Buffalo716 Posted March 31, 2020 Posted March 31, 2020 3 minutes ago, MassHog said: More than you'd like? The guy threw at a 76.3% completion percentage. Clearly he is making the throws Yea inside the numbers. He had lots of balls nosedive outside the hashes. I watched every throw Besides the all time NCAA completion list is riddled with guys who never did anything in the pros I can't think of one top prospect with as little arm strength of Burrow off my head. I'm talking legit top 5 prospect Urban said while at Ohio State, he threw like a girl. He was never starting at OSU 1
JohnC Posted March 31, 2020 Posted March 31, 2020 3 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said: Yea inside the numbers. He had lots of balls nosedive outside the hashes. I watched every throw Besides the all time NCAA completion list is riddled with guys who never did anything in the pros I can't think of one top prospect with as little arm strength of Burrow off my head. I'm talking legit top 5 prospect Urban said while at Ohio State, he threw like a girl. He was never starting at OSU Haskins beat out Burrow so he transferred. But that doesn't mean that Burrow is an inferior prospect compared to Haskins. Burrow doesn't have the arm strength of Haskins or a lot of other prior prospects but he does have the ability to make reads and accurately throw the ball. Most draft analysts have Burrow as the #1 qb prospect and Tua as the #2. Bucky Brooks rates Tua as the #1 qb prospect in this class. This is the time of year where all prospects get over analyzed. No prospect is perfect. But as the first qb off the board he is worthy of that lofty distinction. That doesn't necessarily mean that he will be the most successful qb out of this draft but that might be more due to the organization he goes to and the support system he has to work with. 1
Buffalo716 Posted March 31, 2020 Posted March 31, 2020 2 minutes ago, JohnC said: Haskins beat out Burrow so he transferred. But that doesn't mean that Burrow is an inferior prospect compared to Haskins. Burrow doesn't have the arm strength of Haskins or a lot of other prior prospects but he does have the ability to make reads and accurately throw the ball. Most draft analysts have Burrow as the #1 qb prospect and Tua as the #2. Bucky Brooks rates Tua as the #1 qb prospect in this class. This is the time of year where all prospects get over analyzed. No prospect is perfect. But as the first qb off the board he is worthy of that lofty distinction. That doesn't necessarily mean that he will be the most successful qb out of this draft but that might be more due to the organization he goes to and the support system he has to work with. Those are well thought-out points and yes it doesn't mean he's necessarily inferior to Haskins, but it clearly does show that he's not some world-class prospect He's a good prospect with some nice traits that can flourish in the right system
JohnC Posted April 1, 2020 Posted April 1, 2020 1 minute ago, Buffalo716 said: Those are well thought-out points and yes it doesn't mean he's necessarily inferior to Haskins, but it clearly does show that he's not some world-class prospect He's a good prospect with some nice traits that can flourish in the right system You hit the nail on the head with your last sentence. But that qualifier applies to every drafted qb. Andrew Luck was by many accounts one of the highest rated qbs coming out of college since Elway. The expectations were so high that the Colts pushed out Peyton, a future HOF qb. So instead of making it a point of emphasis to build a credible OL to protect him (their franchise saving investment) their GM patched together a mediocre line that got their qb battered. The point is obvious here. If you are going to make a major investment you need to put that qb in a position to succeed.
Buffalo716 Posted April 1, 2020 Posted April 1, 2020 7 minutes ago, JohnC said: You hit the nail on the head with your last sentence. But that qualifier applies to every drafted qb. Andrew Luck was by many accounts one of the highest rated qbs coming out of college since Elway. The expectations were so high that the Colts pushed out Peyton, a future HOF qb. So instead of making it a point of emphasis to build a credible OL to protect him (their franchise saving investment) their GM patched together a mediocre line that got their qb battered. The point is obvious here. If you are going to make a major investment you need to put that qb in a position to succeed. For sure but Andrew Luck could play in any system. I don't think the same about Mr Burrow But the point is the same, you need to surround your Young QB with talent to help him grow
JohnC Posted April 1, 2020 Posted April 1, 2020 Just now, Buffalo716 said: For sure but Andrew Luck could play in any system. I don't think the same about Mr Burrow But the point is the same, you need to surround your Young QB with talent to help him grow I never understood the system argument as a reason to denigrate/diminish a qb. Tom Brady and Brees are to an extent system qbs. Athletically, they are more limited than a lot of qbs from a mobility and arm strength standpoints. Yet both are longstanding great qbs. Burrow playing with the dinosaur OC two years ago was a far different qb compared to last year with a younger and more enlightened OC. The issue for a coach at any position is to put the player in a position to emphasize his strengths and minimize his weaknesses.
