yard TD, but he can keep the chains moving given somewhere to run, IMO. Considering the amount of new faces constantly improving the OLine at a certain point the blame has to get shifted towards the backfield. Like @Hapless Bills Fan "Bills were bottom-3rd of the league (20th) with 1723 rush yards, and If we subtract out Allen's 421 rush yards, that would be even worse: 1302 yds which would put us....2nd to last in the league for rush yards." Are you suggesting our OLine is 2nd to last in the league? Allen is gonna eat regardless IMO, he's just that good. I think it would be disappointing if the RB's can't generate 1500+ yards between the 3 of them.
Augie Posted July 9, 2021 Posted July 9, 2021 2 minutes ago, The_Ripster said: Considering the amount of new faces constantly improving the OLine at a certain point the blame has to get shifted towards the backfield. Like @Hapless Bills Fan "Bills were bottom-3rd of the league (20th) with 1723 rush yards, and If we subtract out Allen's 421 rush yards, that would be even worse: 1302 yds which would put us....2nd to last in the league for rush yards." Are you suggesting our OLine is 2nd to last in the league? Allen is gonna eat regardless IMO, he's just that good. I think it would be disappointing if the RB's can't generate 1500+ yards between the 3 of them. I watched the games, and I’m suggesting we are a pass heavy offense with pretty good pass pro, and pretty poor run blocking. Stats can be twisted all kinds of ways, but our backs were not entirely to blame for the lack of a run game last year. Even the coaches admitted they would have done better if they had focused on it more in practice. As for new faces improving the OLine, it looks very possible we will start almost the same line as last year. We drafted a couple guys who should be good rebounders, but it’s not like we turned the line over. I hope between coaching, scheme and emphasis we can improve. It’s NOT all just about the backs.
The_Ripster Posted July 9, 2021 Posted July 9, 2021 3 minutes ago, Augie said: I watched the games, and I’m suggesting we are a pass heavy offense with pretty good pass pro, and pretty poor run blocking. Stats can be twisted all kinds of ways, but our backs were not entirely to blame for the lack of a run game last year. Even the coaches admitted they would have done better if they had focused on it more in practice. As for new faces improving the OLine, it looks very possible we will start almost the same line as last year. We drafted a couple guys who should be good rebounders, but it’s not like we turned the line over. I hope between coaching, scheme and emphasis we can improve. It’s NOT all just about the backs. I'm sorry, I'm not sure what your point is? We have a good OLine that is improving every year, BUT it is still 2nd last in the league in the run game? Not much stat twisting going on here. Those are straight up report card marks.
ThurmanThomasEnglishMuffin Posted July 9, 2021 Posted July 9, 2021 7 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: Last season opened it for debate, but only because Allen used his field vision and ability to make guys miss in the cause of extending the play to pass. Last season, on the other hand, Singletary looked slow and hesitant and did not display good field vision, IMO - he earned his decrease from 5.1 to 4.4 ypa independent of OL problems. Let me put it to you this way - if you're a LB or safety between a runner and the open field, who would you rather have had coming at you last season - Allen, Moss, or Singletary? He can do better and I hope he will, but I think Moss's foot hampered him all season. Motor would dance around until the rest of the D caught him from behind while trying to evade. I don't think anyone in the league was afraid that Singletary or Moss would "Josh Norman" them a la Derrick Henry (or blow by them). Josh Allen, on the other hand, seems pretty widely agreed "you better have a plan to tackle him and bring the lumber" as Von Miller said, and you better have a good angle too because once he gets up to speed he's deceptively fast. Hey Hap, I think Singletary is not a good zone runner. The Bills went mostly to zone blocking around game 6. This hurt Spain and Singletary but helped Morse, Moss, D. Williams and the backup OGs. It was a calculated risk. Notice Spain got shipped off because he was not happy about the change, and Singletary struggled. Moss excelled and the pass protect held up. Prior to the change to zone blocking Moss was averaging 1.8 YPC. The thing is he was the best pass blocking back on the roster, so Buffalo needed to find a way to get him in the game and be effective as a runner and blocker IMO. The one RB the Bills brought in is Breida who is a one cut zone runner. He will do well if the Bills keep a zone scheme. I am disappointed the Bills passed on Wyatt Davis and Creed Humphrey multiple times.... I hope Gregory and Basham work out. I am hopeful for Lamp. I think he is a day 1 starter, he is a solid zone blocker. IOL was a clear need and I feel like they keep botching the OL. (trade Teller, cut Spain, keep Ford, pass on Davis and Humphrey, draft Brown and Doyle) Beane is good at a lot of things, but management of OL and DL is questionable at best. 10 minutes ago, Augie said: I watched the games, and I’m suggesting we are a pass heavy offense with pretty good pass pro, and pretty poor run blocking. Stats can be twisted all kinds of ways, but our backs were not entirely to blame for the lack of a run game last year. Even the coaches admitted they would have done better if they had focused on it more in practice. As for new faces improving the OLine, it looks very possible we will start almost the same line as last year. We drafted a couple guys who should be good rebounders, but it’s not like we turned the line over. I hope between coaching, scheme and emphasis we can improve. It’s NOT all just about the backs. Hey Augie, The eye does not lie. Singletary struggled in a zone scheme. Moss excelled. Breida is a one cut zone runner. It is a good fit. Still needed a piece or two IOL though and Buffalo chose two project OTs...
