Josh Allen "Prove it" Season In Year 3

[BigBillsFan]

1 hour ago, Billl said:

Lamar Jackson is basically Warren Moon.

 

Warren was worlds better from the pocket and played a long career. Jackson just produces more in his system because he's an amazing athlete. I can't imagine Jackson playing 4-5 years at this level. 2-3 if he's lucky. The dude was getting body-slammed from the front 7 of D's IF they got a hold of him. I've seen him picked up and slammed hard a few times with no flag.

[GunnerBill]

25 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I'm not saying Allen is better now than Newton ever was.  So even if it were true, which it isn't, that Newton's worst year outclassed his best year, it doesn't respond to what I said.   Check out 2014 and 2016.

 

The question is whether Newton was a successful pick.   He was drafted to be an all-round NFL QB, not a running QB.   It was said over and over again that he had to stop running so much and learn to play QB at an elite level.   That was his challenge from year two.   He couldn't do it, and he didn't do it.   Allen was drafted for the same reason.   If Allen succeeds  because of his legs, he will have failed.   

 

It's very simple.   When you take a QB #1 overall, or when you invest the draft capital in a guy like the Bills invested in Allen, barring injury or some other things, the day you draft him you expect him to be your presumptive starter in year 10.   You expect him to be a master QB who actually has just come into his prime.   He's 34, 35, he has 8-10 years experience, and he has a threat to beat anybody, any time.   That's what a franchise quarterback is.   If you're releasing the guy going into year his tenth year, he did not achieve what you drafted him for.   

 

Matt Ryan, taken third overall, is a successful draft pick.  I'm not a Ryan fan.   He makes a lot of plays, but he hasn't ever been the kind of guy who makes you worried when he has the ball with two minutes left in the game.   But whether I like him or not, he's been a success.   Why?  Because year after year, he's the presumptive starter.   No one ever says that the Falcons should be looking for another guy.   Maybe they should be, but year after year, when they look at the QB spot, the coaches aren't saying to themselves, "we need another guy."    

 

Newton hasn't been that guy for a few years, and that means the draft pick was a failure.   Nice player and all, but he didn't do what you drafted him for.  

 

Sure, Newton put some nice numbers here and there, and he went to a Super Bowl, but no one wants him today because he hasn't learned how to play QB at a high level.  

 

 

Matt Ryan is an outstanding Quarterback. He is just below the elite group. And if Kyle Shanahan wasn't a bit dim he would have a Superbowl that I think his career deserves. As it is he joins Rivers in that "never quite won one" camp. 

[DuckyBoys]

I think Cam was a success.  He carried that Panthers team.  Did he ever develop into a prototypical qb?  No he did not but as long as his body held up that combination of ability won a lot of football games.  I don't see Lamar being able to last as long as Cam did unless he does alter his playing style .  Lamar is Mike Vick except the Ravens were smart enough to incorporate an offense that highlights what he does well and minimizes what he is not good at .... yet.  Can Newton was unique in that his body type allowed for continued usage as a college option style qb in the nfl.  

 

I'm re-watching all of last years games for the 3rd time.  Seems each time I go back I see a different angle as far as the qb play and offense as a whole . 

 

 

[C.Biscuit97]

12 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I'm not saying Allen is better now than Newton ever was.  So even if it were true, which it isn't, that Newton's worst year outclassed his best year, it doesn't respond to what I said.   Check out 2014 and 2016.

 

The question is whether Newton was a successful pick.   He was drafted to be an all-round NFL QB, not a running QB.   It was said over and over again that he had to stop running so much and learn to play QB at an elite level.   That was his challenge from year two.   He couldn't do it, and he didn't do it.   Allen was drafted for the same reason.   If Allen succeeds  because of his legs, he will have failed.   

 

It's very simple.   When you take a QB #1 overall, or when you invest the draft capital in a guy like the Bills invested in Allen, barring injury or some other things, the day you draft him you expect him to be your presumptive starter in year 10.   You expect him to be a master QB who actually has just come into his prime.   He's 34, 35, he has 8-10 years experience, and he has a threat to beat anybody, any time.   That's what a franchise quarterback is.   If you're releasing the guy going into year his tenth year, he did not achieve what you drafted him for.   

