Sundancer Posted March 30, 2020 Posted March 30, 2020 44 minutes ago, ExiledInIllinois said: I wonder if this is true... @Hapless Bills Fan Our son claims that wearing gloves, latex gloves could "spread" the virus around more. That normal, religious hand washing is better. The gloves are just an extra layer of protection and should be treated as contaminated the instant they are out in. And when you take them off, it should be done carefully and immediately be followed by the through hand wash to elbows. The best thing about the gloves for me is that they remind me not to touch my face. 1
Lurker Posted March 30, 2020 Posted March 30, 2020 35 minutes ago, Augie said: My 92 year old mother lives in a high rise retirement place with a bunch of people just like her. Playing cards once or twice a day was part of the daily routine. Now, she can’t figure out how to properly operate her phone, but they DID figure out sitting around a small table with different people and passing those cards cards around was a bad idea. That ended 2-3 weeks ago. Is she at all computer literate? For the past two weekends, we've been holding Zoom "game nights" with my 86 year old mother in law. We've had the entire extended family attend from ten different locations and it has been a wonderful experience for her, as well as us... 1
Figster Posted March 30, 2020 Posted March 30, 2020 (edited) 44 minutes ago, Sundancer said: The gloves are just an extra layer of protection and should be treated as contaminated the instant they are out in. And when you take them off, it should be done carefully and immediately be followed by the through hand wash to elbows. The best thing about the gloves for me is that they remind me not to touch my face. I can tell you from experience in the field and in a training facility the average individual will not know how to remove gloves without cross contaminating themselves. Even after extensive training the removal of gloves is the most likely place worksers make a mistake. It sounds easy right? Lets say you remove one glove successfully. How do you remove the 2nd glove with a bare hand without touching it? Can you perform this task in a car after shopping? Or do you crap up everything you touch? Wash your hands... Edited March 30, 2020 by Figster
Hapless Bills Fan Posted March 30, 2020 Author Posted March 30, 2020 2 hours ago, ExiledInIllinois said: I wonder if this is true... @Hapless Bills Fan Our son claims that wearing gloves, latex gloves could "spread" the virus around more. That normal, religious hand washing is better. Everything I have read points to: viable virus doesn't last long on hands. Of course don't go mining your nose, touching your face, etc... It kinda makes sense that an impermeable glove would "push it around"... Of course gloves are important as PPE with all kinds of other pathogens... But with COVID-19?? BUT, I feel the glove can be removed properly, inside out, hand to hand and "corral" any virus, right? What's your take? Myth or fact? We are at odds on this one! Oh... JUST like the raging debate: Nancy-Boy glove wearing Qbs vs. Non-glove wearing "tough guy" quarterbacks! ? I have no idea how long viable virus lasts on hands. If you have someone who collected that data, I'd love to know about it; as far as I know, it doesn't exist. If covid-19 virus can live 3 hrs on paper and 24 hrs or more (quite variable) on cardboard (for which there is data), I have absolutely no idea why the virus wouldn't be totally happy to tuck in and live for hours on your nice, soft, temperature controlled lipid-containing skin, meanwhile being transferred to everything you touch. So "unknown" but there's this: I trained as an EMT and worked in an ER before Hep B was widespread, before HIV was circulating...actually in scary time where it was circulating but we didn't know it yet. There's a reason things changed, and now-a-days gloves and goggles are "de rigour" for health care workers, and that reason is not because it's easier to spread virus around with gloves than without. 1) Capability. People think they are better at handwashing than they are. Unless you're a surgeon or have had occasion to scrub radioactive material off your hands from a glove-split accident whilst your RSO (radiation safety officer) followed up with a geiger counter (or swabs and scintillation counts) and bitched at you to stop being a slob because he wants to go home, you have no idea how much care it takes to really clean your hands. Do you "count to 20"? Or do you really do a thorough job, working up a nice lather, keeping your nails cut short, scrubbing your fingertips in your palms, being sure to get the backs of your hands and between the fingers? Do you press on each fingernail to suck soap under the nails, maybe use a brush, and a fingernail file to clean beneath them? Then do you wipe down the faucet handles and sink? That actually takes quite a bit longer than 20 seconds. Bottom line, peeling off a glove and THEN washing hands, is a higher probability of success than just washing hands, unless your washing technique is MET-IC-U-LOUS. 2) Convenience. Good handwashing stations with soap and hot water aren't always available. Can you avoid reaching in a pocket or purse or getting in your car? Peeling off gloves and cleaning hands with hand sanitizer then reaching in pocket or purse >> just cleaning with handsanitizer. 