Billl Posted April 15, 2020 Posted April 15, 2020 2 hours ago, jrober38 said: For 5.9 yards per attempt. He had just over 100 yards passing through 3 quarters and did absolutely nothing but check the ball down for minimal gains. Just so I’m clear, you’re saying that all a QB has to do in order to get respect is to throw 56 TDs, 15 INTs in 2 seasons, win on the road in the playoffs at New Orleans, and then win on the road against the best defense in the NFL when his team gets outrushed by 160 yards? I’m assuming he’d have had to outduel Mahomes in the Super Bowl as well or we’d be having this same conversation. He’s a guy people love to disrespect, but he’s absolutely a top 10 QB. Honestly, I kind of do get it. I’ve watched him enough to know that there are 2 plays a game when he does something that seems totally gutless, but he puts up numbers and wins a ton of games. Alex Smith was the same way, but Cousins puts up bigger numbers. The Vikings would be a perfect candidate to draft a QB with huge upside similar to what KC did.
DuckyBoys Posted April 15, 2020 Posted April 15, 2020 7 hours ago, Billl said: He’s given them 4 years of top 10 QB production for pennies on the dollar. His performance has been worth easily $30,000,000 in terms of value per year. He’s averaged less than $3,000,000. He’s damn right that he deserves $35,000,000. What have they done with that $120,000,000 in surplus value that leads anyone to believe that the Cowboys can build a competitive team around him if he makes $32,000,000 but not if he makes $35,000,000? Good luck finding another 26 year old QB to give you 30 TDs and 5,000 yards without turning the ball over who doesn’t want to be paid elite money. Problem is he's achieving that production with the help of a 20 Mill a year wr, a 16 mill year rb and the NFL's most expensive offensive line. Somewhere in there somebody's not earning that money and that leaves the rest of their roster middling at best
Shaw66 Posted April 15, 2020 Posted April 15, 2020 4 hours ago, jrober38 said: Agreed. Running QBs need to figure out how to pick teams apart with their arm. No one's ability to run the ball as a huge weapon lasts. That's my issue with Josh, some people may not agree, but if you take away Josh's running ability or it declines considerably in 3-4 years once he's taking so many more hits, is his passing ability even remotely good enough to carry a team while he's eating up roughly 20% of the salary cap by himself? Is a mid to high 80s QB Rating and a bottom 10 completion percentage really enough to demand top dollar? I don't think so. But maybe that's just me. Secondarily, I totally agree with you that everyone wants a franchise QB, I just think they're going to be unbelievably rare in the league going forward. Looking forward as far as I can, I don't know who the elite QBs in the NFL are going to be once Brady, Big Ben, Rodgers and Brees all are retired within 2-3 years. You'll have Mahomes, Watson below him, and then a grand canyon sized void between the elite guys and the next 20 best QBs in the league who are essentially all inter-changeable in my eyes. Like if I was Dallas, I would 100% cut bait on Dak and draft someone new. They'll have a great line, elite RB, elite receivers and a very good defense. It's the perfect situation to walk into so I can't understand why on earth they consider paying the 10-15th best QB $35-40 mil and bury themselves under the cap. Kansas City on the other hand is in a completely different position. They need to lock Mahomes up for all the money because he's shown he can make it work with rookie receivers around him. I get that everyone wants the franchise QB, I just don't think people should talk themselves into making bad decisions when there's so much money involved. Very interesting. You may be right. I think you will have four or five, but they just haven't emerged yet. Allen, Darnold, Dak, Wentz, and I know people think I'm nuts but I put Tannehill there too, all are guys who might emerge. Burroughs. Mayfield. Jackson. Some of them will turn out to be dominant. But that's just what I think. I see how you could be right. Thanks. 1
Straight Hucklebuck Posted April 15, 2020 Posted April 15, 2020 21 minutes ago, Shaw66 said: Very interesting. You may be right. I think you will have four or five, but they just haven't emerged yet. Allen, Darnold, Dak, Wentz, and I know people think I'm nuts but I put Tannehill there too, all are guys who might emerge. Burroughs. Mayfield. Jackson. Some of them will turn out to be dominant. But that's just what I think. I see how you could be right. Thanks. Right now it’s Mahomes in the AFC and Russell Wilson in the NFC. There have been so many QBs to come into the league recently and they all are starting: Murray, Allen, Jackson, Mayfield, Darnold, Jones, Haskins, Lock, and now Burrow, Tua, Herbert, Love.
