Cripple Creek Posted March 31, 2020 Posted March 31, 2020 20 hours ago, ExiledInIllinois said: Bio waste down the drain or taking up a landfill. Landfill... The "gift that keeps on giving?" And... I am not talking about protection... The PPE will protect. But in this case. Could you be spreading it. COVID-19 is more viable on plastic longer than hands. You can't change your gloves every three seconds. That's such an absurd analogy with the seatbelt. Nobody is claiming it doesn't protect. Just claiming that the virus may get somewhere else. A better analogy is: When launching a boat. You take your seatbelt off. Biowaste better not be hitting landfills. 1
Hapless Bills Fan Posted March 31, 2020 Author Posted March 31, 2020 8 hours ago, John in Jax said: Not sure where this idea is coming from that an N95 PAPER/fiber mask can be fit-tested....it can't, because, well, it's made of a paper/fiber material and there's absolutely no way on earth you'd be able to get a "perfect seal", as you would with a full-size, no kidding, rubber respirator mask (will have a chewing tobacco sized "can" on either side of the mask & adjustable straps; the cans are the actual air filters which will filter out 100% of toxic gases). To work properly, the latter MUST be fit-tested by a doctor, and you must have no facial hair in order to get a impenetrable seal. Of course they are MUCH more expensive than the PAPER N95 masks, but they will literally save your life in a toxic gas situation. Source: Have worked in construction for 20+ years, and have used those white N95 paper/fiber dust masks for 20+ years. The same masks that health care workers are now clamoring for. The same masks that have two non-adjustable elastic bands on them, which go around your head, and pull the mask tight to your face. Of course, depending on how fat your head is, that will determine on how tight the mask is on your face. And again, even if it feels super tight, you won't have a perfect seal. Finally, I'd be willing to bet that if a covid-19 carrier coughed or sneezed directly on your N95 mask, and you kept it on, and kept breathing, you'd probably get the virus. Note: not absolutely sure on the latter; it really depends on how small/big the covid-19 particles are. As a example, the N95 mask will NOT protect you from crystalline silica particles (when concrete, tile, quartz, etc. gets cut and you're right there next to it), because those particles are too small, and they come through the mask. [Mod Edit: fit testing of N95 masks has been A Thing for years. For HCW, they come in several sizes for that reason. The test is performed with a sprayer of something that smells in low concentration, or that tastes sweet in low concentration - usually saccharine for the latter or isoamyl acetate (smells like bananas) for the former. The worker is advised what size of mask they need for a good fit and instructed on how to personally achieve a fit with it] See here, p 40: https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/docs/2015-117/pdfs/2015-117.pdf?id=10.26616/NIOSHPUB2015117 And here, section B2: https://www.osha.gov/laws-regs/regulations/standardnumber/1910/1910.134AppA ] John, I don't wish to offend you, but if you've actually been using these masks professionally in a situation where respiratory protection is desireable for 20 years, perhaps it is past time that you took responsibility to educate yourself about these. An improperly fitted N95 WILL NOT afford you the proper degree of protection. Informally, if you wear glasses and they fog up from breathing - you do not have a good fit. If you are wearing an N95 mask to meet OSHA requirements OTJ, it is actually a REQUIREMENT that it be fit tested. (In most places where theses are used outside health care, fit test is not a requirement, because they're intended to reduce nuisance levels of dust, not to meet an OSHA requirement - but still a good idea) I knew that fit tests were a Thing because of my own background, and because my spouse worked in Industrial Hygiene/Safety/Radiation safety/etc for 30+ years, but I was able to turn up the above references in roughly 2 minutes of google search and 3 minutes of reading. The virus is smaller than the 0.3 micron filter of an N95 mask, but viable virus is found in small moisture particles of which 95% are blocked by the mask. However, blocking 95% means 5% get through, so over a long period of regular contact Do the Math, yes, they will get sick. The minimum for HCW should be an N95 mask covered by a plastic shield, and a PAPR (positive air pressure respirator) is preferred for those dealing with contagious diseases.