3) Capacity. Getting a 95% reduction in covid-19 by carefully removing gloves (and yes, you can remove gloves by folding them down over your hands and contain virus), then a 95% reduction by washing hands, means you have 0.25% of any remaining virus left on your hands, which is clearly better than just 5%. Extra care can be taken by sanitizing the gloves with bleach or other disinfectant before removal (make a bucket, just plunge gloved hands directly in it), using a disinfectant like bleach that is too harsh for repeated contact with skin. That said, Glove wearing does NOT have magic properties that some ascribe to it. People who go around the house wearing the gloves they were wearing out in the community, are potentially spreading the virus around the house just as much as someone who strolls in bare handed and touches everything. Gloves are not a replacement for frequent and careful hand washing. They are an addition. Now, to @ExiledInIllinois, if your son's argument is he touches repeated potentially contaminated things like customer credit cards etc... then yes, if he doesn't have enough gloves to change, and doesn't clean his gloves after each transaction where he is now washing hands, that's a point.. .but IMHO the solution is to sanitize the gloves after each potentially contaminating transaction where he would wash hands, not to forgo gloves. 1
ExiledInIllinois Posted March 30, 2020 Posted March 30, 2020 Son in pharmacy is still wearing a mask to protect others and himself! 1
Hapless Bills Fan Posted March 30, 2020 Author Posted March 30, 2020 43 minutes ago, Figster said: I can tell you from experience in the field and in a training facility the average individual will not know how to remove gloves without cross contaminating themselves. Even after extensive training the removal of gloves is the most likely place worksers make a mistake. It sounds easy right? Lets say you remove one glove successfully. How do you remove the 2nd glove with a bare hand without touching it? Can you perform this task in a car after shopping? Or do you crap up everything you touch? Wash your hands... Why yes, yes I can. I can perform this task in a car after shopping...or in a house, or with a mouse, or in a box, or with a fox.... Its not that hard, folks. Learn. To make my point, I just grabbed a totally random stranger ? and asked him to demonstrate how to remove a pair of contaminated gloves safely. Here is the result in 27 seconds, a neat package of two gloves inside-out, with the contaminated surface tucked away inside. (Ignore the dirty futon cover in the background, its where the dog sleeps.) After removing the gloves, use hand sanitizer (if sink and soap not available) or preferably wash thoroughly with soap and water. If contamination with something nasty is probable (say, you are caring for a loved one with covid-19), keep a bucket of diluted bleach solution handy and dunk the gloves in the bleach for 30 sec (wash like washing hands) first, to reduce contamination. Can also just spray with disinfectant or rub with hand sanitizer - again, if you know contamination with something nasty is probable. This sounds like the modern era version of the "safer to be thrown from a car than to wear a seatbelt" argument. IMG_7922[1].MOV
Hapless Bills Fan Posted March 30, 2020 Author Posted March 30, 2020 1 hour ago, Figster said: Its possible the negatives out weigh the positives IMO. The chance of cross contamination during removal vs just washing your hands thoroughly after exposure makes your sons argument a good one. Of course small cuts. or abrasions on the other hand are also something to take into consideration. The N 95 mask to me is a no brainer in my humble opinion. Every household in the US should have a supply. Common sense would tell you stopping the problem at its source results in less masks and ventilators needed in the hospitals. Essential workers need them. We all need them. Protect the air you breath my Bills brothas and sisters. Its the only way we can stop this virus in its tracks. Except that we don't have an ample National supply of N95 masks at this point. If you or any households you know do have a supply of N95 masks, please consider that HCW continuously exposed ARE GOING WITHOUT, RIGHT NOW. Keep only 1-2 per household member, learn how to reuse safely, and donate the rest to an ER (or nursing home near you for aides to wear) The life you save by keeping a HCW healthy and on the job could be your loved ones or your own. For casual, 6 feet away contact, a homemade fine cotton cloth or paper medical mask should suffice, save the N95s for the HCW. Especially if you've never had it fit checked, it is possibly no more effective for you than a paper or cloth homemade mask. No, the negatives of wearing gloves do not outweigh the positives, unless the person wearing the gloves behaves as though they have magic properties. If that were true, universal precautions for HCW involving glove-wearing would never have come into play. Gloves + washing >> washing alone, always. Again, though, spare them for HCW unless you are in a high public-contact profession.
