Josh Allen "Prove it" Season In Year 3

[GunnerBill]

3 minutes ago, Bangarang said:

Who’s whining? I haven’t read the entire thread but the last several pages have been a civil discussion. 
 

And now you’re admitting to being a troll..

 

Trolling is okay if you are a pro-Bills troll. Dem's the rules.

[Lieutenant Aldo Raine]

9 minutes ago, Bangarang said:

Who’s whining? I haven’t read the entire thread but the last several pages have been a civil discussion. 
 

And now you’re admitting to being a troll..

 

I'm a troll if I rebuttal all the doubters; they should just be allowed to spit their criticisms about Josh Allen without any kind of retort?  Okay, aren't you the one who just said that's what this place is for?  Let me guess, your 11,000 posts gives you authority around these parts?  @jrober38 is a constant critic of Josh Allen, some warranted and some just plain ol whining.  I've engaged with him many times, this is hardly the first time.  

[GoBills808]

2 minutes ago, Lieutenant Aldo Raine said:

 

I'm a troll if I rebuttal all the doubters; they should just be allowed to spit their criticisms about Josh Allen without any kind of retort?  Okay, aren't you the one who just said that's what this place is for?  Let me guess, your 11,000 posts gives you authority around these parts?  @jrober38 is a constant critic of Josh Allen, some warranted and some just plain ol whining.  I've engaged with him many times, this is hardly the first time.  

Don't waste your breath

 

^^^already made up their minds on Allen

[Straight Hucklebuck]

51 minutes ago, Lieutenant Aldo Raine said:

 

Like I said, whine all you want on this board...get it off your chest.  I enjoy poking back at all you doubters.

 

But what ammo do you really have? 

 

Allen finished 30th in passing yards per game, tied for 21st in TD passes, 25th in average, 24th in QBR, 19th in Rating, 32nd in completion percentage, and his offense scored 19 ppg, good for 23rd in the league. 

 

What fans generally have is, he's young, he's raw, his weapons aren't good enough. 

 

But keep in mind, the Bills had a defense that finished 2nd in points allowed at 16.2, and played what turned out to be a easy schedule. 

 

So yes, there was improvement, and yes the Bills did make the Playoffs. But it's pretty clear that Allen must improve in 2020, because the defense is only going to play at this level for a finite amount of time. The Seahawks, who led the league in defensive points against for 4-5 years in a row are an outlier. 

Edited April 15, 2020 by Straight Hucklebuck

[Shaw66]

46 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

Shaw66 - One of the things that needs to be stated is, if this isn't a make or break year in your mind for Allen, and it can be further down the road in 2021 or beyond, then the assumption being made is that the defense continues to be near the top of the league in points per game allowed. 

 

Because if Allen stats plateau around 3,000 yards, 20 TDs and 60% completion, then the assumption I'm making is we aren't scoring many more points. So the game flow has to go the same way, tight 19-16 wins. 

 

But that's another year on Hyde, Poyer, another year older for Hughes, Addison, and the Bills will need to extend Tre and keep Milano. 

 

So that's why I can't justify a throwaway year for Allen. He needs to get better relative to the league, not just his rookie self. We're past measuring him against the raw prospect he was. The investment has been made, the defense is good right now.  

 

I think you, most posters here, and most fans generally are mired in this way of thinking.     What's wrong with it is that it is not how Beane is thinking about it, it's not how McDermott is thinking about it, it's not how Belichick is thinking about it.   Their goal is to build a program that wins a lot of football games, year after year.   From week to week, their goal is to play good football in the upcoming game.  Their goals don't change depending on whether they have a good QB or a bad one, or whether they have a good defense or bad one.  So their goal is NOT to build a winning offense in a hurry, just because they happen to have a good defense this season.    They EXPECT to have a good defense every season, so they aren't in a hurry.   They EXPECT to have a good offense every season, so this season isn't going to make them make short-term decision.

 

Each decision is based on what's going to have the best long-term impact on the quality of the football the team plays.  In terms of player personnel decisions, there is only one player at one position who can have a major long-term impact on the quality of the football - football.   You get the right guy at quarterback, you can have a quality football team for ten or fifteen years.   You can't say that about any other position.   Get JJ Watt or Polamalu or Jason Peters or Adrian Peterson, none of them assure you the long-term impact that Brady and Favre and Brees do.   