Billl Posted April 15, 2020 Posted April 15, 2020 1 hour ago, DuckyBoys said: Problem is he's achieving that production with the help of a 20 Mill a year wr, a 16 mill year rb and the NFL's most expensive offensive line. Somewhere in there somebody's not earning that money and that leaves the rest of their roster middling at best That $20,000,000 WR’s production with Carr was crap compared to what it was with Dak. Who helped who? Let Dak walk and see how Cooper does catching passes from Mariota while Jake Fromm waits for his turn on the carousel. 1
TwistofFate Posted April 15, 2020 Posted April 15, 2020 Completion % above 60% 2 or more 300+ yard games 3800+ yards on the season 24+ Tds Qb rating of 90 or higher. If he is a real franchise guy, these are numbers I expect. He's got the coaching staff, the weapons, and the continuity. No excuses this year. This is the year to prove you are the man and you've arrived. If he fails to take a substantial step forward, OBD needs to seriously evaluate the position and their options next off-season. 2
Lieutenant Aldo Raine Posted April 15, 2020 Posted April 15, 2020 2 hours ago, TwistofFate said: Completion % above 60% 2 or more 300+ yard games 3800+ yards on the season 24+ Tds Qb rating of 90 or higher. If he is a real franchise guy, these are numbers I expect. He's got the coaching staff, the weapons, and the continuity. No excuses this year. This is the year to prove you are the man and you've arrived. If he fails to take a substantial step forward, OBD needs to seriously evaluate the position and their options next off-season. Notice you didn’t put wins in there? So what you’re really saying is that you want another Derek Carr.
GunnerBill Posted April 15, 2020 Posted April 15, 2020 2 hours ago, TwistofFate said: Completion % above 60% 2 or more 300+ yard games 3800+ yards on the season 24+ Tds Qb rating of 90 or higher. If he is a real franchise guy, these are numbers I expect. He's got the coaching staff, the weapons, and the continuity. No excuses this year. This is the year to prove you are the man and you've arrived. If he fails to take a substantial step forward, OBD needs to seriously evaluate the position and their options next off-season. 300 yards games remain a meh for me. The only game last year where I honestly feel like Josh failing to get to 300 played a part in us losing was Cleveland - which I thought was his worst game. There were plays to be made that day that he missed and I think he ended on 260 odd yards. If he hits one or two of those plays, even on the final drive, we probably win and he goes over 300. Generally though playing with this defense you are not gonna need Josh to go over 300 that often. Rather than arbitrary numbers I am looking at how many times do we require him to do it next year and does he step up to the plate on those occasions. I had him 0/1 in 2019 but as yet that isn't enough of a pattern for me to worry about it.
JaCrispy Posted April 15, 2020 Posted April 15, 2020 14 minutes ago, Lieutenant Aldo Raine said: Notice you didn’t put wins in there? So what you’re really saying is that you want another Derek Carr. Wins are a team stat... Everybody wants to win, but if we are talking about what we want in a QB, it is ideal to have QB production that helps beat the better teams in the league...because unless your defense is the 85 Bears or 00 Ravens, sub par QB production will not be enough... So, with our defense, Derek Carr stats would make us Super Bowl contenders...less than that and we are just wild card contenders... 6 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: 300 yards games remain a meh for me. The only game last year where I honestly feel like Josh failing to get to 300 played a part in us losing was Cleveland - which I thought was his worst game. There were plays to be made that day that he missed and I think he ended on 260 odd yards. If he hits one or two of those plays, even on the final drive, we probably win and he goes over 300. Generally though playing with this defense you are not gonna need Josh to go over 300 that often. Rather than arbitrary numbers I am looking at how many times do we require him to do it next year and does he step up to the plate on those occasions. I had him 0/1 in 2019 but as yet that isn't enough of a pattern for me to worry about it. I would also add our wild card game...with the amount of attempts Josh had in that game, had he thrown for 300 yards, Bills likely win... 1
thebandit27 Posted April 15, 2020 Posted April 15, 2020 7 hours ago, Billl said: That $20,000,000 WR’s production with Carr was crap compared to what it was with Dak. Who helped who? Let Dak walk and see how Cooper does catching passes from Mariota while Jake Fromm waits for his turn on the carousel. Crap with Carr? Patently false. He had 1,070 and 1,153 yards in seasons 1 and 2, respectively.
Lieutenant Aldo Raine Posted April 15, 2020 Posted April 15, 2020 (edited) 29 minutes ago, JaCrispy said: Wins are a team stat... Everybody wants to win, but if we are talking about what we want in a QB, it is ideal to have QB production that helps beat the better teams in the league...because unless your defense is the 85 Bears or 00 Ravens, sub par QB production will not be enough... So, with our defense, Derek Carr stats would make us Super Bowl contenders...less than that and we are just wild card contenders... I would also add our wild card game...with the amount of attempts Josh had in that game, had he thrown for 300 yards, Bills likely win... Then why don’t the Bills go get Derek Carr then? It seems so obvious, Carr is the missing link right? So if Josh throws 300 yds, the Bills win. Prove to me exactly how 36 more yds passing wins the game? I mean, the kid had 372 combined yards. He had his share in the loss no doubt, but if it’s a team stat (and I can agree with that) why did you leave out the defensive collapse and put the loss on Josh and 36 more yds? Edited April 15, 2020 by Lieutenant Aldo Raine
GunnerBill Posted April 15, 2020 Posted April 15, 2020 33 minutes ago, JaCrispy said: I would also add our wild card game...with the amount of attempts Josh had in that game, had he thrown for 300 yards, Bills likely win... I suppose. I kinda just felt a bit more that Josh made the plays in that game it was the talent around him that didn't - Duke, Brown etc.