Augie Posted March 30, 2020 Posted March 30, 2020 (edited) 47 minutes ago, Lurker said: Is she at all computer literate? For the past two weekends, we've been holding Zoom "game nights" with my 86 year old mother in law. We've had the entire extended family attend from ten different locations and it has been a wonderful experience for her, as well as us... She struggles with technology, in fact just a minute ago she accidentally tried to FaceTime me and both of my sisters at the same time. It only rang once, I didn’t even know that was possible! She accidentally calls me about twice a day, or says she just got a call, “was that you?” I think a lot of it is boredom and hopefulness. My sisters will talk to her hours at a time, but they live far away. I talk less, but take her groceries and do whatever little things she needs done. I used to talk so much on the phone working, I’m kind of over it now. I’m not a long chatter guy, but do what I can. My wife is working from home now, and she’s just talking on the phone for 10 straight hours. She comes down for a shake, then “gotta go, another call in 3 minutes.” We do have some games she can play with or without us, but I think Zoom game night would be too much for her (and ME in some respects!). EDIT: For 92 years old, she’s doing AMAZING! Knocking on wood now! . Edited March 30, 2020 by Augie
Hapless Bills Fan Posted March 30, 2020 Author Posted March 30, 2020 1 hour ago, Augie said: My 92 year old mother lives in a high rise retirement place with a bunch of people just like her. Playing cards once or twice a day was part of the daily routine. Now, she can’t figure out how to properly operate her phone, but they DID figure out sitting around a small table with different people and passing those cards cards around was a bad idea. That ended 2-3 weeks ago. We have the same struggle. We gave my mom first a jitterbug for Christmas then replaced with an iphone in mid-January. She struggles with it. She does manage to read and receive our texts and pictures, though, so that's something.
Figster Posted March 30, 2020 Posted March 30, 2020 5 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: Why yes, yes I can. I can perform this task in a car after shopping...or in a house, or with a mouse, or in a box, or with a fox.... Its not that hard, folks. Learn. To make my point, I just grabbed a totally random stranger ? and asked him to demonstrate how to remove a pair of contaminated gloves safely. Here is the result in 27 seconds, a neat package of two gloves inside-out, with the contaminated surface tucked away inside. After removing the gloves, use hand sanitizer (if sink and soap not available) or preferably wash thoroughly. If contamination with something nasty is probable (say, you are caring for a loved one with covid-19), keep a bucket of diluted bleach solution handy and dunk the gloves in the bleach for 30 sec (wash like washing hands) first, to reduce contamination. IMG_7922[1].MOV 49.98 MB · 0 downloads You are also more intelligent then your average bear Haplesss. Even so, I've watched highly intelligent men and woman fail performing proper dress out procedures during training because of mistakes made during glove removal. I'm speaking from experience. How did you open the door to your car or grab keys without contaminating them? Much easier and safer to just wash your hands IMO. Latex gloves are not necessary IMO. 11 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: Except that we don't have an ample National supply of N95 masks at this point. If you or any households you know do have a supply of N95 masks, please consider that HCW continuously exposed ARE GOING WITHOUT, RIGHT NOW. Keep only 1-2 per household member, learn how to reuse safely, and donate the rest to an ER (or nursing home near you for aides to wear) The life you save by keeping a HCW healthy and on the job could be your loved ones or your own. For casual, 6 feet away contact, a homemade fine cotton cloth or paper medical mask should suffice, save the N95s for the HCW. Especially if you've never had it fit checked, it is possibly no more effective for you than a paper or cloth homemade mask. No, the negatives of wearing gloves do not outweigh the positives, unless the person wearing the gloves behaves as though they have magic properties. If that were true, universal precautions for HCW involving glove-wearing would never have come into play. Gloves + washing >> washing alone, always. Again, though, spare them for HCW unless you are in a high public-contact profession. I respectfully disagree with much of what you are saying.