 

If the conclusion of the analysis the Bills do in their process is that Allen has the potential to be great, if the Bills see what they think is a path to making him great, they are NOT going to conclude they need a new guy.   They aren't.   Will they start thinking about investing a second or third round pick in a QB?    Maybe, probably certainly if he isn't producing better in 2021 than he did in 2019.   But they won't give up him, because they're in it for the long-term, and Allen still has a lot of football to play.   

 

And don't demean yourself by referencing Edwards, Fitzpatrick and Taylor.   They're just three of thousands of quarterbacks who didn't have all the tools necessary to play the game at a really high level, and you know it.   Allen has all the tools; he just hasn't played at a high level.    Just because Allen hasn't done it doesn't mean he won't do it.   There is no football law to that point.   Young didn't do it out of the box, Elway didn't do it out of the box.   Each player is unique.  

 

Put another way, your team can recover from all kinds of personnel mistakes, but there's only one kind of mistake that affects your team for a decade - letting a franchise QB get away.   That has long-term consequences.   McBeane have told us over and over that they're in this for the long-term, and they are not going to make a long-term mistake by getting rid of a QB who doesn't meet short-term goals, especially goals established by the fans.  

[FireChans]

4 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I think you, most posters here, and most fans generally are mired in this way of thinking.     What's wrong with it is that it is not how Beane is thinking about it, it's not how McDermott is thinking about it, it's not how Belichick is thinking about it.   Their goal is to build a program that wins a lot of football games, year after year.   From week to week, their goal is to play good football in the upcoming game.  Their goals don't change depending on whether they have a good QB or a bad one, or whether they have a good defense or bad one.  So their goal is NOT to build a winning offense in a hurry, just because they happen to have a good defense this season.    They EXPECT to have a good defense every season, so they aren't in a hurry.   They EXPECT to have a good offense every season, so this season isn't going to make them make short-term decision.

 

Each decision is based on what's going to have the best long-term impact on the quality of the football the team plays.  In terms of player personnel decisions, there is only one player at one position who can have a major long-term impact on the quality of the football - football.   You get the right guy at quarterback, you can have a quality football team for ten or fifteen years.   You can't say that about any other position.   Get JJ Watt or Polamalu or Jason Peters or Adrian Peterson, none of them assure you the long-term impact that Brady and Favre and Brees do.   

 

If the conclusion of the analysis the Bills do in their process is that Allen has the potential to be great, if the Bills see what they think is a path to making him great, they are NOT going to conclude they need a new guy.   They aren't.   Will they start thinking about investing a second or third round pick in a QB?    Maybe, probably certainly if he isn't producing better in 2021 than he did in 2019.   But they won't give up him, because they're in it for the long-term, and Allen still has a lot of football to play.   

 

And don't demean yourself by referencing Edwards, Fitzpatrick and Taylor.   They're just three of thousands of quarterbacks who didn't have all the tools necessary to play the game at a really high level, and you know it.   Allen has all the tools; he just hasn't played at a high level.    Just because Allen hasn't done it doesn't mean he won't do it.   There is no football law to that point.   Young didn't do it out of the box, Elway didn't do it out of the box.   Each player is unique.  

 

Put another way, your team can recover from all kinds of personnel mistakes, but there's only one kind of mistake that affects your team for a decade - letting a franchise QB get away.   That has long-term consequences.   McBeane have told us over and over that they're in this for the long-term, and they are not going to make a long-term mistake by getting rid of a QB who doesn't meet short-term goals, especially goals established by the fans.  

So here would be the question. If Josh doesn’t take another step forward next year, you don’t think Beane and co start reevaluating the QB position and start scouting next years class a little harder? 

 

I think they do. As they should. 

 

As for offensive expectations, “not hurrying” to have a good offense has resulted in 3 years of bad offense. When do they start feeling more urgency on that point?

 

If Allen turns out to be a franchise QB, no one should be worried about letting him get away. It’s the converse, hanging onto a guy who isn’t a franchise QB without a back up plan, which is the real danger. It’s drafting EJM in 2013, and waiting 5 years to draft another QB that’s the real time waster.

[Straight Hucklebuck]

2 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I think you, most posters here, and most fans generally are mired in this way of thinking.     What's wrong with it is that it is not how Beane is thinking about it, it's not how McDermott is thinking about it, it's not how Belichick is thinking about it.   Their goal is to build a program that wins a lot of football games, year after year.   From week to week, their goal is to play good football in the upcoming game.  Their goals don't change depending on whether they have a good QB or a bad one, or whether they have a good defense or bad one.  So their goal is NOT to build a winning offense in a hurry, just because they happen to have a good defense this season.    They EXPECT to have a good defense every season, so they aren't in a hurry.   They EXPECT to have a good offense every season, so this season isn't going to make them make short-term decision.

