Bangarang Posted April 15, 2020 Posted April 15, 2020 6 minutes ago, oldmanfan said: But you know that’s true. Anyone in the board the last couple years knows that. I have said this past week it’s 70:30 Allen winds up our long term guy. He has played two years and improved year 2 over year one. The underlying assumption of this thread and many of the posts herein is that he won’t continue improving with no reason to think so. Why is that? Simple question that no one seems to want to answer. He implied that I have already made up my mind on Allen which is what I considered nonsense. There are people who think he’s destined to be a bust or not the long term answer. There are also people who think he is already the franchise QB or destined to be in the HoF. The next few years will prove who is right.
Shaw66 Posted April 15, 2020 Posted April 15, 2020 23 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said: I agree with all this. Beane and McDermott have built their culture, hand selected Allen for his tools, leadership, etc. But ... Aren't these the same Football Men/Coaches who tell the fans the following all the time: 1. The Jump from Year 1 to Year 2 2. Taking all the reps in OTAs 3. Not looking over your shoulder in Training Camp 4. Continuity with the OC, QB Coach and scheme 5. Gelling with the offensive line 6. Getting more weapons 7. Seeing the same team multiple times 8. Playing a full 16 games 9. Can't evaluate a draft until 3 years 10. Hitting an NFL weight room 11. Reviewing the tape and correcting mistakes 12. Supporting with a strong running game 13. Don't want to take away aggressiveness by over emphasizing turnovers 14. Respect the football The Bills have provided all of these things, to go with a defense that gives the Bills offense chances. As far as Trent, Fitzpatrick, Taylor, I mention them because the conversations among fans sound the same. More time in the system, need better weapons, needs a better line, needs Coaches who don't overemphasize turnovers. The Bills have nothing behind Allen, and nothing in the pipeline. He has to work. But I remain unconvinced that 2020 can look like 2019 without loss of some faith in Allen by Bills fans and the FO. The Bills just traded the 1st Round pick to help Allen more. If it doesn't happen in Year 3, then it doesn't mean it won't happen in Year 4, but I don't see anyway that the statistics on a sudden uptick would increase. That's a great list, and it's all true. However, I don't think it matters. History doesn't matter in McBeane's world. What matters in their world is this and only this: 1. Does he have potential? 2. Can we expect him to improve? You may answer #2 with history, but McDermott doesn't. McDermott believes above all else in continuous improvement, and if he sees the reasonable opportunity for improvement, he wants the guy. Now, granted, if they've tried for three seasons to teach Allen how to do some critical things, at some point they decide they can't expect him to improve. But it's not going to be whether he succeeded in 2020, and it's not going to be whether he had 300-yard games. It's going to be things that I don't understand or rarely think about. It's going to be about details known pretty much only to the coaches and Allen. As for nothing behind Allen, that's for sure, and I'm sure Beane is thinking about that. But right now, and next year, he's more likely to be thinking about the string of Brissetts, and Cassels and all those other guys the Pats had. He's not thinking too hard about a Garoppolo.
Lieutenant Aldo Raine Posted April 15, 2020 Posted April 15, 2020 5 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said: Nobody will rejoice when he flounders. That's a classic embellishment to try and get a rise, nobody said that. By the way Carson Wentz threw for 27 TDs and 7 Ints with practice squad WR's and two NFL Tight Ends. In 2020, if the Bills offense averages 28 ppg and Allen throws for over 4,000 yards! Heck yeah, that's what we all want, all fans would love that. A dominant Bills offense for the first time since the 1990's? Yes. I'm not saying get the hook, Allen is the guy, go get it. I'm just saying I don't want to hear he's raw, he's young, he played at Wyoming. We're past the jump from Year 1 to Year 2 and all of that. He has the weapons now, there is no Tom the Terrible in division anymore, the Jets have no offensive weapons, and the Dolphins are trying to cash in draft picks. Of course no will say that now, but let me ask you this? If he were to flounder, how many of you would be "I told you so, he sucks", "I have been saying it for three years". That's called rejoicing when he flounders, and there are plenty in here who would be doing that, and perhaps deservedly so. I guess I'm more invested in the kid because I want to see him succeed and because many of us see the potential in what he could become.