 

Matt Ryan, taken third overall, is a successful draft pick.  I'm not a Ryan fan.   He makes a lot of plays, but he hasn't ever been the kind of guy who makes you worried when he has the ball with two minutes left in the game.   But whether I like him or not, he's been a success.   Why?  Because year after year, he's the presumptive starter.   No one ever says that the Falcons should be looking for another guy.   Maybe they should be, but year after year, when they look at the QB spot, the coaches aren't saying to themselves, "we need another guy."    

 

Newton hasn't been that guy for a few years, and that means the draft pick was a failure.   Nice player and all, but he didn't do what you drafted him for.  

 

Sure, Newton put some nice numbers here and there, and he went to a Super Bowl, but no one wants him today because he hasn't learned how to play QB at a high level.  

 

Dude you are so wrong on Newton.  Like it’s your worst stance on this board.  In his first 2 seasons, Newton averaged 31 passes/ game.  Allen averaged 27.9.  Newton ran 7.9 times a game.  Allen ran 7 times a game.  Essential they both ran once for every 4 throws.  Except when Newton threw it, he was much more successful.  So by your logic, Allen is a running qb.

 

in 2018, he completed 68% of his passes (monster improvement) and had a 22 td to 7 int ratio before he got hurt.  
 

so to recap.  Newton isn’t a winning qb despite having a better win % (including 8 straight losses when it is common knowledge he was hurt); was winning a Heisman in the SEC while Allen wasn’t making 1st or 2nd team in the MWC; setting rookie passing records while Allen is averaging under 200 passing yards per game (why don’t you say Allen is a running qb ?); and won a MVP/ got to a SB where his number 1 receiver was Ted Ginn.  Yet, Allen has higher upside than him??? I mean I hope that’s true but it’s based on completely nothing but Bills hope.  Of course, you’re the same guy I believe thinks Allen could be better than Big Ben so I’m glad you had a lot of drinks on Easter. ?

[FireChans]

On 4/9/2020 at 9:11 PM, jrober38 said:

 

The NFL is a copycat league. 

 

Eventually an NFL GM will start playing "money ball" with the QB position, have success and other GMs will follow along.

 

In a league where "top" starters get $35 mil a year and mediocre starters get $8-10 mil/year, despite there being hardly much of a difference between them.

 

Eventually teams will figure out that they're better off saving that extra $25 mil and using to sign another top player at a different position. 

Players who cost $25M generally don’t hit the market.

[C.Biscuit97]

15 minutes ago, Mango said:

 

I could have gotten behind this post if it was only the bolded. 

Except he was completely won about that.  Newton was playing at a MVP level and passing better than he ever has in 2018 and he got hurt.  

2 minutes ago, DuckyBoys said:

I think Cam was a success.  He carried that Panthers team.  Did he ever develop into a prototypical qb?  No he did not but as long as his body held up that combination of ability won a lot of football games.  I don't see Lamar being able to last as long as Cam did unless he does alter his playing style .  Lamar is Mike Vick except the Ravens were smart enough to incorporate an offense that highlights what he does well and minimizes what he is not good at .... yet.  Can Newton was unique in that his body type allowed for continued usage as a college option style qb in the nfl.  

 

I'm re-watching all of last years games for the 3rd time.  Seems each time I go back I see a different angle as far as the qb play and offense as a whole . 

 

 

The only thing I disagree about is Jackson is a much better passer than Vick. Vick had a cannon but was not close to as accurate as Jackson is.

[FireChans]

33 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I'm not saying Allen is better now than Newton ever was.  So even if it were true, which it isn't, that Newton's worst year outclassed his best year, it doesn't respond to what I said.   Check out 2014 and 2016.

 

The question is whether Newton was a successful pick.   He was drafted to be an all-round NFL QB, not a running QB.   It was said over and over again that he had to stop running so much and learn to play QB at an elite level.   That was his challenge from year two.   He couldn't do it, and he didn't do it.   Allen was drafted for the same reason.   If Allen succeeds  because of his legs, he will have failed.   

 

It's very simple.   When you take a QB #1 overall, or when you invest the draft capital in a guy like the Bills invested in Allen, barring injury or some other things, the day you draft him you expect him to be your presumptive starter in year 10.   You expect him to be a master QB who actually has just come into his prime.   He's 34, 35, he has 8-10 years experience, and he has a threat to beat anybody, any time.   That's what a franchise quarterback is.   If you're releasing the guy going into year his tenth year, he did not achieve what you drafted him for.   

