There should be a national dialogue in getting back to work

[dubs]

9 hours ago, Buffalo_Gal said:

 

imagine the (pardon the pun) god complex that a governor must suffer from to think that he/she can ban religious gatherings in the United States.  
 

I’d love to see the major religions simultaneously gather in Millennium Park and have a huge mass at the same time. 

[Nanker]

10 hours ago, plenzmd1 said:

Again, for Gods sake do what you alwaysbitchh about, read thje source documents @3rdnlng posted, or is that only for whenpeoplee dont agree with you.

 

We have one primary date in VA, it is open, Republicans choose not to have any candidate on the ballot due to "overwhelmeing support of President Trump"..from your own link BTW. The link is dated today. does not mean the news is from today..and i know you understand this

 

https://wtop.com/virginia/2020/03/virginia-2020-presidential-primary-voting-guide-everything-you-need-to-know/

 

 

 

 

 

 

Feeling hungry?
 

 

[shoshin]

1 hour ago, dubs said:

imagine the (pardon the pun) god complex that a governor must suffer from to think that he/she can ban religious gatherings in the United States.  
 

I’d love to see the major religions simultaneously gather in Millennium Park and have a huge mass at the same time. 

He didn’t ban church gatherings. He’s banned all gatherings over 50, including the pagan animal sacrifice circle and atheist superiority complex group meeting. If you want to make this about how his rules are too Draconian, that makes sense. But don’t make it into something it’s not. He’s not targeted churches. 

Edited May 7, 2020 by shoshin

[B-Man]

 

 

 

 

 

 

ROBIN HANSON: Why Openers Are Winning.

Three main relevant groups have vied lately to influence pandemic policy: public, elites, and experts. Initially, public health experts dominated, even when they screwed up. But then they seemed to publicly assume that it was too late to contain Covid19, and the only viable option was “flattening the curve” to get herd immunity. At that point, elite opinion worldwide objected loudly, and insisted that containment be the official policy.

 

Experts and the public demurred, and elites got their way. Everywhere in the world, all at once, strong lockdown polices began, and containment became the official goal. But elites did not insist on any particular standard containment policy. Such as, for example, the packages of polices that seem to have worked initially in Wuhan or South Korea. Instead elites seemed satisfied to let the politicians and experts in each jurisdiction craft their own policy packages, as long as they seemed “strong”, involving much public sacrifice. And they allowed official public messages suggesting that relatively short durations would be sufficient.

 

A few months later, those duration periods are expiring. And in the different jurisdictions, the diverse policies now sit next to quite diverse outcomes. In some places, infections are low or declining, while in others they are flat or increasing. The public is feeling the accumulated pain, and itching to break out. If these flat or increasing trends continue, containment will fail, and lockdown harms will soon exceed plausible future gains from preventing medical system overload.

 

Elites are now loudly and consistently saying that this is not time to open; we must stay closed and try harder to contain. When confronted with the discouraging recent trends, elites respond with a blizzard of explanations for local failures, and point to a cacophony of prophets with plans and white papers declaring obvious solutions.

 

But, and this is the key point, they mostly point to different explanations and solutions. . . .

 

Winning at politics requires more than just prestige, good ideas, and passion. It also requires compromise, to produce sufficient unity. At this game, elites are now failing, while the public is not.

 

 

 

Elites today are too arrogant and entitled to compromise with those they see as beneath them.

 

 

 

 

.

 

Edited May 7, 2020 by B-Man

[3rdnlng]

https://www.newsbreak.com/news/0Oyev6Kl/maine-church-sues-over-discriminatory-orders

 

Calvary Chapel of Bangor has filed a federal lawsuit against Maine Gov. Janet Mills for targeting churches and prohibiting in-person and drive-in-stay-in-your-car worship services with a criminal penalty of up to six months in jail and a $1,000 fine for violating her executive orders. The federal lawsuit requests an emergency order against the unconstitutional orders.

 

[dubs]

23 minutes ago, shoshin said:

He didn’t ban church gatherings. He’s banned all gatherings over 50, including the pagan animal sacrifice circle and atheist superiority complex group meeting. If you want to make this about how his rules are too Draconian, that makes sense. But don’t make it into something it’s not. He’s not targeted churches. 

 

When you ban all gatherings of more than 50, are you not violating Article III of the Bill of Rights?

 

Article III: "...make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, ..... or the right of people peaceably to assemble..."

 

I am not even religious, just saying that a Governor (IMO) doesn't have the right to just ban things that are guaranteed in the Constitution, no matter what the situation.

 

[shoshin]

26 minutes ago, dubs said:

 

When you ban all gatherings of more than 50, are you not violating Article III of the Bill of Rights?