GoBills808 Posted April 15, 2020 Posted April 15, 2020 Maybe @SDS can provide some data on site traffic for the 'nobody rejoices when Allen fails' argument Anecdotally it does not wash in the slightest
Bangarang Posted April 15, 2020 Posted April 15, 2020 11 minutes ago, Lieutenant Aldo Raine said: Okay Bangarang. I'm a troll because you and your 11000 posts said so. I've been around long enough to know you too doubted Josh before you slowly came around. I've read your posts, and back then you had your mind made up just as @GoBills808 stated, but then you started to change your mind. Since you also want to bring the discussion down and call me a troll, perhaps you should become a moderator and then you CAN CONTROL everyone's opinions. What does my post count have to do with anything? I don’t hide from the fact that I didn’t like Allen coming out of college. I wanted Rosen. Allen has exceeded my expectations despite starting sooner than I would have expected. It’s even more impressive when you factor in how little he’s had to work with (until now). Saying my mind has been made up in regards to Allen is wrong. Stop pushing some fake narrative. 2
GunnerBill Posted April 15, 2020 Posted April 15, 2020 49 minutes ago, Lieutenant Aldo Raine said: I am not arguing your stats and criticism thereof. However, you never seem to account for his all-purpose yards and TDs, because let me let you in on something...Yards = Yards. You never mention how in short yardage, it's almost a gimme; you never seem to credit the 4th QTR and game winning drives in a short career so far; you hardly criticize Oline play for the mindless penalties putting us into long field position, you never seem to credit when you are in third and long, we at least have a better chance at converting; you never seem to credit leadership, accountability. Lastly, as with many of you doubters, you don't know his story. He has been doubted his entire life, yet here he is. Maybe he will finally flounder at this level so you all can rejoice in your criticism. With who Allen had last year, where was he going to get his mythical 300 yards from? Beasley has a career average of 34 yards per game (he averaged 51 with Allen last year); John Brown has a career average of 49 yards per game (he averaged 70 with Allen last year). So if we are lucky, on a good day together they would average 150 yds. We need more production from other players such as TEs and RBs. So while yes his numbers aren't up to par per say, let's not act like his weapons are superior. So I am not a doubter. I was when he wad drafted but I am a cautious optimist at this point. That said, why should I care about his story? I mean granted I am an emotional vacuum but what difference does his story make to whether he can play Quarterback at the NFL level? It is good pull on the heart strings stuff but it is all a bit Hollywood for me. Screw story. Give me production. I think Josh will keep getting better and I am interested to see where it takes him but plenty of people have been doubted. Spare me the little guy fighting against the odds. I don't care whether you played for Alabama or Appalachian State. Just produce.
FireChans Posted April 15, 2020 Posted April 15, 2020 8 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: So I am not a doubter. I was when he wad drafted but I am a cautious optimist at this point. That said, why should I care about his story? I mean granted I am an emotional vacuum but what difference does his story make to whether he can play Quarterback at the NFL level? It is good pull on the heart strings stuff but it is all a bit Hollywood for me. Screw story. Give me production. I think Josh will keep getting better and I am interested to see where it takes him but plenty of people have been doubted. Spare me the little guy fighting against the odds. I don't care whether you played for Alabama or Appalachian State. Just produce. Some folks forget that if Brady went #1 overall instead of in the 6th round, he’d still be the greatest of all time. 37 minutes ago, Shaw66 said: That's a great list, and it's all true. However, I don't think it matters. History doesn't matter in McBeane's world. What matters in their world is this and only this: 1. Does he have potential? 2. Can we expect him to improve? You may answer #2 with history, but McDermott doesn't. McDermott believes above all else in continuous improvement, and if he sees the reasonable opportunity for improvement, he wants the guy. Now, granted, if they've tried for three seasons to teach Allen how to do some critical things, at some point they decide they can't expect him to improve. But it's not going to be whether he succeeded in 2020, and it's not going to be whether he had 300-yard games. It's going to be things that I don't understand or rarely think about. It's going to be about details known pretty much only to the coaches and Allen. As for nothing behind Allen, that's for sure, and I'm sure Beane is thinking about that. But right now, and next year, he's more likely to be thinking about the string of Brissetts, and Cassels and all those other guys the Pats had. He's not thinking too hard about a Garoppolo. McD didn’t believe Tyrod would continuously improve. McBeane didn’t believe Zay Jones would continuously improve. They didn’t believe Wyatt Teller would continuously improve. It sounds like you agree, for the most part. It’s very important that Allen improves next year because if he plateaus, it might be time to start sniffing around other potential QB’s.
