Josh Allen "Prove it" Season In Year 3

[Shaw66]

1 hour ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

We see the Allen that handled the Cowboys on Thanksgiving more often? I feel much better. 

 

We see Josh Allen against the Titans, where the Bills have to hang on for dear life more often? I'm looking for playmakers, elsewhere on the offense and at QB. 

You know what's always bothered me about the Cowboys game?  They seem to run a simple, passive defense.  That game looked like a preseason game to me.  Not like the Pats or the Ravens.

[Lieutenant Aldo Raine]

1 minute ago, FireChans said:

You can play this silly game with everyone. 

 

“Josh Rosen inexplicably fell from being possible #1 overall to the 4th QB off the board. That’s his fuel.” 

 

“Lamar Jackson was a Heisman-Winning QB who was asked to change position, drafted after college QB’s who didn’t accomplish half of what he did”

 

Thanks for proving my point!  

[Lieutenant Aldo Raine]

4 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I believe in character and I believe in motivation. I don't believe I have to know Josh Allen's story to know he is motivated. Nor do I believe that if Allen had Quarterbacked Alabama he would be any less motivated. It is the value of the story I am sceptical of. Not the value of character. 

 

Like I said, people have different motivations and are derived from different situations.  You're not interested in it, therefore you think it's baloney.  That's your call.

[Billl]

1 hour ago, Bangarang said:

What does my post count have to do with anything? 
 

I don’t hide from the fact that I didn’t like Allen coming out of college. I wanted Rosen. Allen has exceeded my expectations despite starting sooner than I would have expected. It’s even more impressive when you factor in how little he’s had to work with (until now).

 

Saying my mind has been made up in regards to Allen is wrong. Stop pushing some fake narrative. 

Just admit it.  You want the QB of your favorite football team to fail despite having a Super Bowl contender level roster.  It’s obvious.

[Straight Hucklebuck]

The truth is Bills fans love the underdog, Rudy Ruettiger, win one for the Gipper, story.

 

Players like Fred Jackson, Kyle Williams, Doug Flutie, Steve Tasker epitomize the Bills franchise.

 

So with Allen there is an attachment to the overlooked prospect, that became a diamond in the rough, because that symbolizes the City of Buffalo.

 

I keep harping on it, but the same things were said about Trent, Fitzpatrick and Tyrod. Nobody gave them their “shot”.

 

Allen is right in the middle of his shot now. 
 

Become a superstar, be a Top 5 QB, and I wouldn’t care if it wasn’t blue collar enough. 
 

Edited April 15, 2020 by Straight Hucklebuck

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

The truth is Bills fans love the underdog, Rudy Ruettiger, win one for the Gipper, story.

 

Players like Fred Jackson, Kyle Williams, Doug Flutie, Steve Tasker epitomize the Bills franchise.

 

So with Allen there is an attachment to overlooked prospect, that became a diamond in the rough.

 

I keep harping on it, but the same things were said about Trent, Fitzpatrick and Tyrod. Nobody gave them their “shot”.

 

Allen is right in the middle of his shot now. 
 

Become a superstar, be a Top 5 QB, and I wouldn’t care if it wasn’t blue collar enough. 

Allen was, in a solid QB class, a near consensus top10 lock. Absolutely nothing like the the players you mentioned. 

 

He had (and has) all the physical tools. The knock was how raw he was. So he comes out his rookie year showing all the flaws he carried from Wyoming and a lot of the gifts that got him drafted @7th overall, then follows it up w/a sophomore campaign that improved nearly across the board...and people are mad at what exactly? That his development appears to be right on schedule? 

 

FFS the kid said this as a junior in college- “The NFL will be there,” Allen says a day later. “I don’t want to be the guy that gets drafted in the first round, plays four years and then is out of the league. I want to be a guy that plays 15 years with the same organization and be one of the best quarterbacks to ever play the game.’’