Buffalo716 Posted April 1, 2020 Posted April 1, 2020 11 minutes ago, JohnC said: I never understood the system argument as a reason to denigrate/diminish a qb. Tom Brady and Brees are to an extent system qbs. Athletically, they are more limited than a lot of qbs from a mobility and arm strength standpoints. Yet both are longstanding great qbs. Burrow playing with the dinosaur OC two years ago was a far different qb compared to last year with a younger and more enlightened OC. The issue for a coach at any position is to put the player in a position to emphasize his strengths and minimize his weaknesses. Yes but unfortunately in football it isn't so clear cut Football coaches spend a lifetime perfecting and building their scheme. Very few guys can transcend all them Brady and Brees got their match made in heaven. It is unclear if Burrow will
JohnC Posted April 1, 2020 Posted April 1, 2020 1 minute ago, Buffalo716 said: Yes but unfortunately in football it isn't so clear cut Football coaches spend a lifetime perfecting and building their scheme. Very few guys can transcend all them Brady and Brees got their match made in heaven. It is unclear if Burrow will I agree that few players can transcend all of the various systems. But that's my point. There shouldn't be a need to. What distinguishes the good coaches from the mediocre ones are their ability to adapt to the players they have on hand. I really don't believe in the concept of perfecting a scheme (as you state it) because the opposition is constantly adjusting to what you do and you don't always have all your players perfectly fit your ingrained scheme. The ability to constantly adjust to the changing nature of the game because of the changing rules makes it an imperative to be flexible. The bottom line is production. If a limited player is more productive in a more suited scheme than the more talented player then the limited player is the better player.
Buffalo716 Posted April 1, 2020 Posted April 1, 2020 5 minutes ago, JohnC said: I agree that few players can transcend all of the various systems. But that's my point. There shouldn't be a need to. What distinguishes the good coaches from the mediocre ones are their ability to adapt to the players they have on hand. I really don't believe in the concept of perfecting a scheme (as you state it) because the opposition is constantly adjusting to what you do and you don't always have all your players perfectly fit your ingrained scheme. The ability to constantly adjust to the changing nature of the game because of the changing rules makes it an imperative to be flexible. The bottom line is production. If a limited player is more productive in a more suited scheme than the more talented player then the limited player is the better player. Of course the best coaches are always adjusting but very few change their scheme they've been working on their whole life You will never see McDermott run a 34 attacking man defense. Just like Rex forced his 34 hybrid here Burrow will need to go to a spread offense for his game to take off in the NFL. Stick him under center and he won't last
JohnC Posted April 1, 2020 Posted April 1, 2020 2 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said: Of course the best coaches are always adjusting but very few change their scheme they've been working on their whole life You will never see McDermott run a 34 attacking man defense. Just like Rex forced his 34 hybrid here Burrow will need to go to a spread offense for his game to take off in the NFL. Stick him under center and he won't last I don't think we really disagree. If you draft a Burrow or a Tua or a Josh Allen you have to put them in a system that is conducive to their individual talents. If a HC is wedded to a system where Burrow can thrive then he shouldn't be drafted by that team. I agree with you that McDermott wouldn't run a 34 defense. But he is astute enough to get an OC who can run a system that is suitable to JA. 1
Buffalo716 Posted April 1, 2020 Posted April 1, 2020 Just now, JohnC said: I don't think we really disagree. If you draft a Burrow or a Tua or a Josh Allen you have to put them in a system that is conducive to their individual talents. If a HC is wedded to a system where Burrow can thrive then he shouldn't be drafted by that team. I agree with you that McDermott wouldn't run a 34 defense. But he is astute enough to get an OC who can run a system that is suitable to JA. Agree and nice conversation 1
DJB Posted April 1, 2020 Posted April 1, 2020 12 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said: Of course the best coaches are always adjusting but very few change their scheme they've been working on their whole life You will never see McDermott run a 34 attacking man defense. Just like Rex forced his 34 hybrid here Burrow will need to go to a spread offense for his game to take off in the NFL. Stick him under center and he won't last Well Chan plays spread so if he goes to Miami it's a good fit
Buffalo716 Posted April 1, 2020 Posted April 1, 2020 4 minutes ago, DJB said: Well Chan plays spread so if he goes to Miami it's a good fit Chan is a very underrated offensive coach. He can do alot without much talent His offense while here was way ahead of the curve. He was built for a 2020 offense 2
Richard Noggin Posted April 1, 2020 Posted April 1, 2020 Good stuff here, gang. I find it difficult to disagree with what I'm reading. Some of you value college production, and others (mostly one personnel evaluator here) value traits. Burrow's production was legendary this past season. No doubt. But will he be able to enjoy similar success at the next level, with different coaching and much greater competition both physically and schematically? That's the question. When Kirk Cousins was on the market a couple years ago, I had decided I wanted the Bills to go all-in on a precise pocket passer like him. I convinced myself he was the answer, and that NFL success still requires pocket precision above all else. And I think that is right, IF (and maybe only if) a number of other offensive factors are consistently accounted for (like scheme, protection, running game, weapons, etc.) at an above-average level. Immobile guys with average-ish arms (like a Cousins or a Brady, for example) have a difficult time producing at a high level when things around them break down. And more often than not in the NFL, things break down a bit. With the margins as thin as they are these days, it seems like physical gifts and improvisational ability are damn near essential to NFL success (let's just set aside the TB12 outlier for SO MANY reasons). Sure, a Manning and a Brees can win one or two 'ships when everything lines up (even though that was a while back now), and can certainly be successful overall. But who will be winning the next ten SBs? Probably REALLY physically talented QBs who also play the position well.