 

Article III: "...make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, ..... or the right of people peaceably to assemble..."

 

I am not even religious, just saying that a Governor (IMO) doesn't have the right to just ban things that are guaranteed in the Constitution, no matter what the situation.

 

 

We have discussed this before. All the lockdowns infringe the right to assemble. The rights in the bill of rights often conflict with one another. The often quoted example being that free speech doesn't mean you can yell "fire" in a crowded movie theater. There are many other examples as well, including many rights that get infringed in times of national emergency. 

 

Moving from zero gatherings to gatherings of 50 is a step back from infringing people's right to assemble. 

 

I do not agree with his plan or staging. It's completely absurd to base the right to assemble in larger numbers on a vaccine, though I appreciate that his criteria has some leeway on the right to assemble. 

Edited May 7, 2020 by shoshin

[dubs]

6 minutes ago, shoshin said:

 

We have discussed this before. All the lockdowns infringe the right to assemble. The rights in the bill of rights often conflict with one another. The often quoted example being that free speech doesn't mean you can yell "fire" in a crowded movie theater. There are many other examples as well, including many rights that get infringed in times of national emergency. 

 

Moving from zero gatherings to gatherings of 50 is a step back from infringing people's right to assemble. 

 

I do not agree with his plan or staging. It's completely absurd to base the right to assemble in larger numbers on a vaccine, though I appreciate that his criteria has some leeway on the right to assemble. 

 

I would say this, and I sincerely appreciate your perspective, the longer this has gone on and the more we are learning, the more confident I am in the fact that we have to, as a people, be extraordinarily vigilant in protecting our rights as citizens.  No government entity should be able to just suspend rights, even in an outbreak situation.

 

 

[shoshin]

3 minutes ago, dubs said:

 

I would say this, and I sincerely appreciate your perspective, the longer this has gone on and the more we are learning, the more confident I am in the fact that we have to, as a people, be extraordinarily vigilant in protecting our rights as citizens.  No government entity should be able to just suspend rights, even in an outbreak situation.

 

 

I agree, but I think the people rattling the chains right now are right to rattle but doing so at the expense of not listening to the other side of this. Every state is reopening, and believe me when I tell you that I HATE/LOATHE my state's reopening criteria, but it's coming. Every governor sees what needs to be done--they just are afraid to misstep. Here in PA, our hospitals took an initial wave that was a little scary then dropped off. Gov. Wolf wants to be careful not to test that capacity again. I think he's being way too careful and I could argue for hours about how crappy his criteria are but I get it. He's trying to make sure we stay closed long enough that we NEVER have to step backwards into closure again. 

 

In GA, they opened spas and barbers first. That IMO is too far the other direction. 

 

I continue to really like the Trump/CDC reopening guidelines. They always made the most sense and I wish every state was following them. So far it seems only Cuomo is giving them serious weight. 

[B-Man]

It could be more than a year before churches are allowed to resume their in-person gatherings, according to Democratic Illinois Gov. J.B. Pritzker.

 

Pritzker announced a five-phase plan to reopen Illinois that gives guidance to schools, businesses, churches, and other religious centers about when they will be allowed to reopen. In phase three, gatherings of up to 10 people will be allowed. In phase four, gatherings of up to 50 people will be allowed. Gatherings of more than 50 people will not be allowed until phase five.

 

During a press conference on Wednesday, Pritzker confirmed that churches will be held to the same standards and will not be allowed to hold in-person services of more than 50 people until phase five, even if it takes more than a year to get to that position.

 

"You know that in phase three, there can be gatherings, church gatherings, of 10 or fewer. In phase four, 50 or fewer. So that's the guidance that's been given to me," Pritzker said. "I'm not the one providing that guidance. It really is what the scientists and epidemiologists are recommending."

 

Pritzker said the state entered phase two on Friday and will enter phase three on May 29 at the earliest. Face masks will be recommended in public until phase five is reached. Schools, restaurants, and bars will not reopen until phase four.

 

Phase five cannot begin until a vaccine is widely available or a highly effective therapeutic drug is released. Dr. Anthony Fauci, the director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, has said a vaccine is 12 to 18 months away from being available to the public.

 

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/illinois-governor-says-churches-may-not-reopen-for-a-year-or-more-because-of-coronavirus

 

 

 

Alternate headline: In the Name of Public Safety, Illinois Commits Suicide.

 

 

 

.

 

 

 

[shoshin]

1 minute ago, B-Man said:

It could be more than a year before churches are allowed to resume their in-person gatherings, according to Democratic Illinois Gov. J.B. Pritzker.