ExiledInIllinois Posted March 31, 2020 Posted March 31, 2020 6 minutes ago, Cripple Creek said: Biowaste better not be hitting landfills. LoL...
John in Jax Posted March 31, 2020 Posted March 31, 2020 (edited) Thanks for that update Hapless. Only thing I can say is that for the MILLIONS of N95 "off the shelf" masks that they are getting from the construction industry/were made for the construction industry.....I am quite certain that THOSE masks will NOT be adjustable, and will NOT offer a impenetrable seal. ETA: the OSHA passage you cited deals with the fitment of a "real" respirator mask, which I talked about in the post above. A PAPER/fiber mask cannot be truly "fit-tested", because it's impossible to get a good enough seal on your face. ETA #2: From your 1st link: Fit testing is required for all users of respirators with tight-fitting facepieces, including filtering facepiece respirators. The fit test ensures that, when donned properly, the selected brand and size of respirator fits adequately to protect the wearer from excessive inward leakage of contaminant through the face seal. Again, a PAPER/fiber mask can never really be considered "tight-fitting." IOW, it will never be able to keep out 100% of the air out side of the mask, while a real respirator would indeed do the latter. The bottom line is that your average person can figure out how to properly wear an N95 PAPER/fiber mask, and get it fitted as good as possible (by themselves), in about One minute....a NY minute, if you desire. Edited March 31, 2020 by John in Jax
ExiledInIllinois Posted March 31, 2020 Posted March 31, 2020 7 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: John, I don't wish to offend you, but if you've actually been using these masks professionally in a situation where respiratory protection is desireable for 20 years, perhaps it is past time that you took responsibility to educate yourself about these. An improperly fitted N95 WILL NOT afford you the proper degree of protection. Informally, if you wear glasses and they fog up from breathing - you do not have a good fit. If you are wearing an N95 mask to meet OSHA requirements OTJ, it is actually a REQUIREMENT that it be fit tested. (In most places where theses are used outside health care, fit test is not a requirement, because they're intended to reduce nuisance levels of dust, not to meet an OSHA requirement - but still a good idea) I knew that fit tests were a Thing because of my own background, and because my spouse worked in Industrial Hygiene/Safety/Radiation safety/etc for 30+ years, but I was able to turn up the above references in roughly 2 minutes of google search and 3 minutes of reading. The virus is smaller than the 0.3 micron filter of an N95 mask, but viable virus is found in small moisture particles of which 95% are blocked by the mask. However, do the math: blocking 95% means 5% get through, so over a long period of regular contact Do the Math. The minimum for HCW should be an N95 mask covered by a plastic shield, and a PAPR (positive air pressure respirator) is preferred for those dealing with contagious diseases. Supposedly... OSHA "fit requirement" is why we at work had to ditch our N100s last year for N95s. I am not management... Never looked into it, I probably shouldn't blindly trust. But, that's the story I got. 2 minutes ago, John in Jax said: Thanks for that update Hapless. Only thing I can say is that for the MILLIONS of N95 "off the shelf" masks that they are getting from the construction industry/were made for the construction industry.....I am quite certain that THOSE masks will NOT be adjustable, and will NOT offer a impenetrable seal. What about beards???
SDS Posted March 31, 2020 Posted March 31, 2020 9 minutes ago, John in Jax said: Thanks for that update Hapless. Only thing I can say is that for the MILLIONS of N95 "off the shelf" masks that they are getting from the construction industry/were made for the construction industry.....I am quite certain that THOSE masks will NOT be adjustable, and will NOT offer a impenetrable seal. ETA: the OSHA passage you cited deals with the fitment of a "real" respirator mask, which I talked about in the post above. A PAPER/fiber mask cannot be truly "fit-tested", because it's impossible to get a good enough seal on your face. http://www.kdheks.gov/cphp/download/Fit_Test_Pro_for_N95_R.pdf here is a PDF document for a fit check for the N95 mask. It talks about those tests and refers to “readjusting“ the mask. I am fairly certain no one said those masks provide an impenetrable fit. That doesn’t mean they’re not fitted though. They just aren’t sealed.