MrEpsYtown Posted April 1, 2020 Posted April 1, 2020 Cincinnati must be at least a little scared when you see Burrow’s touchdown record right next to David Klinger’s name. 2
BuffaloFan68 Posted April 1, 2020 Posted April 1, 2020 I still feel Herbert will end up being the best QB in this draft so as long as he doesn’t end up in Miami, then I’m good. Lets Go Buffalo!!!
Buffalo716 Posted April 1, 2020 Posted April 1, 2020 38 minutes ago, Richard Noggin said: Good stuff here, gang. I find it difficult to disagree with what I'm reading. Some of you value college production, and others (mostly one personnel evaluator here) value traits. Burrow's production was legendary this past season. No doubt. But will he be able to enjoy similar success at the next level, with different coaching and much greater competition both physically and schematically? That's the question. When Kirk Cousins was on the market a couple years ago, I had decided I wanted the Bills to go all-in on a precise pocket passer like him. I convinced myself he was the answer, and that NFL success still requires pocket precision above all else. And I think that is right, IF (and maybe only if) a number of other offensive factors are consistently accounted for (like scheme, protection, running game, weapons, etc.) at an above-average level. Immobile guys with average-ish arms (like a Cousins or a Brady, for example) have a difficult time producing at a high level when things around them break down. And more often than not in the NFL, things break down a bit. With the margins as thin as they are these days, it seems like physical gifts and improvisational ability are damn near essential to NFL success (let's just set aside the TB12 outlier for SO MANY reasons). Sure, a Manning and a Brees can win one or two 'ships when everything lines up (even though that was a while back now), and can certainly be successful overall. But who will be winning the next ten SBs? Probably REALLY physically talented QBs who also play the position well. I certainly value production but there are hundreds of productive college QBs who didn't make it It takes alot more than college production though and traits are what sets prospects apart anyways He certainly has some good traits and 1 year of production but his other tape leaves alot to be desired 1
Richard Noggin Posted April 1, 2020 Posted April 1, 2020 22 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said: I certainly value production but there are hundreds of productive college QBs who didn't make it It takes alot more than college production though and traits are what sets prospects apart anyways He certainly has some good traits and 1 year of production but his other tape leaves alot to be desired That's exactly what I was getting at. Fans often see college production and success and want a player based on that past performance at a lower level of difficulty. Scouts often see through all that to focus on the traits to project how the player might perform under VERY different conditions at the NFL level. Both approaches get it wrong. Both have merit. I tend to weight it 60/40 in favor of traits. Maybe more. The experts are usually better at this than the fans. But not always. 1
Buffalo716 Posted April 1, 2020 Posted April 1, 2020 4 minutes ago, Richard Noggin said: That's exactly what I was getting at. Fans often see college production and success and want a player based on that past performance at a lower level of difficulty. Scouts often see through all that to focus on the traits to project how the player might perform under VERY different conditions at the NFL level. Both approaches get it wrong. Both have merit. I tend to weight it 60/40 in favor of traits. Maybe more. The experts are usually better at this than the fans. But not always. Ahhh gotcha I understand And certainly agree. I'm far from foolproof but I do look at the jump that create those very different and difficult circumstances Burrow certainly checks most of the boxes but not all of them for me and I do worry about his ability to thread the needle in an NFL game
JetsFan20 Posted April 1, 2020 Posted April 1, 2020 QBs drafted in Top 3 since 2010 (Bold still with the team that drafted them) 2010: Sam Bradford 2011: Cam Newton 2012: Andrew Luck, RG3 2014: Blake Bortles 2015: Jameis Winston, Marcus Mariota 2016: Jared Goff, Carson Wentz 2017: Mitch Trubisky 2018: Baker Mayfield, Sam Darnold 2019: Kyler Murray let’s be honest outside of Luck none of these QBs have really been transformative players. Newton and Wentz have and big seasons, but both are injury prone. Goff has had his moments, but was brutal last year. Trubisky is on his last leg in Chicago. Mayfield and Darnold need to show something next year, and Murray to me is somewhat overrated in that dink and dunk offense.
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