Josh Allen "Prove it" Season In Year 3

[GoBills808]

Just now, Mango said:

Not a single QB below Allen on that list started 16 games. Brisset and Trubisky got close with 15. Mind you Brisset was their back up until right before the season started and was just replaced in Indy with Rivers. Chicago just traded for Foles for competition. Those are literally the best guys he was ahead of who had lots of playing time. You could throw in Darnold and Stafford but they only played 13 and 8 games respectively. 

 

 

 

'Started 16 games' eh

 

[Mango]

13 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

Mango

 

not a finished product but duel threat is duel threat and those tds absolutely need to be factored into production

 

if he throws for 2 and runs for 1 it still counts

I don’t disagree. But it has no value in a conversation about Allen improving as a passer. Just because he can run doesn’t mean that he doesn’t need to improve at the most important part of his position. Running well and tough doesn’t mean he can keep being doo doo at throwing the ball consistently. I think it’s a fair ask regardless of his production with his legs. 

[Dr. Who]

Just now, Mango said:

I don’t disagree. But it has no value in a conversation about Allen improving as a passer. Just because he can run doesn’t mean that he doesn’t need to improve at the most important part of his position. Running well and tough doesn’t mean he can keep being doo doo at throwing the ball consistently. I think it’s a fair ask regardless of his production with his legs. 

Does anyone think he doesn't need to improve as a passer?

[GoBills808]

18th in the league in Touchdowns per Attempt

 

but by all means keep going by TDs per game as if that has any predictive or qualitative value at all...because every QB throws the exact same amount of throws per game so it's totally logical stat to think up lmao

[Mango]

12 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

'Started 16 games' eh

 

Oh cool, you really got me, everything is invalid now. You’re so smart and I am just a dumb-dumb. The Jets game was trash. Lets just call it 15 and literally nothing changes about the point being made.  
 

Not a single QB below Allen on that list started 16 games. Brisset and Trubisky got close with 15 which is basically the same as Josh if you toss out the last Jets game. Mind you Brisset was their back up until right before the season started and was just replaced in Indy with Rivers. Chicago just traded for Foles for competition. Those are literally the best guys he was ahead of who had lots of playing time. You could throw in Darnold and Stafford but they only played 13 and 8 games respectively. 

Fixed it for you. 

7 minutes ago, Dr. Who said:

Does anyone think he doesn't need to improve as a passer?

It is totally possible I misunderstood the post from @John from Riverside. I just read it as, his production is fine because you have to consider his legs, when the OP was making a point to talk about passing/scoring efficiency with his arm in regards to contract extensions. 

Edited March 24, 2020 by Mango

[GoBills808]

2 minutes ago, Mango said:

Oh cool, you really got me, everything is invalid now. You’re so smart and I am just a dumb-dumb. The Jets game was trash. Lets just call it 15 and literally nothing changes about the point being made.  
 

Not a single QB below Allen on that list started 16 games. Brisset and Trubisky got close with 15 which is basically the same as Josh if you toss out the last Jets game. Mind you Brisset was their back up until right before the season started and was just replaced in Indy with Rivers. Chicago just traded for Foles for competition. Those are literally the best guys he was ahead of who had lots of playing time. You could throw in Darnold and Stafford but they only played 13 and 8 games respectively. 

Fixed it for you. 

Per attempt is how you look at QB stats objectively. Not even objectively lmao...just properly. Per attempt. So ***** simple if you understand statistics even a little.

 

Not per game.

 

Not per start.

 

 

[Mango]

5 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

 He was tied for 21st w/Murray and Fitz for TD passes.

 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2019/passing.htm

 

 

 

 

 

8 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Per attempt is how you look at QB stats objectively. Not even objectively lmao...just properly. Per attempt. So ***** simple if you understand statistics even a little.

 

Not per game.

 

Not per start.

 

 

Dude, my response was to YOUR POST. YOU gave the ranking and sourcing of T-21. Not me. I was speaking to YOUR point and giving it context. I even adjusted the post for you to say comparable games started. It literally changes nothing about the point.

 

Very unsure if you troll purposefully to get a reaction or if you are gaslighting. 

[John from Riverside]

21 minutes ago, Mango said:

Oh cool, you really got me, everything is invalid now. You’re so smart and I am just a dumb-dumb. The Jets game was trash. Lets just call it 15 and literally nothing changes about the point being made.  
 

Not a single QB below Allen on that list started 16 games. Brisset and Trubisky got close with 15 which is basically the same as Josh if you toss out the last Jets game. Mind you Brisset was their back up until right before the season started and was just replaced in Indy with Rivers. Chicago just traded for Foles for competition. Those are literally the best guys he was ahead of who had lots of playing time. You could throw in Darnold and Stafford but they only played 13 and 8 games respectively. 