UConn James Posted March 30, 2020 Posted March 30, 2020 Just saw that the 90yo grandfather of my best friend’s GF died this morning, from the virus. He was the caregiver for his slightly younger wife who is physically not-well. Her father had been in close proximity with her grandfather and is self-quarantining, she had close proximity to him, and my friend had proximity to her. So... all having to self-quarantine. My oldest brother downstate is a LEO in the courts and was told that someone in his building was confirmed, so he has to self-quarantine. And his wife went yesterday to a testing site because she was presenting symptoms. Such a delayed onset for any symptom of this is the worst. 2
Hardhatharry Posted March 30, 2020 Posted March 30, 2020 5 minutes ago, UConn James said: Such a delayed onset for any symptom of this is the worst. That is just the worst thing about it, how long it takes before you actually feel sick. Just think of the things you did for the last week and a half before it even happened.
Augie Posted March 30, 2020 Posted March 30, 2020 (edited) 33 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: We have the same struggle. We gave my mom first a jitterbug for Christmas then replaced with an iphone in mid-January. She struggles with it. She does manage to read and receive our texts and pictures, though, so that's something. My mom had a bottom of the line Samsung phone, and we had to get her an iPhone because that’s what we have and I can help her fix things when she gets stuck (which is fairly often). She has a bad habit of unknowingly turning off the iPad keyboard. It confounds her every time, and the button is so tiny it’s hard to help her find it over the phone. She also struggles with the lingo. She has my old iPad, an iPhone and a desktop and she’ll call asking about a message to or from her “device”. Text? Email? Which “device”? Give me some more help here! Haha She really appreciates stuff we send her (especially videos and photos of her GREAT grandson!), so we keep throwing it her way, then fielding the questions. As my wife likes to say “you don’t HAVE To help your mom again, you GET TO help your mom again”. Her mom passed a couple years ago. That’s the right way to look at it, for sure. . Edited March 30, 2020 by Augie 1
Hapless Bills Fan Posted March 30, 2020 Author Posted March 30, 2020 22 minutes ago, Figster said: You are also more intelligent then your average bear Haplesss. Even so, I've watched highly intelligent men and woman fail performing proper dress out procedures during training because of mistakes made during glove removal. I'm speaking from experience. How did you open the door to your car or grab keys without contaminating them? Much easier and safer to just wash your hands IMO. Latex gloves are not necessary IMO. I told you, just grabbed a random guy. ? Didn't prompt him, never gave him a word of advice. Guy never worked in science or the medical profession or anything! (yeah, OK, he's a sleeper for another reason). But seriously, I do believe the "random bear" given clear instructions can figure it out. If they're failing in their dress out procedures due to glove removal mistakes, the glove training was a fail. They need to be given grape jelly or something to smear on the outside of their gloves so they learn. Upthread I explained why I believe that line of reasoning about gloves is fallacious. The party line of the CDC right now is that neither gloves nor masks are necessary for the general public, and there is something to be said about sparing gloves for HCW. Just to respond: How did you open the door to your car or grab keys without contaminating them, if your strategy is to wash your hands after some outside-the-house foray - Dr office? Shopping? ?♂️ It all depends upon what you think is contaminated. If I am wearing gloves to go to a Dr office or to buy groceries, I would de-glove after loading the groceries in the trunk, but before opening my car door. Tuck the key in a baggie in pocket together with credit card used to pay to later sanitize at home, or if needed to operate the car, set key out of the way inside car. Open the car door, clean hands with hand sanitizer, and use the disinfectant wipes in the car to clean anything you touched before sanitizing hands - door handle, key etc. When I get home, stick my hands in clean plastic bags to carry in the groceries then wash hands and sanitize anything I touched coming into the house. Here is an excellent article on general infection control procedures from someone who underwent a bone marrow transplant.