Lieutenant Aldo Raine Posted April 15, 2020 Posted April 15, 2020 (edited) 33 minutes ago, Bangarang said: What does my post count have to do with anything? I don’t hide from the fact that I didn’t like Allen coming out of college. I wanted Rosen. Allen has exceeded my expectations despite starting sooner than I would have expected. It’s even more impressive when you factor in how little he’s had to work with (until now). Saying my mind has been made up in regards to Allen is wrong. Stop pushing some fake narrative. I did allude your mind was made up about Allen at first and you slowly came around. You just admitted to the fact. I remember reading many of your posts, and early on you clearly doubted Allen. I never alluded that you still hold that sentiment, I clearly stated that you have changed your mind on him some. All @GoBills08 alluded to, was the fact that some people still hold the same preconception, and you called it nonsense. Edited April 15, 2020 by Lieutenant Aldo Raine
GoBills808 Posted April 15, 2020 Posted April 15, 2020 3 minutes ago, Lieutenant Aldo Raine said: I did allude your mind was made up about Allen at first and you slowly came around. You just admitted to the fact. I remember reading many of your posts, and early on you clearly doubted Allen. I never alluded that you still hold that sentiment, I clearly stated that you have changed your mind on him some. All @GoBills08 alluded to, was the fact that some people still hold the same preconception, and you called it nonsense. The majority of posters IN THIS THREAD ALONE are the ones who, if you read back through the thread on draft day, were in their feels 1000% about 'wrong josh/right josh' They were wrong then, they're still wrong now. They won't acknowledge it. It's time to just let it play out and they'll either eventually have to change their tune or just pretend they were on board all along.
TwistofFate Posted April 15, 2020 Posted April 15, 2020 29 minutes ago, Lieutenant Aldo Raine said: Of course no will say that now, but let me ask you this? If he were to flounder, how many of you would be "I told you so, he sucks", "I have been saying it for three years". That's called rejoicing when he flounders, and there are plenty in here who would be doing that, and perhaps deservedly so. I guess I'm more invested in the kid because I want to see him succeed and because many of us see the potential in what he could become. People will say that, and the reason they will is because they were right, not because they are rejoicing. No one is rejoicing the fact we are screwed without a franchise Qb yet again. There is nothing joyous about that. From what I have noticed on these boards, the people who are so convinced he is a franchise guy are emotionally attached to Allen. People who mention how nice of kid he is, how he's doubted at every stage of his career, how hard of a worker he is, etc, etc. Im not emotionally attached to Allen. He's got a nice story and he's someone you want to root for, but that doesn't cloud my judgement. When I evaluate him I evaluate him compared to his peers, his expectation, and his raw performance. Im not going to deny it, Allen is the main reason we weren't much better last year. If someone asked me what was the weakest link of the 2019 Bills, its without question, Josh Allen. Im willing to chalk it up as a growing year because he showed some growth, not as much as I expected, but this year there is no excuse imo. Imo McD and Beane are both EXPECTING to see big growth this year out of Allen. They are EXPECTING playoff wins. They are EXPECTING points on the board and TDs. They have both alluded to this. Knowing what I know about McBeane, if Allen fails to really pave his way this year, they will begin looking intently for his replacement. To be honest, I wouldn't be surprised if Cam Newton were brought in here as his back up/replacement if he falters this year. I could absolutely see Cam leading this team while they draft another Qb. The Panther connection is deep, Cam is proven, and its the ultimate insurance policy. 1