 

But 2020 will definitely be the year that decides it for everyone lol right

[Straight Hucklebuck]

2 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Allen was, in a solid QB class, a near consensus top10 lock. Absolutely nothing like the the players you mentioned. 

 

He had (and has) all the physical tools. The knock was how raw he was. So he comes out his rookie year showing all the flaws he carried from Wyoming and a lot of the gifts that got him drafted @7th overall, then follows it up w/a sophomore campaign that improved nearly across the board...and people are mad at what exactly? That his development appears to be right on schedule? 

 

FFS the kid said this as a junior in college- “The NFL will be there,” Allen says a day later. “I don’t want to be the guy that gets drafted in the first round, plays four years and then is out of the league. I want to be a guy that plays 15 years with the same organization and be one of the best quarterbacks to ever play the game.’’

 

But 2020 will definitely be the year that decides it for everyone lol right

Beane and McDermott chose that though.

 

They chose to gut the 2018 offensive skill position players, they chose a QB with middling college production.

 

It’s not relevant to keep going back to how raw he was 2 years ago. This is his third year with the same coaches, with better players around him, with a defense that is keeping teams below 17 points per game.

 

He is getting time to grow and improve. Right now is his time. 
 

If Allen never got a bit better than he is right now, then he would not be a starter for the 15 years he wants. So he has no choice, Beane and McDermott have no choice but to get him to improve. 
 

As I’ve said, he has the work ethic, but watching tape and correcting mistakes does’t mean they’re solved on Sundays.

[GoBills808]

4 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

Beane and McDermott chose that though.

 

They chose to gut the 2018 offensive skill position players, they chose a QB with middling college production.

 

It’s not relevant to keep going back to how raw he was 2 years ago. This is his third year with the same coaches, with better players around him, with a defense that is keeping teams below 17 points per game.

 

He is getting time to grow and improve. Right now is his time. 
 

If Allen never got a bit better than he is right now, then he would not be a starter for the 15 years he wants. So he has no choice, Beane and McDermott have no choice but to get him to improve. 
 

As I’ve said, he has the work ethic, but watching tape and correcting mistakes does’t mean they’re solved on Sundays.

Just say you expect him to be a finished product by the end of Year 2 so you can justify dumping him after his third year in the pros. Then we can stop having this conversation.

[Straight Hucklebuck]

12 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Just say you expect him to be a finished product by the end of Year 2 so you can justify dumping him after his third year in the pros. Then we can stop having this conversation.

I explicitly said the exact opposite in the post you referenced, but when you don’t have the facts pound the table I guess. 

 

 

Edited April 15, 2020 by Straight Hucklebuck

[Shaw66]

1 hour ago, TwistofFate said:

People will say that, and the reason they will is because they were right, not because they are rejoicing. 

 

No one is rejoicing the fact we are screwed without a franchise Qb yet again.   There is nothing joyous about that. 

 

From what I have noticed on these boards, the people who are so convinced he is a franchise guy are emotionally attached to Allen.   People who mention how nice of kid he is, how he's doubted at every stage of his career, how hard of a worker he is, etc, etc.

 

Im not emotionally attached to Allen.   He's got a nice story and he's someone you want to root for, but that doesn't cloud my judgement. 

 

When I evaluate him I evaluate him compared to his peers, his expectation, and his raw performance. 

 

Im not going to deny it, Allen is the main reason we weren't much better last year. If someone asked me what was the weakest link of the 2019 Bills, its without question, Josh Allen. 

 

Im willing to chalk it up as a growing year because he showed some growth, not as much as I expected, but this year there is no excuse imo. 

 

Imo McD and Beane are both EXPECTING to see big growth this year out of Allen.   They are EXPECTING playoff wins.   They are EXPECTING points on the board and TDs.   They have both alluded to this. 

 

Knowing what I know about McBeane, if Allen fails to really pave his way this year, they will begin looking intently for his replacement.

