Bills trade for Diggs - jw no discussions on a restructure

[YoloinOhio]

4 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

This is true. Look at where Bill has paid guys in the last decade. He paid Revis, he consistently pays McCourty and he paid Gilmore (who Bill from NYC never thought was much good but is the best corner in the NFL and was a top 10 corner when he was here).

 

Where he does and always has had a point was the Bills drafted corners in the first, let them play out their rookie deal, walk, and then repeated the cycle. I do think when you look back at it we probably took too many DBs high in the draft given that we were constantly drafting top 10. Picking Stephon Gilmore or Tre'davious White? There is no argument against that they were both elite corner prospects. Picking Leodis McKelvin or Donte Whitner in the top 10? Not so smart.

 

Yea also said he is "In the Mafia now" wants to jump through "at least 3 tables" and "John Brown is a baller, he has been underrated since he was in Arizona" and he "loves" Beasley who he described as "surgical."

 

Did not sound like a man who isn't pleased to be a Bill.

Diggs is probably impressed by Beasley’s route running and vice versa, they are two of the cleanest 

[ExWNYer]

4 minutes ago, JohnC said:

Bill, You have this perplexing obsessive aversion to drafting DBs. I don't understand it. You have for many years blamed it for the  limitation of our rosters. Do you know one coach who values DBs and is not reluctant to use high round picks for his team? Bill Belichick, arguably the most successful coach/GM in modern football whose specialty is defense. Stephon Gilmore was a high first round pick for the Bills. He played well for us. When he became a free agent the organization that coveted him and paid him a bonanza salary was New England. Since he has joined that franchise he has been an instrumental player for their many playoff and SB teams.

 

I agree with you that Levy as a somewhat GM and as a coach when involved in personnel decisions wasn't always wise in personnel decisions. But his mistakes related to evaluating players in general and assembling a roster- - - not his over-emphasis on favoring DBs. High caliber DBs in today's NFL spread passing game and qb protecting league are more valuable as ever. 

 

Sean McDermott's coaching background is from the defensive side of the ball. Most people would rate his short tenure with the Bills as a success. His first draft pick as a HC and basically acting GM was a DB, Tre White. Without question he has been one of our best players not only on defense but on the roster. The point is that you might be making a mistake in diminishing the importance of the position. 

 

Excellent post, John, but you are barking up the wrong tree with Bill. Despite many rational and factual rebuttals over the years by various members of this board countering his DB aversion, he sticks by his "No DBs!" mantra like the proverbial 'You kids get of my lawn!' curmudgeon. I like Bill and he is a great contributor but he is unflinching in his stance despite the evolution of today's passing game. Very few QBs throw Tre White's way which makes it imperative that the Bills have a solid and cheap option opposite him in the defensive backfield. Bill may not want to bother tuning in to Day 2 of the NFL draft because there is very good probability that Buffalo takes a DB with their first selection. I would not be surprised if they tab someone like Bryce Hall from Virginia who would pair nicely with Tre in the secondary, IMO. Beane and McDermott have done an excellent job addressing the holes on their roster but the second DB spot is still a potential Achilles' heel.

[thebandit27]

2 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said:

Diggs is probably impressed by Beasley’s route running and vice versa, they are two of the cleanest 

Beasley is going to put people through the meat grinder from the slot. He’s just really tough to cover with all of that space.

 

And the fact that Diggs can play from the slot with Beasley outside on occasion will definitely help in goal-line and short-yardage situations where you need quick separation.

[Cripple Creek]

5 hours ago, Chandler#81 said:

You are correct, Sir.

The ‘what if’s’ are plenty in this game, from the sack/safety to more use of the run. But the disaster play you’re staunchly defending came on the Giants final drive of the game -a long, time consuming drive to take the lead back. Stop them here and it’s 4th & a mile or at best a very long FG, which still wouldn’t give them the lead. Scoring the eventual TD left us 2 minutes with no time outs to try to reach their 30 for a long winning PK.

T’was the play of the game. Period.

This is so patently false that I cannot sit idly by trying to allow a Diggs thread to be about Diggs.

 

This game was lost because Jim Kelly did exactly what Bill Belichick knew he would.  Kelly was too wrapped up in himself and his stats to hand the ball off.  15 carries for 135. Do the math.  Someone, perhaps The Dean mentioned time of possession.  Why was it skewed? See above.  15 carries for Thurman, 4 (I believe for KD) averaging over 8 YPC.  The game was lost right there.  If not for this your "one play" never happens.

30 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

Beasley is going to put people through the meat grinder from the slot. He’s just really tough to cover with all of that space.

 

And the fact that Diggs can play from the slot with Beasley outside on occasion will definitely help in goal-line and short-yardage situations where you need quick separation.

Yeah, give me Diggs on a quick slant at the goal line. 