 

Each decision is based on what's going to have the best long-term impact on the quality of the football the team plays.  In terms of player personnel decisions, there is only one player at one position who can have a major long-term impact on the quality of the football - football.   You get the right guy at quarterback, you can have a quality football team for ten or fifteen years.   You can't say that about any other position.   Get JJ Watt or Polamalu or Jason Peters or Adrian Peterson, none of them assure you the long-term impact that Brady and Favre and Brees do.   

 

If the conclusion of the analysis the Bills do in their process is that Allen has the potential to be great, if the Bills see what they think is a path to making him great, they are NOT going to conclude they need a new guy.   They aren't.   Will they start thinking about investing a second or third round pick in a QB?    Maybe, probably certainly if he isn't producing better in 2021 than he did in 2019.   But they won't give up him, because they're in it for the long-term, and Allen still has a lot of football to play.   

 

And don't demean yourself by referencing Edwards, Fitzpatrick and Taylor.   They're just three of thousands of quarterbacks who didn't have all the tools necessary to play the game at a really high level, and you know it.   Allen has all the tools; he just hasn't played at a high level.    Just because Allen hasn't done it doesn't mean he won't do it.   There is no football law to that point.   Young didn't do it out of the box, Elway didn't do it out of the box.   Each player is unique.  

 

Put another way, your team can recover from all kinds of personnel mistakes, but there's only one kind of mistake that affects your team for a decade - letting a franchise QB get away.   That has long-term consequences.   McBeane have told us over and over that they're in this for the long-term, and they are not going to make a long-term mistake by getting rid of a QB who doesn't meet short-term goals, especially goals established by the fans.  

 

I agree with all this. Beane and McDermott have built their culture, hand selected Allen for his tools, leadership, etc. 

 

But ...

 

Aren't these the same Football Men/Coaches who tell the fans the following all the time:

 

1. The Jump from Year 1 to Year 2

2. Taking all the reps in OTAs

3. Not looking over your shoulder in Training Camp

4. Continuity with the OC, QB Coach and scheme

5. Gelling with the offensive line

6. Getting more weapons

7. Seeing the same team multiple times

8. Playing a full 16 games

9. Can't evaluate a draft until 3 years 

10. Hitting an NFL weight room

11. Reviewing the tape and correcting mistakes

12. Supporting with a strong running game 

13. Don't want to take away aggressiveness by over emphasizing turnovers

14. Respect the football 

 

The Bills have provided all of these things, to go with a defense that gives the Bills offense chances. 

 

As far as Trent, Fitzpatrick, Taylor, I mention them because the conversations among fans sound the same. More time in the system, need better weapons, needs a better line, needs Coaches who don't overemphasize turnovers. 

 

The Bills have nothing behind Allen, and nothing in the pipeline. He has to work. But I remain unconvinced that 2020 can look like 2019 without loss of some faith in Allen by Bills fans and the FO. 

 

The Bills just traded the 1st Round pick to help Allen more. If it doesn't happen in Year 3, then it doesn't mean it won't happen in Year 4, but I don't see anyway that the statistics on a sudden uptick would increase. 

[GoBills808]

19 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

 

But what ammo do you really have? 

 

Allen finished 30th in passing yards per game, tied for 21st in TD passes, 25th in average, 24th in QBR, 19th in Rating, 32nd in completion percentage, and his offense scored 19 ppg, good for 23rd in the league. 

 

What fans generally have is, he's young, he's raw, his weapons aren't good enough. 

 

But keep in mind, the Bills had a defense that finished 2nd in points allowed at 16.2, and played what turned out to be a easy schedule. 

 

So yes, there was improvement, and yes the Bills did make the Playoffs. But it's pretty clear that Allen must improve in 2020, because the defense is only going to play at this level for a finite amount of time. The Seahawks, who led the league in defensive points against for 4-5 years in a row are an outlier. 

Yeah we're just doomed

 

time to pack it in hoss

[GunnerBill]

14 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

 

Put another way, your team can recover from all kinds of personnel mistakes, but there's only one kind of mistake that affects your team for a decade - letting a franchise QB get away.   That has long-term consequences.   McBeane have told us over and over that they're in this for the long-term, and they are not going to make a long-term mistake by getting rid of a QB who doesn't meet short-term goals, especially goals established by the fans.  