 

To be honest, I wouldn't be surprised if Cam Newton were brought in here as his back up/replacement if he falters this year. 

 

I could absolutely see Cam leading this team while they draft another Qb. 

 

The Panther connection is deep, Cam is proven, and its the ultimate insurance policy. 

You guys have gone off on a tangent with the Lieutenant, and I'm not interested, but this post struck me for a couple of reasons.

 

First, I'm convinced that Allen is the guy, but I'm not in love with his story.   I like the Duke Williams story and root for him, but I really don't care about Allen's story.   He's always struck me as a bit of a goody two-shoes, and I like the guys with a little bit of an edge to them.   I find Mayfield's swagger interesting, although it may also be one of his problems.   I like Mahomes attitude.   I like what I see so far from Jackson.    Allen is more like Luck, or Peyton without the sense of humor.     

 

Second, and more interesting, is your statement that Allen was the main reason the Bills weren't better last year.   I don't know about main reason overall (because maybe Daboll gets that award), but without question if we're talking about guys on the field, Allen was the main reason.   Without question.   There are four or five QBs in the league who, if you put them on the Bills in training camp, maybe win a Super Bowl last season.   That's a really good measure of how far Allen has to go.  

 

But it also makes clear how much different the position is from all the other positions.  It's almost impossible to say of a guy who plays any other position "________ is the main reason we weren't much better last year."    

 

It's that gap in performance that frustrates everyone and seems to make a lot of posters here impatient.    It's a big gap, and it isn't easy.    Now, I'm still not a believer, but it certainly seems like Mahomes has closed the gap pretty well, and Watson seems to be well on his way.   Jackson I'm not so sure.  But for me, the fact that the gap is big isn't nearly as important as what's being done to close it.   Some people, like Gunner, agree, but even Gunner wants to see tangible year-over-year progress that the gap is closing.   I don't think that's necessary from a fan point of view.   I don't think there's necessarily a one-to-one correlation between closing the gap and improving performance.   You can make changes under the hood that make a car run more efficiently without making it go faster.   Then when you add the turbo-charger, big change in performance.  

 

If QBs burned out in ten years, I'd say, sure, you've got to fish or cut bait.  In fact, Cam Newton played a style that actually did cause him to burn out in ten years, and the Panthers have moved on.   But classic franchise QBs are hitting their prime at ten years and have at least five years left after that, maybe seven or even ten.   So investing a few extra years in them can be worth the investment. 

 

I think there's no way the Bills want Newton in the locker room.   The Bills don't want Allen to run the ball like Newton did, so why bring him in as a mentor?   Barkley is better, because Barkley is an actual student of how the Bills want Allen to play.   Plus, Newton wants to start, and the Bills aren't going to want to have a player on the downslope of his career challenging Allen.   A youngster, sure, because Allen isn't exempt from competition.   But not Newton.    If the Bills bring in a veteran, it would be someone who held out the promise of winning now while everyone waits for Allen to improve.   Brady would have made sense - he would have loved running that offense.   Rivers is done, I think, but at least he knows about leading a winning team. Newton has to be Superman, he has to be the star of the show.     Newton never got over being about Newton first, and McBeane know that and don't want that.   

[GoBills808]

3 hours ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

I'm just saying I don't want to hear he's raw, he's young, he played at Wyoming. We're past the jump from Year 1 to Year 2 and all of that.

So you didn't mean this I assume.

[Bangarang]

1 hour ago, Billl said:

Just admit it.  You want the QB of your favorite football team to fail despite having a Super Bowl contender level roster.  It’s obvious.

So obvious that it hurts

[Lieutenant Aldo Raine]

15 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

You guys have gone off on a tangent with the Lieutenant, and I'm not interested, but this post struck me for a couple of reasons.