[BillsFan4]

1 hour ago, HappyDays said:

 

How do I watch this video? Can anyone post a link? Thanks in advance.

[YoloinOhio]

28 minutes ago, BillsFan4 said:

How do I watch this video? Can anyone post a link? Thanks in advance.

Not sure if the whole thing 

 

 

[Bill from NYC]

1 hour ago, ExWNYer said:

 

Excellent post, John, but you are barking up the wrong tree with Bill. Despite many rational and factual rebuttals over the years by various members of this board countering his DB aversion, he sticks by his "No DBs!" mantra like the proverbial 'You kids get of my lawn!' curmudgeon. I like Bill and he is a great contributor but he is unflinching in his stance despite the evolution of today's passing game. Very few QBs throw Tre White's way which makes it imperative that the Bills have a solid and cheap option opposite him in the defensive backfield. Bill may not want to bother tuning in to Day 2 of the NFL draft because there is very good probability that Buffalo takes a DB with their first selection. I would not be surprised if they tab someone like Bryce Hall from Virginia who would pair nicely with Tre in the secondary, IMO. Beane and McDermott have done an excellent job addressing the holes on their roster but the second DB spot is still a potential Achilles' heel.

Thanks for the kind words.

 

Remember, this time I was responding to a post about the 1991 draft. Going back even before that, the Bills were wasting prime picks on the secondary.  Trust me, I am perfectly aware that the running game (and stopping it) was at least twice as important as it is today. This is beyond dispute.  Would Ted have been a better pick than Hansen? Certainly. Hansen was a wonderful player but he played opposite Bruce Smith and even with Bryce Paup for a while. Would Ted have been a better pick than Jones? Of course, and he too was a fine player. Did you see our 3rd and 4th picks in 91? Realistically, that draft was primarily devoted to the secondary.

 

As for more recent selections, we drafted Gilmore (who didn't want to be here and dogged it quite often) when we had no quarterback. We also walked away from Mahomes and Watson while not having a quarterback and took yet another corner. Was Gilmore good? Yes. Is Tre good? Yes, perhaps bordering exceptional. Were these smart moves? No, they were stupid.

 

I'm not sure of your position on these and other moves like it throughout the years. Some will justify anything the Bills do or have done. I can't do this.  Again, I place the bulk of the blame on Levy. I'm sure that Marv was a nice man. Am I one of his fans? No I am not and I think other coaches (and yikes, GMs) would have won numerous Super Bowls with the talent that the Bills had over the years.

 

Jmo and thanks for the dialogue.

 

[BillsFan4]

Thanks @YoloinOhio! 

[Bill from NYC]

1 hour ago, JohnC said:

 

I agree with you that Levy as a somewhat GM and as a coach when involved in personnel decisions wasn't always wise in personnel decisions. But his mistakes related to evaluating players in general and assembling a roster- - - not his over-emphasis on favoring DBs. High caliber DBs in today's NFL spread passing game and qb protecting league are more valuable as ever. 

 

Sean McDermott's coaching background is from the defensive side of the ball. Most people would rate his short tenure with the Bills as a success. His first draft pick as a HC and basically acting GM was a DB, Tre White. Without question he has been one of our best players not only on defense but on the roster. The point is that you might be making a mistake in diminishing the importance of the position. 

John, the post was about the 1991 draft. DBs were less important back then. FAR less. Seriously Bro?

 

As for Tre, I never said he isn't a fine player. I am however quite sure that Mahomes was the pick.

[ExWNYer]

5 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said:

Thanks for the kind words.

 

Remember, this time I was responding to a post about the 1991 draft. Going back even before that, the Bills were wasting prime picks on the secondary.  Trust me, I am perfectly aware that the running game (and stopping it) was at least twice as important as it is today. This is beyond dispute.  Would Ted have been a better pick than Hansen? Certainly. Hansen was a wonderful player but he played opposite Bruce Smith and even with Bryce Paup for a while. Would Ted have been a better pick than Jones? Of course, and he too was a fine player. Did you see our 3rd and 4th picks in 91? Realistically, that draft was primarily devoted to the secondary.

 

As for more recent selections, we drafted Gilmore (who didn't want to be here and dogged it quite often) when we had no quarterback. We also walked away from Mahomes and Watson while not having a quarterback and took yet another corner. Was Gilmore good? Yes. Is Tre good? Yes, perhaps bordering exceptional. Were these smart moves? No, they were stupid.

 

I'm not sure of your position on these and other moves like it throughout the years. Some will justify anything the Bills do or have done. I can't do this.  Again, I place the bulk of the blame on Levy. I'm sure that Marv was a nice man. Am I one of his fans? No I am not and I think other coaches (and yikes, GMs) would have won numerous Super Bowls with the talent that the Bills had over the years.

 

Jmo and thanks for the dialogue.