John in Jax Posted March 31, 2020 Posted March 31, 2020 28 minutes ago, ExiledInIllinois said: What about beards??? Anytime you put ANY type of mask/respirator on your face, if you want it to truly protect/filter what you breathe into your mouth/nose, then the mask/respirator should be as tight fit, and as tightly sealed as possible to your face. So of course you would get the tightest/best fit if you have NO facial hair where the mask touches your face. (So a moustache may be OK) 2
K-9 Posted March 31, 2020 Posted March 31, 2020 (edited) This Bloomberg article really pissed me off. Doctors and nurses getting fired for speaking out? Really? They are doing the public a great service by letting us know how dire their situations are and these hospital administrations insist on treating it like a public relations issue. FFS. https://apple.news/AmO8sNGnPREW46ZQWlQEcRA Edited March 31, 2020 by K-9 3
K-9 Posted March 31, 2020 Posted March 31, 2020 1 hour ago, Jrb1979 said: It does suck but Ontario just closed all parks, sports fields and all outdoor recreational facilities. Now they limited gatherings to 5 here so they had to do it. Too many people think this is nothing. Still? Hard to believe given what we know about this. Willful ignorance is a polite way of saying stupid. And yet, we still have 20 state governors refusing to issue social distancing orders. One of those, Missouri, has seen a 600% spike in positive tests in the last week. Dumb Fs, all of them. 4
Hapless Bills Fan Posted March 31, 2020 Author Posted March 31, 2020 1 hour ago, SDS said: I think you guys are talking past each other. I can go to the mall and buy a pair of pants that “fits” me – your definition. Or I can go to a tailor and buy a pair of custom pants that fit me - John‘s definition of fit. I agree with your definition of fitted because I think John would have to say sealed which would be clearer. No, SDS, I think your analogy here misses the point. The point is, that "Fit testing" of N95 respirators, in situations where worker protection requires them to be worn, is mandated by law. "Fit" is the term used in the OSHA regulations, and what it means is defined, and verified by a defined procedure encoded in federal safety regulations. It is not analogous at all to buying a pair of Dockers at Old Navy where fit could mean anything, and be found in quotes. A well-fit N95 respirator mask SEALS. It has to. If the N95 mask did not actually seal against the edges of the face and bridge of the nose, it would not work as designed. It would also not pass the legally-defined fit check. You would smell the amyl acetate or taste the saccharine. I have personally had an N95 respirator fit to me, and I can verify that this is true when it is not properly fit. A well-fit N95 is actually somewhat bothersome to wear while working hard, BECAUSE it seals. It makes breathing laborsome, and moisture can build up inside (there are valved masks to avoid this, obviously unsuited to health care settings). People who wear them day after day may develop chafed spots on the bridge of their nose and sometimes their cheeks or chin - again, because they seal. It is common, and OK, for nuisance level construction dust where protection is not mandated by law, for folks to slap an N95 mask on their viz and not fit-check, and that's fine - but it might not be working as well as it could be. This common use does not mean that "fit" and "fit testing" have no legal and functional meaning for an N95 respirator. Slapping one on without fit-check will not afford the superior level of protection people believe an N95 mask will afford them. 1