 

First, I'm convinced that Allen is the guy, but I'm not in love with his story.   I like the Duke Williams story and root for him, but I really don't care about Allen's story.   He's always struck me as a bit of a goody two-shoes, and I like the guys with a little bit of an edge to them.   I find Mayfield's swagger interesting, although it may also be one of his problems.   I like Mahomes attitude.   I like what I see so far from Jackson.    Allen is more like Luck, or Peyton without the sense of humor.     

 

Second, and more interesting, is your statement that Allen was the main reason the Bills weren't better last year.   I don't know about main reason overall (because maybe Daboll gets that award), but without question if we're talking about guys on the field, Allen was the main reason.   Without question.   There are four or five QBs in the league who, if you put them on the Bills in training camp, maybe win a Super Bowl last season.   That's a really good measure of how far Allen has to go.  

 

But it also makes clear how much different the position is from all the other positions.  It's almost impossible to say of a guy who plays any other position "________ is the main reason we weren't much better last year."    

 

It's that gap in performance that frustrates everyone and seems to make a lot of posters here impatient.    It's a big gap, and it isn't easy.    Now, I'm still not a believer, but it certainly seems like Mahomes has closed the gap pretty well, and Watson seems to be well on his way.   Jackson I'm not so sure.  But for me, the fact that the gap is big isn't nearly as important as what's being done to close it.   Some people, like Gunner, agree, but even Gunner wants to see tangible year-over-year progress that the gap is closing.   I don't think that's necessary from a fan point of view.   I don't think there's necessarily a one-to-one correlation between closing the gap and improving performance.   You can make changes under the hood that make a car run more efficiently without making it go faster.   Then when you add the turbo-charger, big change in performance.  

 

If QBs burned out in ten years, I'd say, sure, you've got to fish or cut bait.  In fact, Cam Newton played a style that actually did cause him to burn out in ten years, and the Panthers have moved on.   But classic franchise QBs are hitting their prime at ten years and have at least five years left after that, maybe seven or even ten.   So investing a few extra years in them can be worth the investment. 

 

I think there's no way the Bills want Newton in the locker room.   The Bills don't want Allen to run the ball like Newton did, so why bring him in as a mentor?   Barkley is better, because Barkley is an actual student of how the Bills want Allen to play.   Plus, Newton wants to start, and the Bills aren't going to want to have a player on the downslope of his career challenging Allen.   A youngster, sure, because Allen isn't exempt from competition.   But not Newton.    If the Bills bring in a veteran, it would be someone who held out the promise of winning now while everyone waits for Allen to improve.   Brady would have made sense - he would have loved running that offense.   Rivers is done, I think, but at least he knows about leading a winning team. Newton has to be Superman, he has to be the star of the show.     Newton never got over being about Newton first, and McBeane know that and don't want that.   

 

The point is not for you to like or care about his story, but to understand it and know what drives him.   The guy has been told he doesn't belong at each level, yet has persevered; that's all I was trying to convey...his internal drive.  Some people think its baloney, some people can relate to it, others don't care about it.  It is what it is.  

[Straight Hucklebuck]

11 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

So you didn't mean this I assume.

 

“He is getting more time to grow and improve, right now is his time” - I assume you didn’t read that part.

 

Yeah I don’t want to hear about how raw he was coming out of college two years ago. He has 28 games under his belt now, and our GM determined he was worth moving up for in the Draft despite the rawness. 
 

And if the plan wasn’t for him to start right away, do better than Nate Peterman as the starter. Beane is paid to know more than the fans. 

 

Edited April 15, 2020 by Straight Hucklebuck

[GoBills808]

2 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

 

“He is getting more time to grow and improve, right now is his time” - I assume you didn’t read that part.