Augie Posted July 9, 2021 Posted July 9, 2021 (edited) 11 minutes ago, ThurmanThomasEnglishMuffin said: Hey Augie, The eye does not lie. Singletary struggled in a zone scheme. Moss excelled. Breida is a one cut zone runner. It is a good fit. Still needed a piece or two IOL though and Buffalo chose two project OTs... Hence the comment that between coaching, scheme and emphasis this is not all on the RB’s. Singletary has a two year average of 4.8 YPC. That is NOT the mark of a guy who can’t play in the NFL. It is more likely a guy who isn’t being used properly behind a line that didn’t exactly make things easy for Moss, either. Moss excelled in pass pro, once again going to the teams emphasis. To say Singletary struggled in the zone scheme and Moss excelled, while Singletary had a a slightly better YPC makes me wonder how you arrived at that point? Your eye just might have lied. . Edited July 9, 2021 by Augie
ThurmanThomasEnglishMuffin Posted July 9, 2021 Posted July 9, 2021 (edited) 3 hours ago, Augie said: Hence the comment that between coaching, scheme and emphasis this is not all on the RB’s. Singletary has a two year average of 4.8 YPC. That is NOT the mark of a guy who can’t play in the NFL. It is more likely a guy who isn’t being used properly behind a line that didn’t exactly make things easy for Moss, either. Moss excelled in pass pro, once again going to the teams emphasis. To say Singletary struggled in the zone scheme and Moss excelled, while Singletary had a a slightly better YPC makes me wonder how you arrived at that point? Your eye just might have lied. . Easy Augie. I was mostly agreeing with you. The OL and run blocking scheme is the biggest hurdle the Offense has. IOL should have been a higher draft priority. Do we not agree? Bills passed on Wyatt Davis (OG) 2x, Creed Humphrey (C) 2x and Ben Cleveland (OG) x3. All safe bets to be NFL starters for a decade. KC and Baltimore loved our picks and got richer for them. I'm not convinced blocking has been figured out, and they may have passed on some very good OL this draft because of it. Around week 5 Buffalo went from Power/Man to Zone blocking. It definitely helped Moss. Spain was cut..... I was right about Moss here are the game logs: Considering Weeks 1-5 as power blocking (TN game) vs zone blocking (KC and after) Moss: Week 1-5 C YDS AVG TD 17 48 2.8 0 Week 6-16 95 433 4.6 4 Clearly better, eyes don't lie Augie. Almost double the AVG Per Carry. That is what I saw and the stats prove it. 4.6 > 2.8 and yes I SAW it. Was easy to see. I was wrong about Singletary though. Singletary: Week 1-5 C YDS AVG TD 61 238 3.9 1 Week 6-16 95 449 4.7 1 4.7 > 3.9. Clearly zone blocking helped. The move to zone blocking helped both backs. The move seems justified even though Buffalo lost a good OG (Spain) This created a balanced time share between Moss and Singletary. 1:4 vs 1:1 Moss was rated as one of the best blocking RBs in the NFL by multiple sources. In a passing scheme you go with the better blocker who has a similar YPC. Breida is a home run threat in a zone scheme. Moss is proving to be a blocking beast with a better nose for the end zone. Singletary is still the odd man out, and IOL should have been addressed. Hoping for Lamp to look good at LG. I would feel better with Humphrey as OC2, and Davis or Cleveland at OG. But what do I know? I thought Teller was a beast here. Edited July 9, 2021 by ThurmanThomasEnglishMuffin 2
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