Figster Posted March 31, 2020 Posted March 31, 2020 (edited) While we're on the subject of masks and the growing debate on everyone wearing them essential or non essential, I think its important for us to remember, we protect our health care workers and essential business workers when we protect ourselves. I realize many of you want to protect our health care workers first and foremost. I understand, I get it. Absolutely. Over loading our health care system with COVID 19 cases is whats going to cost us the lives of some of our best medical professionals. The masks and all the equipment they wear are not 100% full proof in protecting them from COVID 19. Men and woman working in close quarters to one another fighting a courageous battle against an invisble enemy. Its just a matter of time before they will all catch the virus. We have to stop this invisible enemy they face before it gets to them. Its the only way we can defeat this enemy as a nation in my humble opinion. Myself personally, I have an 82 year old mother living at home with underlying conditions. Like millions of Americans the anxiety and fear this virus is creating, hitting very close to home. Edited March 31, 2020 by Figster 1
SDS Posted March 31, 2020 Posted March 31, 2020 14 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: No, SDS, I think your analogy here misses the point. The point is, that "Fit testing" of N95 respirators, in situations where worker protection requires them to be worn, is mandated by law. "Fit" is the term used in the OSHA regulations, and what it means is defined, and verified by a defined procedure encoded in federal safety regulations. It is not analogous at all to buying a pair of Dockers at Old Navy where fit could mean anything, and be found in quotes. A well fit mask seals. It has to. If the N95 mask did not actually seal against the edges of the face, it would not pass the legally-defined fit check. You would smell the amyl acetate or taste the saccharine. I have personally had an N95 respirator fit to me, and I can verify that this is true when it is not properly fit. My spouse has had all varieties of PPE (from N95 to full-face respirators with cannisters) professionally fit by trained industrial hygienists multiple times over his career, and confirms this. Full-face respirators are easier to fit check. It is common, and OK, for nuisance level construction dust where protection is not mandated by law, for folks to slap an N95 mask on their viz and not fit-check, and that's fine - but it might not be working as well as it could be. A well-fit N95 is actually somewhat bothersome to wear while working hard. It restricts breathing, and moisture can build up inside under some conditions. This common use does not mean that "fit" and "fit testing" have no legal and functional meaning for an N95 respirator. Slapping one on without fit-check will not afford the superior level of protection people believe an N95 mask will afford them. If you say it seals, I can't argue. That is hard for me to imagine though. I have some old masks downstairs, and I never imagined they could seal.
SDS Posted March 31, 2020 Posted March 31, 2020 https://www.health.ny.gov/publications/2805/index.htm I guess they do. That's why a should shut up even when I think I have a modicum of knowledge. 1
Hapless Bills Fan Posted March 31, 2020 Author Posted March 31, 2020 11 minutes ago, SDS said: If you say it seals, I can't argue. That is hard for me to imagine though. I have some old masks downstairs, and I never imagined they could seal. Well, you could put Sweet-n-Low packets and water in a spray bottle, and find out ?...procedure is linked above. The simple fit-checks linked in the NY pub you linked are a good starting place. If they're old, the weak point is the elastic, which may no longer be strong enough to hold the mask firmly enough in place.