 

Yeah I don’t want to hear about how raw he was coming out of college two years ago. He has 28 games under his belt now, and our GM determined he was worth moving up for in the Draft despite the rawness. 

lol keep spinning

[DuckyBoys]

I don't think his background or his story is going to help him succeed.  He'll succeed because he has superior talent, intelligence , drive and work ethic to get where he needs to be.  The organization is now fully commited to his success.    2018 they threw him to the wolves plain and simple.  I really throw that year out. To me he began his run as the Bills qb last year.  In  2019 they surrounded him with middle of the road play makers on offense.  2020 he'll finally have a difference maker in Stefon Diggs and hopefully another talented rb to pair with Devin.  I fully expect with no improvement his stat lines to be better just from Diggs being there.

 

He gets that deep ball down and they teach him to cover the damned football when he's in traffic and I see a big year for him in 2020.  I still don't think we'll have seen his peak for 2-3 more years. 

[jrober38]

4 hours ago, Lieutenant Aldo Raine said:

 

I am not arguing your stats and criticism thereof.  However, you never seem to account for his all-purpose yards and TDs, because let me let you in on something...Yards = Yards.  You never mention how in short yardage, it's almost a gimme; you never seem to credit the 4th QTR and game winning drives in a short career so far;  you hardly criticize Oline play for the mindless penalties putting us into long field position, you never seem to credit when you are in third and long, we at least have a better chance at converting; you never seem to credit leadership, accountability.  Lastly, as with many of you doubters, you don't know his story.  He has been doubted his entire life, yet here he is.  Maybe he will finally flounder at this level so you all can rejoice in your criticism.  With who Allen had last year, where was he going to get his mythical 300 yards from?  Beasley has a career average of 34 yards per game (he averaged 51 with Allen last year); John Brown has a career average of 49 yards per game (he averaged 70 with Allen last year).  So if we are lucky, on a good day together they would average 150 yds.   We need more production from other players such as TEs and RBs.  So while yes his numbers aren't up to par per say, let's not act like his weapons are superior.    

 

The jist of this thread for the past 3-4 days which you obviously failed to read is that in time, every single QB loses their ability to rack up yards on the ground.

Eventually the hits take a toll, they aren't as quick as they once were and they're no longer as willing to get blown up trying to get first downs with their legs. As some point all QBs need to make almost all of their plays from the pocket or they lose their jobs. That's the history of running QBs in the NFL in a nutshell. 

 

So, the question some of us have been debating, is Josh Allen going to be good enough as a passer operating from the pocket to lead an effective offense in 3-4 years once he's no longer running the ball 100 times a season?

 

If he is, he's going to have to improve immensely as a passer. 

Edited April 15, 2020 by jrober38

[Shaw66]

10 minutes ago, jrober38 said:

 

The jist of this thread for the past 3-4 days which you obviously failed to read is that in time, every single QB loses their ability to rack up yards on the ground.

Eventually the hits take a toll, they aren't as quick as they once were and they're no longer as willing to get blown up trying to get first downs with their legs. As some point all QBs need to make almost all of their plays from the pocket or they lose their jobs. That's the history of running QBs in the NFL in a nutshell. 

 

So, the question some of us have been debating, is Josh Allen going to be good enough as a passer operating from the pocket to lead an effective offense in 3-4 years once he's no longer running the ball 100 times a season?

 

If he is, he's going to have to improve immensely as a passer. 

Hooray!!!

 

Nice summary of what this us all about.  

 

And the ultimate question is how long do you wait to see if he can do it?  The problem of course is that if you want to wait for him, you have pay him. 

[jrober38]

7 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Hooray!!!

 

Nice summary of what this us all about.  

 

And the ultimate question is how long do you wait to see if he can do it?  The problem of course is that if you want to wait for him, you have pay him. 

 

As I said earlier today, there's not much recent history of guys making big jumps in their calibre of play after their 3rd year starting. 

 

You can go back about 20 years looking at 1st round QBs and aside from Aaron Rodgers who sat on the bench, they all more or less peaked by the end of their third season. 

Edited April 15, 2020 by jrober38

[GoBills808]

^yep let’s pack it in lmfao

 

Couldn’t have asked for a better summary