 

For sure they are not going to take short term decisions. But they will at a point in the next two years have to take a long term decision on Josh Allen. And by that point he will have to have shown them more than he has to this point. If he hasn't they will have to think about moving on. Because belief doesn't cut the cheques. Because while you believe Allen is bound to turn into an elite QB down the road the Bills can't afford to take that on trust. He has to improve. 

[Straight Hucklebuck]

We see the Allen that handled the Cowboys on Thanksgiving more often? I feel much better. 

 

We see Josh Allen against the Titans, where the Bills have to hang on for dear life more often? I'm looking for playmakers, elsewhere on the offense and at QB. 

[Lieutenant Aldo Raine]

26 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

 

But what ammo do you really have? 

 

Allen finished 30th in passing yards per game, tied for 21st in TD passes, 25th in average, 24th in QBR, 19th in Rating, 32nd in completion percentage, and his offense scored 19 ppg, good for 23rd in the league. 

 

What fans generally have is, he's young, he's raw, his weapons aren't good enough. 

 

But keep in mind, the Bills had a defense that allowed 16.2 ppg, and played what turned out to be a easy schedule. 

 

So yes, there was improvement, and yes the Bills did make the Playoffs. But it's pretty clear that Allen must improve in 2020, because the defense is only going to play at this level for a finite amount of time. The Seahawks, who led the league in defensive points against for 4-5 years in a row are an outlier. 

 

I am not arguing your stats and criticism thereof.  However, you never seem to account for his all-purpose yards and TDs, because let me let you in on something...Yards = Yards.  You never mention how in short yardage, it's almost a gimme; you never seem to credit the 4th QTR and game winning drives in a short career so far;  you hardly criticize Oline play for the mindless penalties putting us into long field position, you never seem to credit when you are in third and long, we at least have a better chance at converting; you never seem to credit leadership, accountability.  Lastly, as with many of you doubters, you don't know his story.  He has been doubted his entire life, yet here he is.  Maybe he will finally flounder at this level so you all can rejoice in your criticism.  With who Allen had last year, where was he going to get his mythical 300 yards from?  Beasley has a career average of 34 yards per game (he averaged 51 with Allen last year); John Brown has a career average of 49 yards per game (he averaged 70 with Allen last year).  So if we are lucky, on a good day together they would average 150 yds.   We need more production from other players such as TEs and RBs.  So while yes his numbers aren't up to par per say, let's not act like his weapons are superior.    

Edited April 15, 2020 by Lieutenant Aldo Raine

[Straight Hucklebuck]

Just now, GoBills808 said:

Yeah we're just doomed

 

time to pack it in hoss

 

Not at all. Beane understands this. 

 

Outside of some nostalgia for veterans past their prime, Beane was correct on Dareus, correct on Watkins, has improved the skill position players (from the disastrous 2018 which he admitted), the offensive line is better and deeper, he hit on Milano and Edmunds and so forth. 

 

He has doubled down on getting Allen help by trading for Diggs in his prime with contract. 

 

So its not doom and gloom, the reality is the team is ready to win and needs Allen to lead from the front. It shouldn't be all on the defense to not allow more than 16 ppg so that the Bills can win 17-16. 

 

Allen did show improvement, but to the OP, 2020 is a huge year, not a throwaway year. 

[Bangarang]

36 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Don't waste your breath

 

^^^already made up their minds on Allen

Oh stop it with this nonsense.
 

[GoBills808]

Just now, Straight Hucklebuck said:

 

Not at all. Beane understands this. 

 

Outside of some nostalgia for veterans past their prime, Beane was correct on Dareus, correct on Watkins, has improved the skill position players (from the disastrous 2018 which he admitted), the offensive line is better and deeper, he hit on Milano and Edmunds and so forth. 

 

He has doubled down on getting Allen help by trading for Diggs in his prime with contract. 

 

So its not doom and gloom, the reality is the team is ready to win and needs Allen to lead from the front. It shouldn't be all on the defense to not allow more than 16 ppg so that the Bills can win 17-16. 

 

Allen did show improvement, but to the OP, 2020 is a huge year, not a throwaway year. 

Your analysis astounds.

 

'Doubling down' by getting a WR1 for your developing QB. And calling Milano a 'hit' . That's...revealing.

Just now, Bangarang said:

Oh stop it with this nonsense.
 

You deny it?