Lieutenant Aldo Raine Posted April 15, 2020 Posted April 15, 2020 20 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: So I am not a doubter. I was when he wad drafted but I am a cautious optimist at this point. That said, why should I care about his story? I mean granted I am an emotional vacuum but what difference does his story make to whether he can play Quarterback at the NFL level? It is good pull on the heart strings stuff but it is all a bit Hollywood for me. Screw story. Give me production. I think Josh will keep getting better and I am interested to see where it takes him but plenty of people have been doubted. Spare me the little guy fighting against the odds. I don't care whether you played for Alabama or Appalachian State. Just produce. You can call it story, but it's real life. He's been shunned at JUCO, at D1, and now at the NFL and by many of is own fan base. He took a crappy 2 win Wyoming team to two straight bowl games in his two years as starter, and took the Bills to the playoffs in his second season. That is production, may not be all fancy and glossy with bright lights and stats, but he produces; it's just not as flashy. Like I said, you dont' know nor care to even know him and how he got to where hes' at. That's real life, that's character, and that resilience is what will hopefully make him successful whether you buy into what's in person's character or not.
BillsCelticsAngelsBama Posted April 15, 2020 Posted April 15, 2020 (edited) 7 minutes ago, TwistofFate said: People will say that, and the reason they will is because they were right, not because they are rejoicing. No one is rejoicing the fact we are screwed without a franchise Qb yet again. There is nothing joyous about that. From what I have noticed on these boards, the people who are so convinced he is a franchise guy are emotionally attached to Allen. People who mention how nice of kid he is, how he's doubted at every stage of his career, how hard of a worker he is, etc, etc. Im not emotionally attached to Allen. He's got a nice story and he's someone you want to root for, but that doesn't cloud my judgement. When I evaluate him I evaluate him compared to his peers, his expectation, and his raw performance. Im not going to deny it, Allen is the main reason we weren't much better last year. If someone asked me what was the weakest link of the 2019 Bills, its without question, Josh Allen. Im willing to chalk it up as a growing year because he showed some growth, not as much as I expected, but this year there is no excuse imo. Imo McD and Beane are both EXPECTING to see big growth this year out of Allen. They are EXPECTING playoff wins. They are EXPECTING points on the board and TDs. They have both alluded to this. Knowing what I know about McBeane, if Allen fails to really pave his way this year, they will begin looking intently for his replacement. To be honest, I wouldn't be surprised if Cam Newton were brought in here as his back up/replacement if he falters this year. I could absolutely see Cam leading this team while they draft another Qb. The Panther connection is deep, Cam is proven, and its the ultimate insurance policy. Don't know about the end of you post about Cam, but the rest is pure gold. If there is someone here who wants him to fail so they can be right, they are one sadistic S.O.B. But I find it amusing the pure hate from the Pro-Allen side. I would much rather be wrong and watch him hold up the Super Bowl MVP than be right. But fans come in all sorts. The difference is really the personal attacks from "Allen is great" side. Edited April 15, 2020 by MOVALLEYRANDY 1
Bangarang Posted April 15, 2020 Posted April 15, 2020 16 minutes ago, Lieutenant Aldo Raine said: I did allude your mind was made up about Allen at first and you slowly came around. You just admitted to the fact. I remember reading many of your posts, and early on you clearly doubted Allen. I never alluded that you still hold that sentiment, I clearly stated that you have changed your mind on him some. All @GoBills08 alluded to, was the fact that some people still hold the same preconception, and you called it nonsense. I called it nonsense because he alluded that I was part of some group who have their minds made up. That’s what I called nonsense. How many more times do I have to say that? 1
GunnerBill Posted April 15, 2020 Posted April 15, 2020 9 minutes ago, Lieutenant Aldo Raine said: You can call it story, but it's real life. He's been shunned at JUCO, at D1, and now at the NFL and by many of is own fan base. He took a crappy 2 win Wyoming team to two straight bowl games in his two years as starter, and took the Bills to the playoffs in his second season. That is production, may not be all fancy and glossy with bright lights and stats, but he produces; it's just not as flashy. Like I said, you dont' know nor care to even know him and how he got to where hes' at. That's real life, that's character, and that resilience is what will hopefully make him successful whether you buy into what's in person's character or not. I appreciate his production. Glossy or otherwise. I don't appreciate it any more because he came the hard road. It isn't about buying into his character. I just don't think it is about where a person comes from. It is about where they are going. Story schmory. 1