 

 

Bill, I fundamentally agree with most of what you say, I just don't take such a hard line stance regarding the selection of DBs. I generally believe in building from the inside out (offensive and defensive lines) but when a DB is the first pick I don't automatically write it off as the wrong pick. Each year and each situation is different. For example, I thought at the time (and still do) that Donte Whitner was a HORRIBLE pick at #8 in 2006. I remember thinking when the Bills were on the clock, "Haloti Ngata right here!!" ...and then Whitner was taken (ugh). Gilmore was an EXCELLENT pick at #10 in 2012. Which QB would you have taken there? Brandon Weedon?? Brock Osweiler?? They weren't getting Andrew Luck who was taken 1st overall and Russell Wilson wasn't taken until Round 3. Trading up to take WR T.J. Graham with Wilson still on the board was certainly a HORRIBLE decision but hindsight is 20/20 and very few, if any, Bills fans would argue that trading up for Graham was a good idea, regardless of whether or not Wilson was available. If there was a re-draft, he would be the #1 pick, not Luck. WRT Mahomes, it is well documented that McDermott was not comfortable taking a QB without his GM in place and was in charge of that draft, bridging the gap between Whaley and Beane. Maybe they agree on Mahomes or Watson if Beane is place but he wasn't. That's more a case of bad timing versus a "stupid" pick. Say what you want but Tre White was not a stupid pick. He is the cornerstone of the current defense and will continue to be so. Marv? I liked Marv but he certainly had his share of warts. He was a middling coach up until the time the Bills hired him and he was the beneficiary of supremely talented teams assembled by Bill Polian. He had the right temperament to manage that collection of egos but wasn't the greatest X's and O's guy, IMO. There is no doubt in my mind that he was out-coached in SB XXV but Parcells (and Belichick) got (get) the better of most coaches they faced (face). Bottom-line: Taking a DB with your first pick can't just be summarily dismissed as stupid or bad and I trust the current regime and ownership to make the correct call more often than not. Cheers. 

[GG]

26 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said:

John, the post was about the 1991 draft. DBs were less important back then. FAR less. Seriously Bro?

 

As for Tre, I never said he isn't a fine player. I am however quite sure that Mahomes was the pick.

 

Hey, you're posting.  That's a good sign

[thebandit27]

1 hour ago, Cripple Creek said:

Yeah, give me Diggs on a quick slant at the goal line. 

That Diggs slant and Beasley drag-whip-option combo at the goal line is going to be nightmare fuel for teams to defend. Add to that Josh’s almost-automatic running ability from inside the 5 and DCs are really going to have to sharpen their respective pencils against Buffalo’s RZ offense.

[DCbillsfan]

29 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

That Diggs slant and Beasley drag-whip-option combo at the goal line is going to be nightmare fuel for teams to defend. Add to that Josh’s almost-automatic running ability from inside the 5 and DCs are really going to have to sharpen their respective pencils against Buffalo’s RZ offense.

Imagine the Bills adding a power running back to that mix!!!

[Cripple Creek]

23 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

That Diggs slant and Beasley drag-whip-option combo at the goal line is going to be nightmare fuel for teams to defend. Add to that Josh’s almost-automatic running ability from inside the 5 and DCs are really going to have to sharpen their respective pencils against Buffalo’s RZ offense.

Knox running a bit of interference at the line. Bingo.

[Chandler#81]

2 hours ago, Cripple Creek said:

This is so patently false that I cannot sit idly by trying to allow a Diggs thread to be about Diggs.

 

This game was lost because Jim Kelly did exactly what Bill Belichick knew he would.  Kelly was too wrapped up in himself and his stats to hand the ball off.  15 carries for 135. Do the math.  Someone, perhaps The Dean mentioned time of possession.  Why was it skewed? See above.  15 carries for Thurman, 4 (I believe for KD) averaging over 8 YPC.  The game was lost right there.  If not for this your "one play" never happens.

Yeah, give me Diggs on a quick slant at the goal line. 

Where’s this lame argument if Norwood makes the kick?

[JohnC]

1 hour ago, Bill from NYC said:

John, the post was about the 1991 draft. DBs were less important back then. FAR less. Seriously Bro?

 

As for Tre, I never said he isn't a fine player. I am however quite sure that Mahomes was the pick.

I was aware that you were talking about the 1991 draft but your draft aversion to DBs goes beyond that one year. 

 

Mahomes would certainly have been the best pick for the Bills in that particular draft year. If you recall JeffisMagic and I were exhorting the franchise to take either Mahomes or Watson in that draft. Jeff was more of a zealot for Mahomes while I felt that either player would have been not only an exceptional pick but also a transformative pick. But let's put that draft year in context. McDermott just took over with Whaley as a lame duck GM. As soon as that draft was over and his contract ran out he and the scouting staff in toto were let go. What was apparent is that the wrestling coach had little confidence in the prior GM's judgment so he waited to draft a highly rated qb when his own staff was in place. In hindsight it was a bad judgment but to be fair an understandable judgment. 