Figster Posted March 30, 2020 Posted March 30, 2020 2 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: I told you, just grabbed a random guy. ? Didn't prompt him, never gave him a word of advice. Guy never worked in science or the medical profession or anything! (yeah, OK, he's a sleeper for another reason). But seriously, I do believe the "random bear" given clear instructions can figure it out. If they're failing in their dress out procedures due to glove removal mistakes, the glove training was a fail. They need to be given grape jelly or something to smear on the outside of their gloves so they learn. Upthread I explained why I believe that line of reasoning about gloves is fallacious. The party line of the CDC right now is that neither gloves nor masks are necessary for the general public, and there is something to be said about sparing gloves for HCW. Just to respond: How did you open the door to your car or grab keys without contaminating them, if your strategy is to wash your hands after some outside-the-house foray - Dr office? Shopping? ?♂️ It all depends upon what you think is contaminated. If I am wearing gloves to go to a Dr office or to buy groceries, I would de-glove after loading the groceries in the trunk, but before opening my car door. Put the key in a baggie in pocket together with credit card used to pay to sanitize at home, or if needed to operate the car, set it out of the way inside car. Open the car door, clean hands with hand sanitizer, and use the disinfectant wipes in the car to clean anything you touched before sanitizing hands - door handle, key etc. When I get home, stick my hands in clean plastic bags to carry in the groceries then wash hands and sanitize anything I touched coming into the house. Here is an excellent article on general infection control procedures from someone who underwent a bone marrow transplant. Don't you think pulling out a small container of hand sanitzer after possible exposure is easier and makes more sense? I appreciate the discussion
ExiledInIllinois Posted March 30, 2020 Posted March 30, 2020 1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: Why yes, yes I can. I can perform this task in a car after shopping...or in a house, or with a mouse, or in a box, or with a fox.... Its not that hard, folks. Learn. To make my point, I just grabbed a totally random stranger ? and asked him to demonstrate how to remove a pair of contaminated gloves safely. Here is the result in 27 seconds, a neat package of two gloves inside-out, with the contaminated surface tucked away inside. (Ignore the dirty futon cover in the background, its where the dog sleeps.) After removing the gloves, use hand sanitizer (if sink and soap not available) or preferably wash thoroughly with soap and water. If contamination with something nasty is probable (say, you are caring for a loved one with covid-19), keep a bucket of diluted bleach solution handy and dunk the gloves in the bleach for 30 sec (wash like washing hands) first, to reduce contamination. Can also just spray with disinfectant or rub with hand sanitizer - again, if you know contamination with something nasty is probable. This sounds like the modern era version of the "safer to be thrown from a car than to wear a seatbelt" argument. IMG_7922[1].MOV 49.98 MB · 0 downloads Bio waste down the drain or taking up a landfill. Landfill... The "gift that keeps on giving?" And... I am not talking about protection... The PPE will protect. But in this case. Could you be spreading it. COVID-19 is more viable on plastic longer than hands. You can't change your gloves every three seconds. That's such an absurd analogy with the seatbelt. Nobody is claiming it doesn't protect. Just claiming that the virus may get somewhere else. A better analogy is: When launching a boat. You take your seatbelt off.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted March 30, 2020 Author Posted March 30, 2020 45 minutes ago, ExiledInIllinois said: Bio waste down the drain or taking up a landfill. Landfill... The "gift that keeps on giving?" And... I am not talking about protection... The PPE will protect. But in this case. Could you be spreading it. COVID-19 is more viable on plastic longer than hands. You can't change your gloves every three seconds. You can't wash your hands every three seconds either. I see no data, anywhere, supporting the contention you have now stated twice, so unless you provide data supporting it, I am going to have to ask you to stop making it here. 1 hour ago, Figster said: Don't you think pulling out a small container of hand sanitzer after possible exposure is easier and makes more sense? I appreciate the discussion Where are you pulling the sanitizer from? How are you avoiding contamination of wherever you're pulling it from? Otherwise, see above re: the washing and sanitizing of hands to effectively and completely remove contamination being more difficult than people think. 1
Sundancer Posted March 30, 2020 Posted March 30, 2020 I am guessing that our desire for Faster impact of anything on this will have countries producing vaccines and treatments before the full trials are complete. Given the circumstances this makes sense but I sure hope the trials bear out any optimism.