Fixed it for you. 

It is totally possible I misunderstood the post from @John from Riverside. I just read it as, his production is fine because you have to consider his legs, when the OP was making a point to talk about passing/scoring efficiency with his arm in regards to contract extensions. 

Yeah you read it wrong 

no worries

[GoBills808]

7 minutes ago, Mango said:

 

Dude, my response was to YOUR POST. YOU gave the ranking and sourcing of T-21. Not me. I was speaking to YOUR point and giving it context. I even adjusted the post for you to say comparable games started. It literally changes nothing about the point.

 

Very unsure if you troll purposefully to get a reaction or if you are gaslighting. 

Oh, I'm supposed to feel sorry because you didn't read back far enough and responded to a post I made which itself was IN RESPONSE to someone saying Allen was 'bottom five in TDs thrown'?

 

Nah. Don't jump in if you can't follow the thread. Tired of explaining simple concepts...figure this ***** out on your own

[LSHMEAB]

37 minutes ago, Dr. Who said:

Does anyone think he doesn't need to improve as a passer?

There appears to be a few my friend. If it weren't for drops, he'd have been Marino, etc. 

 

What's interesting here is that the OP is one of the optimistic, reasonable posters on the board. He's getting ripped for asking a legit questions.

 

Josh was basically built in a lab to play the position, but he's got to get better at the read/recognize/RELEASE aspect of his game. Improved a good deal in short accuracy. Now he's gotta continue to improve on the aforementioned as well as deep ball accuracy.

 

The offense looks pretty solid. We saw stark improvement from year one to year two. The OP appears to want to see the same level of improvement in year 3. I suppose that's too much to ask for some.

[Big Gun]

3 hours ago, Chicken Boo said:

 

I never understand why fans get upset when facts are pointed out about Josh Allen?  He needs to get better.  Pretty obvious.

 

I don't dislike Josh.  My problem is with blind loyalists who don't demand more of our starting QB. 

 

I've been banging the drum to get him more weapons on offense for 2 seasons now.  I desperately wanted this team to draft Mercalf last year to pair with Josh.  I was all aboard "trading for Julio or Diggs" before they ever became realistic options.

 

I'm one of the very few on this board that wants Beane to sign a seasoned veteran RB, primarily for pass protection, to buy Josh more time in the pocket.

 

I'm rooting for the kid, but I also understand that he needs to improve.  I'm far from satisfied with his play.  He's on the right track but my standards are high.  Everyone's should be.

I dont understand this mindset. You admit he needs more weapons and better blocking up front but dis on him for not having great stats. Can't have it both ways. This kid is going to be a stud, you can see it happening, it's too bad if you cant because it is a thing of beauty to watch. He has it and I'm excited where this team is headed.

[GoBills808]

17 minutes ago, LSHMEAB said:

There appears to be a few my friend. If it weren't for drops, he'd have been Marino, etc. 

 

What's interesting here is that the OP is one of the optimistic, reasonable posters on the board. He's getting ripped for asking a legit questions.

 

Josh was basically built in a lab to play the position, but he's got to get better at the read/recognize/RELEASE aspect of his game. Improved a good deal in short accuracy. Now he's gotta continue to improve on the aforementioned as well as deep ball accuracy.

 

The offense looks pretty solid. We saw stark improvement from year one to year two. The OP appears to want to see the same level of improvement in year 3. I suppose that's too much to ask for some.

I'm the one who brought up drops so I'll assume you're referring to me. Go be a big boy and find where I said Allen would have been Marino without them.

[LSHMEAB]

2 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

I'm the one who brought up drops so I'll assume you're referring to me. Go be a big boy and find where I said Allen would have been Marino without them.

It was hyperbole.

 

We can go through every number in the world, but the bottom line is that A) Josh needs to improve and B)the supporting cast is vastly improved.

 

JA was much better in year 2 than year 1. Allen should be much(I'm sure you'll quibble with that word, which is fine) in year 3. 

 

I really can't even fathom why this would be "controversial" or elicit some of the responses I've seen.

[John from Riverside]

29 minutes ago, LSHMEAB said:

There appears to be a few my friend. If it weren't for drops, he'd have been Marino, etc. 

 

What's interesting here is that the OP is one of the optimistic, reasonable posters on the board. He's getting ripped for asking a legit questions.

 

Josh was basically built in a lab to play the position, but he's got to get better at the read/recognize/RELEASE aspect of his game. Improved a good deal in short accuracy. Now he's gotta continue to improve on the aforementioned as well as deep ball accuracy.

 

The offense looks pretty solid. We saw stark improvement from year one to year two. The OP appears to want to see the same level of improvement in year 3. I suppose that's too much to ask for some.