 

Pritzker announced a five-phase plan to reopen Illinois that gives guidance to schools, businesses, churches, and other religious centers about when they will be allowed to reopen. In phase three, gatherings of up to 10 people will be allowed. In phase four, gatherings of up to 50 people will be allowed. Gatherings of more than 50 people will not be allowed until phase five.

 

During a press conference on Wednesday, Pritzker confirmed that churches will be held to the same standards and will not be allowed to hold in-person services of more than 50 people until phase five, even if it takes more than a year to get to that position.

 

"You know that in phase three, there can be gatherings, church gatherings, of 10 or fewer. In phase four, 50 or fewer. So that's the guidance that's been given to me," Pritzker said. "I'm not the one providing that guidance. It really is what the scientists and epidemiologists are recommending."

 

Pritzker said the state entered phase two on Friday and will enter phase three on May 29 at the earliest. Face masks will be recommended in public until phase five is reached. Schools, restaurants, and bars will not reopen until phase four.

 

Phase five cannot begin until a vaccine is widely available or a highly effective therapeutic drug is released. Dr. Anthony Fauci, the director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, has said a vaccine is 12 to 18 months away from being available to the public.

 

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/illinois-governor-says-churches-may-not-reopen-for-a-year-or-more-because-of-coronavirus

 

 

 

Alternate headline: In the Name of Public Safety, Illinois Commits Suicide.

 

 

 

A nationally-led response would have stupid governors like IL and GA following the CDC guidelines. Instead will get the pee-in-the-pool scenarios. 

[B-Man]

Sanctuary Phil Sees His Shadow, 30 More Days of Lock Down in Jersey; No Work, No Jobs, No Relief

TRENTON, NJ – Governor Phil Murphy today apparently saw his shadow today, which means the New Jersey COVID-19 lockdown will continue for at least another 30 days with no clear plan for residents or small business owners who will remain out of work during that time.

 

“I’m signing an EO to extend our public health emergency by 30 days,” Murphy said today.  “To be clear: this does not mean we’re seeing anything in the data which would pause our path forward. These declarations, unless extended, expire after 30 days. We’re still in a public health emergency.  If this extension signals one thing, it is this – we can’t give up one bit on the one thing that we know is working in this fight: social distancing. Remember, in the absence of a vaccine, or even proven therapeutics for #COVID19, our only cure is social distancing.”

 

 

So that means, for many, 30 more days without a paycheck, 30 more days without unemployment.  For businesses, it means 30 more days without cashflow and 30 more days to pretend they might see some of the economic stimulus money before the end of 2020.

“This will be disastrous for every small business in our State. We must allow for safely reopening segments of our economy. Yes, this virus is serious. Yes, people have gotten very ill and some have died including people I know personally. Unfortunately a large majority of those who have died in Bergen County were our most vulnerable residents in our Veterans homes and Long Term Care Facilities,” said New Jersey Assemblywoman Holly Schepisi.

 

 

http://shorenewsnetwork.com/2020/05/06/pandemic-phil-sees-his-shadow-30-more-days-of-lock-down-in-jersey-no-work-no-jobs-no-relief/?fbclid=IwAR0ur3YYooYAVWz02ozfn5RH51464GsK5D8pgWYOojJQlBPbLTCtHd1qla0

[shoshin]

I know little about Slavitt except for his former title but he also agrees that states should be following the really good Trump/CDC guidelines. 

 

It's a tragedy that Trump is letting all these governors slide on this. And you can say "federalism" all you want and that's fine, but even the most ardent federalist knows that Trump knows how to use his bully pulpit and could do a lot of good bashing governors who don't follow his guidelines. A lot of good. 

 

 

Edited May 7, 2020 by shoshin

[Tiberius]

“It’s not a question of do we reopen. It’s a question of how we reopen,” said New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo (D) at his news conference on Wednesday. “Our position in New York is the answer to the question, how do we reopen, is by following facts and data as opposed to emotion and politics. Right?” He added, “You can calibrate by the number of hospitalizations, the infection rate, the number of deaths, the percentage of hospital capacity, the percentage that you’re finding on antibody tests, the percentage of finding on diagnostic tests, positive, negative. You’re collecting tracing data, make your decisions based on the information and the data.” He said the proof is in the numbers: New York’s cases and deaths are declining as the rest of the country’s increases.

[shoshin]

11 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

“It’s not a question of do we reopen. It’s a question of how we reopen,” said New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo (D) at his news conference on Wednesday. “Our position in New York is the answer to the question, how do we reopen, is by following facts and data as opposed to emotion and politics. Right?” He added, “You can calibrate by the number of hospitalizations, the infection rate, the number of deaths, the percentage of hospital capacity, the percentage that you’re finding on antibody tests, the percentage of finding on diagnostic tests, positive, negative. You’re collecting tracing data, make your decisions based on the information and the data.” He said the proof is in the numbers: New York’s cases and deaths are declining as the rest of the country’s increases.