John in Jax Posted March 31, 2020 Posted March 31, 2020 One final post about paper/fiber N95 masks in here and I'm done. All I can talk about with certainty is how they have been used in the construction industry. In my 20+ years I have never seen a white paper/fiber N95 mask that had adjustable straps. I have never seen a GC, or any other contractor require their people to go off the site to get "fit-tested" for their N95 masks. I have never been asked by an OSHA inspector if my workers had had their N95 masks fit-tested. What I have seen is that workers have been instructed by a safety person, or by their supervisor, how to put on the mask, how to properly secure the mask to their face (with the 2 elastic straps), and how to put the little metal strip across the bridge of their nose & pinch it a bit to make it conform to their nose. Only thing easier to don would be a pair of gloves, or maybe safety glasses. Even a hardhat has an adjustment capability (of the inner, protective suspension). So I think that your average Joe would have no problem self-fitting a paper/fiber N95 mask. 1
BillsFan4 Posted March 31, 2020 Posted March 31, 2020 Saw this and decided to share: https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/03/not-wearing-masks-protect-against-coronavirus-big-mistake-top-chinese-scientist-says# ‘Not wearing masks to protect against coronavirus is a ‘big mistake,’ top Chinese scientist says’ Quote Science has tried to interview George Gao, director-general of the Chinese Center for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), for 2 months. Last week he responded. It’s an interesting interview. Quote Q: What can other countries learn from the way China has approached COVID-19? A: Social distancing is the essential strategy for the control of any infectious diseases, especially if they are respiratory infections. First, we used “nonpharmaceutical strategies,” because you don’t have any specific inhibitors or drugs and you don’t have any vaccines. Second, you have to make sure you isolate any cases. Third, close contacts should be in quarantine: We spend a lot of time trying to find all these close contacts, and to make sure they are quarantined and isolated. Fourth, suspend public gatherings. Fifth, restrict movement, which is why you have a lockdown, the cordon sanitaire in French. Quote Q: What mistakes are other countries making? A: The big mistake in the U.S. and Europe, in my opinion, is that people aren’t wearing masks. This virus is transmitted by droplets and close contact. Droplets play a very important role—you’ve got to wear a mask, because when you speak, there are always droplets coming out of your mouth. Many people have asymptomatic or presymptomatic infections. If they are wearing face masks, it can prevent droplets that carry the virus from escaping and infecting others. Seems like a moot point at the moment, since we don’t even have enough masks for our healthcare workers, let alone the entire US population. But in general I do think it’s something we will probably see a lot more of moving forward (people in public wearing masks, like we see overseas). Quote Q: People who tested positive in Wuhan but only had mild disease were sent into isolation in large facilities and were not allowed to have visits from family. Is this something other countries should consider? A: Infected people must be isolated. That should happen everywhere. You can only control COVID-19 if you can remove the source of the infection. This is why we built module hospitals and transformed stadiums into hospitals. This sounds like a smart idea. It is something I’ve thought a lot about - How do you keep 1 member of a household from infecting the rest of the household, especially if there are family members in the higher risk category? Do you quarantine off a section of the house? What if there’s only 1 bathroom? (etc). 1
Gray Beard Posted March 31, 2020 Posted March 31, 2020 @Hapless Bills Fan @John in Jax My son is a nurse. He usually has a short beard. Once a year they make him shave and get fit tested so that they know that he knows the proper way to wear a mask. So far, he has had only minor interactions with covid patients. He has shaved his beard and is paying close attention to how his mask is fitting. They expect that interaction with covid patients will ramp up over the next few weeks. 1
ExiledInIllinois Posted March 31, 2020 Posted March 31, 2020 Can I cut a hole in my mask so I can smoke? Actually saw a guy at work do that! What a badass! Not the guy at work... But close: This is a humor thread, right? 2
Sundancer Posted March 31, 2020 Posted March 31, 2020 (edited) Anecdotal and correlative, but which countries have the crazy citizens who wear masks in public and which don't? 1 hour ago, BillsFan4 said: Saw this and decided to share: https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/03/not-wearing-masks-protect-against-coronavirus-big-mistake-top-chinese-scientist-says# ‘Not wearing masks to protect against coronavirus is a ‘big mistake,’ top Chinese scientist says’ I don't doubt his advice in here may be sound, but lessons learned from China's response and "success" is not something I buy. The China story is a little too storybook for my taste, but I do hope they have been forthright. Edited March 31, 2020 by Sundancer 1
ExiledInIllinois Posted March 31, 2020 Posted March 31, 2020 26 minutes ago, Sundancer said: Anecdotal and correlative, but which countries have the crazy citizens who wear masks in public and which don't? I don't doubt his advice in here may be sound, but lessons learned from China's response and "success" is not something I buy. The China story is a little too storybook for my taste, but I do hope they have been forthright. Good answer. Like the way you think! I think your subtle commentary! Really bringing your A-game!
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