Is there any reason why you have to bring up a legend like Marino when trying to make an evaluation of josh Allen?

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, LSHMEAB said:

It was hyperbole.

 

We can go through every number in the world, but the bottom line is that A) Josh needs to improve and B)the supporting cast is vastly improved.

 

JA was much better in year 2 than year 1. Allen should be much(I'm sure you'll quibble with that word, which is fine) in year 3. 

 

I really can't even fathom why this would be "controversial" or elicit some of the responses I've seen.

Like I said...go read through the thread. The only hyperbole I've seen is the stuff saying how bad he is, and it's not even hyperbole, it's just flat out incorrect. 

 

There isn't a single person who will say he doesn't need to improve. I literally wrote earlier 'of course he needs to improve' verbatim. The responses you find so objectionable are just me and a couple others laughing at people who can't read charts and say 'Allen is a bottom five QB' and then can't find any stats to back that claim up so they go ahead and invent one. 

 

You feel compelled to defend that, knock yourself out.

[LSHMEAB]

1 minute ago, GoBills808 said:

Like I said...go read through the thread. The only hyperbole I've seen is the stuff saying how bad he is, and it's not even hyperbole, it's just flat out incorrect. 

 

There isn't a single person who will say he doesn't need to improve. I literally wrote earlier 'of course he needs to improve' verbatim. The responses you find so objectionable are just me and a couple others laughing at people who can't read charts and say 'Allen is a bottom five QB' and then can't find any stats to back that claim up so they go ahead and invent one. 

 

You feel compelled to defend that, knock yourself out.

Your first post in the thread was literally "prove what?"

 

My response would be that he needs to prove he's a top 10-15 passer. He's not bottom 5. That much is true. But some of us would like to see proof that he's going to take that next step.

 

What's the problem with the OP's take?

[White Linen]

1 hour ago, Mango said:

That was my post. 
 

There are 10 teams drafting after us. So we are not top 10. We averaged 19 points a game last year. We are top 5 on the defensive side of the ball. The only thing keeping us out of being in the upper echelon conversation is offensive efficiency, consistency, and scoring. If we don’t do that, we will continue to be on the outside of that conversation. 

 

The Dolphins draft after us.  They were better?  

 

So you go by how many teams are after us vs our 2019 finish?

 

The conversation is already over.  We were a top 10 team last year.

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, LSHMEAB said:

Your first post in the thread was literally "prove what?"

 

My response would be that he needs to prove he's a top 10-15 passer. He's not bottom 5. That much is true. But some of us would like to see proof that he's going to take that next step.

 

What's the problem with the OP's take?

It's ambiguous to a fault. 'Franchise QB' is nebulous and is an argument in and of itself. And the concept that this particular season represents some make or break point for Allen and his future with the team, based on arbitrary (and still undefined) statistical analysis is just gibberish. 

 

He's proven he can be QB of a playoff team. He's proven he can improve areas of his game that are weak. The only thing he needs to 'prove' is that he can continue an upward trajectory, not hit random benchmarks that will 'prove he's made it' to appease whoever thinks that way. I'm comfortable enough he will and if he doesn't it'll be addressed one way or another by the staff. 

 

My issue (initially) was with the concept that this season will determine Allen's future as measured by various random QB stats. Then I just got annoyed by people who clearly didn't know what they were talking about.

[Lieutenant Aldo Raine]

Crazy how everyone doesn’t even touch on his other intangibles that separates him from just a few others.  Such as his escapability, toughness, ability to extend plays and pick up first downs.  And what about 3rd or 4th and a yard.   It’s about as guaranteed as you can get.  He’s exciting and brings an element of surprise to the position (both good and bad at times), but it’s fun.  Buffalo is getting a lot more national exposure nowadays because how exciting this team is, it’s awesome.  And Josh Allen is a big part of that whether you like it (or him) or not!  

[longtimebillsfan]

8 minutes ago, Lieutenant Aldo Raine said:

Crazy how everyone doesn’t even touch on his other intangibles that separates him from just a few others.  Such as his escapability, toughness, ability to extend plays and pick up first downs.  And what about 3rd or 4th and a yard.   It’s about as guaranteed as you can get.  He’s exciting and brings an element of surprise to the position (both good and bad at times), but it’s fun.  Buffalo is getting a lot more national exposure nowadays because how exciting this team is, it’s awesome.  And Josh Allen is a big part of that whether you like it (or him) or not!  

Another thing that is not mentioned enough is that he wins.  His 4th quarter comebacks really show his toughness and his unwillingness to accept defeat.  His stats will improve.   Give me a winning quarterback over one that generates gaudy stats any day.