Cuomo is Committed to following the Trump/ CDC guidelines, the following of which is sure to work. It is set up to not fail. You can go backwards if people break the recommendations but otherwise it works. 

[3rdnlng]

9 minutes ago, shoshin said:

I know little about Slavitt except for his former title but he also agrees that states should be following the really good Trump/CDC guidelines. 

 

It's a tragedy that Trump is letting all these governors slide on this. And you can say "federalism" all you want and that's fine, but even the most ardent federalist knows that Trump knows how to use his bully pulpit and could do a lot of good bashing governors who don't follow his guidelines. A lot of good. 

 

 

"Federalism" did not just come out of left field. "Federalism" is a principle practiced by our country for centuries. Simply put, it's based on bringing the decision making down to the lowest level that still works. Each of our states are different and thus need to be governed differently. The federal government cannot be the entity to determine how those states are governed because they cannot know the peculiarities of each state. With that said, the federal guidelines are not such that need to be strictly followed in all instances. Governors need the leeway to be flexible in adhering to the guidelines in their own states and even in varied areas of their states. Trump can still cajole or use his bully pulpit but as I see it only as it pertains to rules that differ among neighboring states. He can also give rather strong suggestions as he did with the governor in Georgia but he can't force them to follow his guidelines*. 

 

*subject to emergency powers interpretation.  

[shoshin]

5 minutes ago, 3rdnlng said:

"Federalism" did not just come out of left field. "Federalism" is a principle practiced by our country for centuries. Simply put, it's based on bringing the decision making down to the lowest level that still works. Each of our states are different and thus need to be governed differently. The federal government cannot be the entity to determine how those states are governed because they cannot know the peculiarities of each state. With that said, the federal guidelines are not such that need to be strictly followed in all instances. Governors need the leeway to be flexible in adhering to the guidelines in their own states and even in varied areas of their states. Trump can still cajole or use his bully pulpit but as I see it only as it pertains to rules that differ among neighboring states. He can also give rather strong suggestions as he did with the governor in Georgia but he can't force them to follow his guidelines*. 

 

*subject to emergency powers interpretation.  

 

The states under your scenario are free to not follow the CDC guidelines, as it seems at least 49 are currently doing, but it's absurd to think the governor of GA getting a little scolding will do the right thing, or the IL/MI governors at the other extreme, without more action from Trump. So you understand, I think the issue of following those guidelines will be a bigger problem from the cautious states than the aggressive ones in the long run, but the patchwork approach could create a clusterF.

 

You will not convince me that the GA Dept of Public Health can do better than the CDC. The CDC guidelines are open to plenty of interpretation that can be enacted at a state level.  Dicker those details. Trump can beat the ***** out of them to at least follow the guidelines. 

 

You could have a debate about whether federalism is alive. It is, but only when it's convenient for the person arguing their current perspective. The commerce clause can be and is invoked all the time to override the 10th amendment. 

Edited May 7, 2020 by shoshin

[Buffalo_Gal]

19 minutes ago, shoshin said:

Cuomo is Committed to following the Trump/ CDC guidelines, the following of which is sure to work. It is set up to not fail. You can go backwards if people break the recommendations but otherwise it works. 

Cuomo should be opening some counties soon. He did that to a lesser extent with elective surgeries (all the counties except the ones with major cities could have elective surgeries).  This is a good map, although I am not sure about any of the WNY counties (other than Erie) having any type of problem? Maybe lack of hospital beds?
 

[3rdnlng]

4 minutes ago, shoshin said:

 

The states under your scenario are free to not follow the CDC guidelines, as it seems at least 49 are currently doing, but it's absurd to think the governor of GA getting a little scolding will do the right thing, or the IL/MI governors at the other extreme, without more action from Trump. So you understand, I think the issue of following those guidelines will be a bigger problem from the cautious states than the aggressive ones in the long run, but the patchwork approach could create a clusterF.

 

You will not convince me that the GA Dept of Public Health can do better than the CDC. The CDC guidelines are open to plenty of interpretation that can be enacted at a state level.  Dicker those details. Trump can beat the ***** out of them to at least follow the guidelines. 

 

You could have a debate about whether federalism is alive. It is, but only when it's convenient for the person arguing their current perspective. The commerce clause can be and is invoked all the time to override the 10th amendment. 

How are we in disagreement? 

[B-Man]

 

California Sheriff Defies Gavin Newsom: I Refuse to Make Criminals out of Business Owners and Moms

Greg Abbott Eliminates Jail for Texas Business Owners Violating Lockdown Orders