BillsCelticsAngelsBama Posted April 15, 2020 Posted April 15, 2020 2 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: I appreciate his production. Glossy or otherwise. I don't appreciate it any more because he came the hard road. It isn't about buying into his character. I just don't think it is about where a person comes from. It is about where they are going. Story schmory. But it will make for a better movie
Lieutenant Aldo Raine Posted April 15, 2020 Posted April 15, 2020 1 minute ago, GunnerBill said: I appreciate his production. Glossy or otherwise. I don't appreciate it any more because he came the hard road. It isn't about buying into his character. I just don't think it is about where a person comes from. It is about where they are going. Story schmory. I think it's about both, where they came from and where they are going. Character, desire, motivation has a lot to do with it. Talent can only get you so far.
GunnerBill Posted April 15, 2020 Posted April 15, 2020 7 minutes ago, Lieutenant Aldo Raine said: I think it's about both, where they came from and where they are going. Character, desire, motivation has a lot to do with it. Talent can only get you so far. Why can you not have character, desire and motivation without Josh's backstory? I think that is baloney to be honest. Tom Brady was a middle class California boy. He never seemed to struggle with motivation or desire.
Lieutenant Aldo Raine Posted April 15, 2020 Posted April 15, 2020 (edited) 6 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: Why can you not have character, desire and motivation without Josh's backstory? I think that is baloney to be honest. Tom Brady was a middle class California boy. He never seemed to struggle with motivation or desire. People have different motivations, it's what drives them. You have your own personal motivations for what ever you do? Nobody knows what Brady's motivations were or are? Perhaps early on it was because he was a 6th round pick, maybe later it was something else. If you think all that is baloney, that's on you, but these are some of the core principles, in additional to talent, Beane and McDermott use to build this roster. Edited April 15, 2020 by Lieutenant Aldo Raine
GunnerBill Posted April 15, 2020 Posted April 15, 2020 Just now, Lieutenant Aldo Raine said: People have different motivations, it's what drives them. You have your own personal motivations for what ever you do? Nobody knows what Brady's motivations were or are? Perhaps early on it was because he was a 6th round pick, maybe later it was something else. If you think all that is baloney, that's on you, but these are some of the core principles, in additional to talent, Beane and McDermott use to build this roster. I believe in character and I believe in motivation. I don't believe I have to know Josh Allen's story to know he is motivated. Nor do I believe that if Allen had Quarterbacked Alabama he would be any less motivated. It is the value of the story I am sceptical of. Not the value of character.
FireChans Posted April 15, 2020 Posted April 15, 2020 31 minutes ago, Lieutenant Aldo Raine said: You can call it story, but it's real life. He's been shunned at JUCO, at D1, and now at the NFL and by many of is own fan base. He took a crappy 2 win Wyoming team to two straight bowl games in his two years as starter, and took the Bills to the playoffs in his second season. That is production, may not be all fancy and glossy with bright lights and stats, but he produces; it's just not as flashy. Like I said, you dont' know nor care to even know him and how he got to where hes' at. That's real life, that's character, and that resilience is what will hopefully make him successful whether you buy into what's in person's character or not. You can play this silly game with everyone. “Josh Rosen inexplicably fell from being possible #1 overall to the 4th QB off the board. That’s his fuel.” “Lamar Jackson was a Heisman-Winning QB who was asked to change position, drafted after college QB’s who didn’t accomplish half of what he did”
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