 

Matt Ryan, taken third overall, is a successful draft pick.  I'm not a Ryan fan.   He makes a lot of plays, but he hasn't ever been the kind of guy who makes you worried when he has the ball with two minutes left in the game.   But whether I like him or not, he's been a success.   Why?  Because year after year, he's the presumptive starter.   No one ever says that the Falcons should be looking for another guy.   Maybe they should be, but year after year, when they look at the QB spot, the coaches aren't saying to themselves, "we need another guy."    

 

Newton hasn't been that guy for a few years, and that means the draft pick was a failure.   Nice player and all, but he didn't do what you drafted him for.  

 

Sure, Newton put some nice numbers here and there, and he went to a Super Bowl, but no one wants him today because he hasn't learned how to play QB at a high level.  

 

 Newton was a successful pick. Multiple ProBowls, All Pro, ROY, MVP, NFC Champion,  multiple winning seasons, playoff appearances etc.

 

Just because he didn’t play for 20 years doesn’t make him unsuccessful. Was Andrew Luck a bad pick because he randomly retired? 

[DuckyBoys]

2 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Except he was completely won about that.  Newton was playing at a MVP level and passing better than he ever has in 2018 and he got hurt.  

The only thing I disagree about is Jackson is a much better passer than Vick. Vick had a cannon but was not close to as accurate as Jackson is.

 

I don't think that is completely true.  The Falcons did not cater to Mike Vick's talents   They ran a typical offense and Vick just added to it with his rushing ability most of which was scrambles and not designed runs  I don't think either are great when it comes to traditional qb skills but Vick for sure had  incredible arm The Ravens went out and minimized the type of throws they ask of Lamar  They dont ask him to throw a lot to the outside deep or to throw into tight windows.  I havent watched every ravens game but what I did see I wasnt exactly wowed by lamar's passing

[C.Biscuit97]

1 minute ago, DuckyBoys said:

 

I don't think that is completely true.  The Falcons did not cater to Mike Vick's talents   They ran a typical offense and Vick just added to it with his rushing ability most of which was scrambles and not designed runs  I don't think either are great when it comes to traditional qb skills but Vick for sure had  incredible arm The Ravens went out and minimized the type of throws they ask of Lamar  They dont ask him to throw a lot to the outside deep or to throw into tight windows.  I havent watched every ravens game but what I did see I wasnt exactly wowed by lamar's passing

Agree to disagree.

[CardinalScotts]

win.

the buffalo bills don't belong to a fantasy league they don't award playoff victories off anything but wins

its something to talk about over a 16 game season vs this defense is that defense good ? these stats say yes well let me find something that says not really (wgr)

yes but this guy or that guy didn't play so....., yards don't matter , points don't matter, unless it's something to B word about then yards and/or points do matter. What did this team do against the bills them 4 months ago when it was 78 degrees and today is 12 with a 45 mile per hour wind. He's a talented young players who's been brought along perfectly and will continue to grow he has a playoff appearance under that belt in his first year as a full time starter.  

 

Lastly do we watch other qb's play?   9-10 year vets make terrible throws or don't pull the trigger on throws and they lose games because of it. They make poor decisions lose their mechanics force balls under pressure so why wouldn't he. Reminds me of parents who freak when junior chases a pitch face high. Do you watch big league players they chase bad pitches so why would the 11 year old kid? Allen is a young guy out of a small college who went JUCO before that, he's going to take LONGER like it or not. How do we lose sight of that? Guys coming from premium programs aren't ready to roll at 23 so why would he be? Joe Borrow will turn 24 this season in his rookie year out of a premium program

 

 

[FireChans]

The Cam Newton slander has reached insane levels. This akin to guys saying Peyton Manning sucked because he was trash his last season. His career was that of a good to great QB. Sure it would have been nice if he played longer. But if you think Carolina is looking back at the 2011 draft and saying, “Man I wish we drafted Julio and paired him with Jimmy Clausen,” you are an insane person.