Figster Posted March 30, 2020 Posted March 30, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: You can't wash your hands every three seconds either. I see no data, anywhere, supporting the contention you have now stated twice, so unless you provide data supporting it, I am going to have to ask you to stop making it here. Where are you pulling the sanitizer from? How are you avoiding contamination of wherever you're pulling it from? Otherwise, see above re: the washing and sanitizing of hands to effectively and completely remove contamination being more difficult than people think. I agree, and its a good point. Reaching into your pocket alone can cross contaminate. I still think however the gloves give you more problems then solutions. It boils down to what we as individuals feel is the safest. I hope everyone makes the right decisions. Myself personally, having tried the latex glove approach while shopping. I came away from the experience with the opinion sanitizing my hands with the sanitary napkins / hand sanitizers most stores supply works equally as well with less problem worrying about proper removal or disposal. With all due respect Edited March 30, 2020 by Figster 1
ExiledInIllinois Posted March 30, 2020 Posted March 30, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: You can't wash your hands every three seconds either. I see no data, anywhere, supporting the contention you have now stated twice, so unless you provide data supporting it, I am going to have to ask you to stop making it here. Where are you pulling the sanitizer from? How are you avoiding contamination of wherever you're pulling it from? Otherwise, see above re: the washing and sanitizing of hands to effectively and completely remove contamination being more difficult than people think. Fair enough. I it's still a guesstimate from a few hours to a day. SARs stays on latex for 8 hours... But, SARs ain't exactly COVID-19 of course! So much we don't know of the new strain. https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/news/2020/03/25/coronavirus-survives-on-metal-plastic-cardboard-common-objects/2866340001/ No log in if Incognito: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2020/03/17/health/coronavirus-surfaces-aerosols.amp.html Cites: NEJM "...Health care workers might also collect those tiny droplets and larger ones on their protective gear when working with infected patients. They might resuspend these big and small droplets into the air when they take off this protective gear and become exposed to the virus then, Dr. Marr cautioned. A study that is being reviewed by experts bears out this fear. And another study, published March 4 in JAMA, also indicates that the virus is transported by air. That study, based in Singapore, found the virus on a ventilator in the hospital room of an infected patient, where it could only have reached via the air. ..." https://www.huffpost.com/entry/coronavirus-skin-hair-nails_l_5e73ce08c5b6eab77944be05 https://www.businessinsider.com/how-long-can-coronavirus-live-on-surfaces-how-to-disinfect-2020-3 https://www.kltv.com/2020/03/27/how-long-does-coronavirus-live-clothes-skin/ "...She explains, "So the best guess-timate we have, as far as these viruses are able to stay on skin, clothes, and fabrics of other types, is between several hours and up to one day. And it’s frustrating to have such a wide estimate but it’s because we still don’t know so much about this virus. ..." Edited March 30, 2020 by ExiledInIllinois 1
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