JaCrispy Posted April 15, 2020 Posted April 15, 2020 1 minute ago, GunnerBill said: I suppose. I kinda just felt a bit more that Josh made the plays in that game it was the talent around him that didn't - Duke, Brown etc. that was certainly part of it...
BigBillsFan Posted April 15, 2020 Posted April 15, 2020 17 minutes ago, Lieutenant Aldo Raine said: Then why don’t the Bills go get Derek Carr then? It seems so obvious, Carr is the missing link right? So if Josh throws 300 yds, the Bills win. Prove to me exactly how 36 more yds passing wins the game? I mean, the kid had 372 combined yards. He had his share in the loss no doubt, but if it’s a team stat (and I can agree with that) why did you leave out the defensive collapse and put the loss on Josh and 36 more yds? I consider Drew Brees one of the best 3 QBs of all time when you factor in more than the stats but longevity as well. For 3 years his team went 7-9. In 2016 when they went 7-9 he threw for 5208 yard, 70 completion rate, a rating over 100 with 37 TD to 15 Ints. Matt Stafford in 2019 played all-world before he got injured. All a QB can do is be a facilitator to help the team win. He doesn't play special teams or defense. He doesn't coach. Shawn King, Sanchez, Tebow, Trubisky, et al. have all "lead" their teams to playoffs and wins in the playoffs. QB "wins" just means he gave his team the best chance on offense to perform. That's it. No QB can win a game. 1 1
TwistofFate Posted April 15, 2020 Posted April 15, 2020 15 minutes ago, Lieutenant Aldo Raine said: Then why don’t the Bills go get Derek Carr then? It seems so obvious, Carr is the missing link right? So if Josh throws 300 yds, the Bills win. Prove to me exactly how 36 more yds passing wins the game? I mean, the kid had 356 combined yards. He had his share in the loss no doubt, but if it’s a team stat (and I can agree with that) why did you leave out the defensive collapse and put the loss on Josh and 36 more yds? Because we are devoloping Allen. They are giving him everything around him to put up those numbers. 300+ yard game shows you have the ability to be in a gun fight and are never out if a game. I really don't understand how anyone can be cool with Buffalo not having a 300+ yard passer in how many games? Everyone wants to win. But Josh throwing 169 yards on 34 attempts in a blow out loss at home to Philly last year, is a prime example of wanting or needing a Qb capable of putting up. This is Josh's year, those numbers are his expectations, and they aren't radical. 3
thebandit27 Posted April 15, 2020 Posted April 15, 2020 (edited) 8 minutes ago, TwistofFate said: Everyone wants to win. But Josh throwing 169 yards on 34 attempts in a blow out loss at home to Philly last year, is a prime example of wanting or needing a Qb capable of putting up. This is Josh's year, those numbers are his expectations, and they aren't radical. Interesting to note that the example you offered of Allen’s lack of passing is from a game that was played in 50 MPH wind gusts when the opposing QB threw for 172 yards For the record, the Bills produced 53 yards of offense that didn’t come from Josh Allen. The Eagles had two RBs that each produced more than that on the ground. Sometimes context matters. Edited April 15, 2020 by thebandit27
Lieutenant Aldo Raine Posted April 15, 2020 Posted April 15, 2020 8 minutes ago, TwistofFate said: Because we are devoloping Allen. They are giving him everything around him to put up those numbers. 300+ yard game shows you have the ability to be in a gun fight and are never out if a game. I really don't understand how anyone can be cool with Buffalo not having a 300+ yard passer in how many games? Everyone wants to win. But Josh throwing 169 yards on 34 attempts in a blow out loss at home to Philly last year, is a prime example of wanting or needing a Qb capable of putting up. This is Josh's year, those numbers are his expectations, and they aren't radical. No they’re not radical numbers at all, and I honestly think that’s a good bench mark. However, you fail to convince me how the mythical 300 yds equates to anything but 300 yards. 2
TwistofFate Posted April 15, 2020 Posted April 15, 2020 1 minute ago, thebandit27 said: Interesting to note that the example you offered of Allen’s lack of passing is from a game that was played in 50 MPH wind gusts when the opposing QB threw for 172 yards Please, I can't anymore excuses for Allen. He was drafted because of his "big arm" to play in buffalo wind. He was just terrible in that game. Between the fumbles and horrible passes it was practically unwatchable. There are many other examples, pick one. 1
oldmanfan Posted April 15, 2020 Posted April 15, 2020 2 minutes ago, TwistofFate said: Please, I can't anymore excuses for Allen. He was drafted because of his "big arm" to play in buffalo wind. He was just terrible in that game. Between the fumbles and horrible passes it was practically unwatchable. There are many other examples, pick one. It’s funny. I’ve been accused by some of incorrectly stating there are people on this board who do not want to see Allen succeed. To all of you, here you go.
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