[Billl]

28 minutes ago, BigBillsFan said:

 

Warren was worlds better from the pocket and played a long career. Jackson just produces more in his system because he's an amazing athlete. I can't imagine Jackson playing 4-5 years at this level. 2-3 if he's lucky. The dude was getting body-slammed from the front 7 of D's IF they got a hold of him. I've seen him picked up and slammed hard a few times with no flag.

Have you seen their pictures?  They’re basically twins.  Like Devito and Schwarzenegger.  Aaron Brooks, Lamar Jackson, Warren Moon, Michael Vick, Jamarcus Russel, Malcolm X...  They’re pretty much interchangeable as QBs.

[Straight Hucklebuck]

What we haven’t seen any Bills QB do in 15 years is break through the game manager type numbers 10 TDs - 24 TDs, 2500 yards - 3400 yards.

 

We’ve seen a lot of 180 yards, 1 TD, 1 Int type games, where not throwing picks is the most important attribute of a good game. 
 

Break out of that mode. 

 

 

[Shaw66]

25 minutes ago, FireChans said:

 Newton was a successful pick. Multiple ProBowls, All Pro, ROY, MVP, NFC Champion,  multiple winning seasons, playoff appearances etc.

 

Just because he didn’t play for 20 years doesn’t make him unsuccessful. Was Andrew Luck a bad pick because he randomly retired? 

Andrew Luck was an unsuccessful pick.  He wasn't a bad pick.  

 

You cant account  for career ending injury.  

 

 You cant be a franchise QB if you're employed after nine years.  You're supposed to be a top 10 QB, and Neqton isnt. 

[FireChans]

8 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Andrew Luck was an unsuccessful pick.  He wasn't a bad pick.  

 

You cant account  for career ending injury.  

 

 You cant be a franchise QB if you're employed after nine years.  You're supposed to be a top 10 QB, and Neqton isnt. 

Newton was a top 10 QB or close to it for much of his career.

 

Andrew Luck was a successful pick. 53-33 as a starter,  4 playoff wins, 4 Pro Bowls, CPOY. 

 

Your argument would imply that Matt Stafford was successful pick and Cam Newton  and Luck were not. And I like Stafford and think he’s criminally underrated and that’s STILL crazy.

Edited April 13, 2020 by FireChans

[Shaw66]

38 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Newton was a top 10 QB or close to it for much of his career.

 

 

His passer rating was in the top 10 once.  

 

Same as Tyrod Taylor.  

 

Nobody whose passer rating is consistently in the top 20 or 30, which is where he consistently was, is a top10 QB. 

[FireChans]

2 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

His passer rating was in the top 10 once.  

 

Same as Tyrod Taylor.  

 

Nobody whose passer rating is consistently in the top 20 or 30, which is where he consistently was, is a top10 QB. 

Passer rating is imperfect.  Josh Allen had a worse passer rating than Fitz, Goff, Murray, Jones, Minshew, Keemun, Carr and Brissett last year, good for 24th in the NFL. I’m guessing you don’t think all those dudes were better than Allen last year.

 

 

[billsfan_34]

On 3/23/2020 at 1:31 PM, longtimebillsfan said:

I am a Josh Allen fan.  I believe that he has the physical gifts to be a generational quarterback.  I also am aware of his weaknesses.

 

Now that Josh has one of the best trio starting wide receivers in the league, what does he have to do to show that he is the Bills franchise quarterback?

Try not to get your bell rung in the playoffs and run around like you just took 3 hits of acid. That right there still haunts me! 

[Shaw66]

1 hour ago, FireChans said:

Passer rating is imperfect.  Josh Allen had a worse passer rating than Fitz, Goff, Murray, Jones, Minshew, Keemun, Carr and Brissett last year, good for 24th in the NFL. I’m guessing you don’t think all those dudes were better than Allen last year.

 

 

All franchise QBs have passer ratings in the top 10 most years. Look em up..

[Billl]

34 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

All franchise QBs have passer ratings in the top 10 most years. Look em up..

Watson, Brady, Prescott, Rodgers, Ryan, Wentz... Not one was top 10.  Allen was 24th this season after being 32nd last season.

 

Think about what you’re saying.  There are probably 15 or so franchise QBs in the league.  They can’t all be in the top 10 most years.

 

Just for reference, from 2015-17 Tyrod ranked 8th, 18th, and 16th in Buffalo.  Orton was 19th the season prior.

Edited April 14, 2020 by Billl