[JohnC]

3 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

This is true. Look at where Bill has paid guys in the last decade. He paid Revis, he consistently pays McCourty and he paid Gilmore (who Bill from NYC never thought was much good but is the best corner in the NFL and was a top 10 corner when he was here).

 

Where he does and always has had a point was the Bills drafted corners in the first, let them play out their rookie deal, walk, and then repeated the cycle. I do think when you look back at it we probably took too many DBs high in the draft given that we were constantly drafting top 10. Picking Stephon Gilmore or Tre'davious White? There is no argument against that they were both elite corner prospects. Picking Leodis McKelvin or Donte Whitner in the top 10? Not so smart.

 

 

You and I share the same exalting assessment on Gilmoure. 

 

My contention is that McKelvin and Donte Whitner were not good picks because of the position they played so much as they were poorly evaluated. Picking Whitner in the first round seemed odd to me. Leodis McKelvin was a speed demon. But he lacked football instincts and he had hands of stone. Being a physical specimen doesn't mean that you are a good football player. In my opinion the scouting department was intrigued with his physical talent and not enough concerned with his football acuity. 

 

 

1 hour ago, ExWNYer said:

 

Bill, I fundamentally agree with most of what you say, I just don't take such a hard line stance regarding the selection of DBs. I generally believe in building from the inside out (offensive and defensive lines) but when a DB is the first pick I don't automatically write it off as the wrong pick. Each year and each situation is different. For example, I thought at the time (and still do) that Donte Whitner was a HORRIBLE pick at #8 in 2006. I remember thinking when the Bills were on the clock, "Haloti Ngata right here!!" ...and then Whitner was taken (ugh). Gilmore was an EXCELLENT pick at #10 in 2012. Which QB would you have taken there? Brandon Weedon?? Brock Osweiler?? They weren't getting Andrew Luck who was taken 1st overall and Russell Wilson wasn't taken until Round 3. Trading up to take WR T.J. Graham with Wilson still on the board was certainly a HORRIBLE decision but hindsight is 20/20 and very few, if any, Bills fans would argue that trading up for Graham was a good idea, regardless of whether or not Wilson was available. If there was a re-draft, he would be the #1 pick, not Luck. WRT Mahomes, it is well documented that McDermott was not comfortable taking a QB without his GM in place and was in charge of that draft, bridging the gap between Whaley and Beane. Maybe they agree on Mahomes or Watson if Beane is place but he wasn't. That's more a case of bad timing versus a "stupid" pick. Say what you want but Tre White was not a stupid pick. He is the cornerstone of the current defense and will continue to be so. Marv? I liked Marv but he certainly had his share of warts. He was a middling coach up until the time the Bills hired him and he was the beneficiary of supremely talented teams assembled by Bill Polian. He had the right temperament to manage that collection of egos but wasn't the greatest X's and O's guy, IMO. There is no doubt in my mind that he was out-coached in SB XXV but Parcells (and Belichick) got (get) the better of most coaches they faced (face). Bottom-line: Taking a DB with your first pick can't just be summarily dismissed as stupid or bad and I trust the current regime and ownership to make the correct call more often than not. Cheers. 

You are astute and perspicacious. 

[GunnerBill]

8 minutes ago, JohnC said:

You and I share the same exalting assessment on Gilmoure. 

 

My contention is that McKelvin and Donte Whitner were not good picks because of the position they played so much as they were poorly evaluated. Picking Whitner in the first round seemed odd to me. Leodis McKelvin was a speed demon. But he lacked football instincts and he had hands of stone. Being a physical specimen doesn't mean that you are a good football player. In my opinion the scouting department was intrigued with his physical talent and not enough concerned with his football acuity. 

 

Yea exactly. They were reaches for presumed need at the spot. 

[ColoradoBills]

1 hour ago, thebandit27 said:

That Diggs slant and Beasley drag-whip-option combo at the goal line is going to be nightmare fuel for teams to defend. Add to that Josh’s almost-automatic running ability from inside the 5 and DCs are really going to have to sharpen their respective pencils against Buffalo’s RZ offense.

 

1 hour ago, DCbillsfan said:

Imagine the Bills adding a power running back to that mix!!!

 

1 hour ago, Cripple Creek said:

Knox running a bit of interference at the line. Bingo.

 

Stop it.  Don't get me all excited when I'm home all alone!

[DJB]

 

5 hours ago, YoloinOhio said:

Not sure if the whole thing 

 

 

 

No question Diggs knows Josh is a baller he saw it up close

 

 

 

Edited March 26, 2020 by DJB