[Bangarang]

41 minutes ago, Lieutenant Aldo Raine said:

 

I'm a troll if I rebuttal all the doubters; they should just be allowed to spit their criticisms about Josh Allen without any kind of retort?  Okay, aren't you the one who just said that's what this place is for?  Let me guess, your 11,000 posts gives you authority around these parts?  @jrober38 is a constant critic of Josh Allen, some warranted and some just plain ol whining.  I've engaged with him many times, this is hardly the first time.  

You’re a troll if you say people are whining rather than give an actual response with some thought to it. This has been a pretty civil discussion considering topics about Allen usually turn to garbage. Why bother picking a fight and dragging it down?

2 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Your analysis astounds.

 

'Doubling down' by getting a WR1 for your developing QB. And calling Milano a 'hit' . That's...revealing.

You deny it?

Do I deny that I’ve made up my mind on Allen? Yes.  

[oldmanfan]

1 minute ago, Bangarang said:

Oh stop it with this nonsense.
 

But you know that’s true.  Anyone in the board the last couple years knows that.

 

I have said this past week it’s 70:30 Allen winds up our long term guy.  He has played two years and improved year 2 over year one.  The underlying assumption of this thread and many of the posts herein is that he won’t continue improving with no reason to think so.  Why is that?  Simple question that no one seems to want to answer.

[Straight Hucklebuck]

2 minutes ago, Lieutenant Aldo Raine said:

 

I am not arguing your stats and criticism thereof.  However, you never seem to account for his all-purpose yards and TDs, because let me let you in on something...Yards = Yards.  You never mention how in short yardage, it's almost a gimme; you never seem to credit the 4th QTR and game winning drives in a short career so far;  you hardly criticize Oline play for the mindless penalties putting us into long field position, you never seem to credit when you are in third and long, we at least have a better chance at converting; you never seem to credit leadership, accountability.  Lastly, as with many of you doubters, you don't know his story.  He has been doubted his entire life, yet here he is.  Maybe he will finally flounder at this level so you all can rejoice in your criticism.  With who Allen had last year, where was he going to get his mythical 300 yards from?  Beasley has a career average of 34 yards per game (he averaged 51 with Allen last year); John Brown has a career average of 49 yards per game (he averaged 70 with Allen last year).  So if we are lucky, on a good day together they would average 150 yds.   We need more production from other players such as TEs and RBs.  So while yes his numbers aren't up to par per say, let's not act like he weapons are superior.    

 

Nobody will rejoice when he flounders. That's a classic embellishment to try and get a rise, nobody said that. By the way Carson Wentz threw for 27 TDs and 7 Ints with practice squad WR's and two NFL Tight Ends. 

 

In 2020, if the Bills offense averages 28 ppg and Allen throws for over 4,000 yards! Heck yeah, that's what we all want, all fans would love that. A dominant Bills offense for the first time since the 1990's? Yes.  

 

I'm not saying get the hook, Allen is the guy, go get it. I'm just saying I don't want to hear he's raw, he's young, he played at Wyoming. We're past the jump from Year 1 to Year 2 and all of that. He has the weapons now, there is no Tom the Terrible in division anymore, the Jets have no offensive weapons, and the Dolphins are trying to cash in draft picks. 

 

 

 

 

[Lieutenant Aldo Raine]

Okay @Bangarang. I'm a troll because you and your 11000 posts said so.  I've been around long enough to know you too doubted Josh before you slowly came around.  I've read your posts, and back then you had your mind made up just as @GoBills808 stated, but then you started to change your mind.  Since you also want to bring the discussion down and call me a troll, perhaps you should become a moderator and then you CAN CONTROL everyone's opinions.  

Edited April 15, 2020 by Lieutenant Aldo Raine

[Straight Hucklebuck]

8 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Your analysis astounds.

 

'Doubling down' by getting a WR1 for your developing QB. And calling Milano a 'hit' . That's...revealing.

You deny it?

 

Beane is doing the right things. 

 

McDermott is conservative and maddening sometimes with his love for ex-Panthers and veterans, but he's steady. 

 

I guess my point was the GM is adding talent all over this team. 

 

They need Allen now. 

 

2018 - He played exactly like his Scouting Reports said he would

 

2019 - He played on the positive side of those Scouting Reports 

 

2020 - He should break out of the game manager mode and start the climb up the ranks

[GoBills808]

8 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

 

Nobody will rejoice when he flounders. That's a classic embellishment to try and get a rise, nobody said that. 

Any moderator or regular Sunday/Monday poster can confirm traffic here is WAY higher after a bad Allen game than a good one or a win.

 

There is a contingent banking on Allen failing. It's indisputable.

Edited April 15, 2020 by GoBills808
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