shoshin Posted August 19, 2020 Posted August 19, 2020 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said: Poor children will suffer with closed schools. How does a working, poverty stricken, single parent survive with 3 kids and either one or no computers in the home? Seriously. Many children also get their best meal of the day in school, no? Do we care? Many kids might even be home, unsupervised. Is there any risk of them catching covid19? Teachers (imo) need to decide whether or not they are "essential." So does society. Do you have any suggestions that might help the situation for disadvantaged kids, or are you going to call me names like you did to another poster? I recognize this is not PPP and am trying for a civil discourse on an important subject (reopening) and in particular in the last few posts, reopening schools. It's really hard but it points to a bigger problem of people not being able to engage in civil discourse. I know PPP has given up the art of rhetorical engagement and the powers that be allow it, but here I thought we could do better. Maybe we can. At some point, we need to open. At the extremes are folks who would pack concert stadiums tomorrow and those who won't go outside until we have a month of zero cases. In the middle is everyone else, which is most people. There will be a tension between those who want to stay closed and those who want to open--and that debate needs to be had in the open, civilly. Edited August 19, 2020 by shoshin 1
Patrick Duffy Posted August 19, 2020 Posted August 19, 2020 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said: Poor children will suffer with closed schools. How does a working, poverty stricken, single parent survive with 3 kids and either one or no computers in the home? Seriously. Many children also get their best meal of the day in school, no? Do we care? Many kids might even be home, unsupervised. Is there any risk of them catching covid19? Teachers (imo) need to decide whether or not they are "essential." So does society. Do you have any suggestions that might help the situation for disadvantaged kids, or are you going to call me names like you did to another poster? Schools supply the kids with computers. They have since this began. And didn't call him names, said HIS WAY OF THINKING WAS STUPID. Read closer 12 minutes ago, shoshin said: Is there some reason you can't keep conversation civil? There's a place for this: https://www.twobillsdrive.com/community/forum/14-politics-polls-and-pundits/ Some historical perspective: How much do you think this increases for 2020 in NYC, even including the April bomb? When you have that answer, you may have perspective about how life has always gone on, except now for some reason. See the thing is you aren't taking not only the kids families lives into account, but also the teachers and their families that will die from this if certain parts that are still bad reopen schools. nobody can do ***** if they are dead. Edited August 19, 2020 by Patrick_Duffy
shoshin Posted August 19, 2020 Posted August 19, 2020 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Patrick_Duffy said: Schools supply the kids with computers. They have since this began. Online truancy is as high is over 50% in low income areas. Even if a kid has a computer (something not available to everyone), it's only one small part of the problem. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/06/us/coronavirus-schools-attendance-absent.html My kid is brilliant and self-motivated. She could be like Newton, who invented The Calculus during the Bubonic Plague. Very few kids are like that. And there are the many, many, other important aspects that school brings that are completely absent online. 9 minutes ago, Patrick_Duffy said: See the thing is you aren't taking not only the kids families lives into account, but also the teachers and their families that will die from this if certain parts that are still bad reopen schools. nobody can do ***** if they are dead. No, I get it. The more we are open, the more people die, though as Florid, Texas, Georgia are showing, even remaining open we see cases go down. Whether it's schools or bars. The flip side of those deaths from being open is an entire society under higher rates of suicide, violent crime, depression, joblessness, child abuse, and the list goes on. That list isn't getting shorter with 8 more months of lockdown and the people most likely to suffer: Kids. Edited August 19, 2020 by shoshin 1
Patrick Duffy Posted August 19, 2020 Posted August 19, 2020 (edited) 3 minutes ago, shoshin said: Online truancy is as high is over 50% in low income areas. Even if a kid has a computer (something not available to everyone), it's only one small part of the problem. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/06/us/coronavirus-schools-attendance-absent.html My kid is brilliant and self-motivated. She could be like Newton, who invented The Calculus during the Bubonic Plague. Very few kids are like that. And there are the many, many, other important aspects that school brings that are completely absent online. Like I said either way a lot of schools are going to stick with virtual for now,(which I agree ) so be mad about it I guess. Edited August 19, 2020 by Patrick_Duffy
shoshin Posted August 19, 2020 Posted August 19, 2020 1 minute ago, Patrick_Duffy said: Like I said either way a lot of schools are going to stick with virtual for now, so be mad about it I guess. I'm not mad about it, I'm concerned and worried about it. NY is allowing schools to open. Many will but probably most will let fear guide them. Here in PA, a lot of private schools are opening, public ones not. GA, TX, and FL are opening schools.
Patrick Duffy Posted August 19, 2020 Posted August 19, 2020 (edited) 4 minutes ago, shoshin said: I'm not mad about it, I'm concerned and worried about it. NY is allowing schools to open. Many will but probably most will let fear guide them. Here in PA, a lot of private schools are opening, public ones not. GA, TX, and FL are opening schools. Look, I'm sorry if I may have gotten out of hand with this. My wife is a teacher. Her, myself and my son have conditions that likely would kill us all if she brings this ***** home. So this really hits home for me. The ones that are going to open won't last long mainly because people can't/won't do what they are supposed to which puts everyone elses life at risk. So it is what it is, right now, IMO they should remain virtual for the time being. In any event, I got to take care of some stuff. Good luck to you and yours. Edited August 19, 2020 by Patrick_Duffy
Bill from NYC Posted August 19, 2020 Posted August 19, 2020 (edited) 22 minutes ago, Patrick_Duffy said: Schools supply the kids with computers. They have since this began. And didn't call him names, said HIS WAY OF THINKING WAS STUPID. Read closer Yeah, and if they break or the system goes down, 7 and 8 year old kids will fix said computers. No problem, right? And we know that kids need no supervision, right? PS: People who disagree with you are not necessarily stupid in their way of thinking. Edited August 19, 2020 by Bill from NYC 1 1
Bill from NYC Posted August 19, 2020 Posted August 19, 2020 19 minutes ago, shoshin said: Online truancy is as high is over 50% in low income areas. Even if a kid has a computer (something not available to everyone), it's only one small part of the problem. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/06/us/coronavirus-schools-attendance-absent.html A dear friend of mine is a HS public school teacher. The principal of her school declared in the spring that students could not get lower final grades than they received the 3rd quarter, but could get higher final grades. The administration informed the students of this, and almost her entire class did not do their work in the last quarter. She also said that her fellow teachers experienced the same thing. I sympathize with Patrick about the medical conditions of his family members and hope that something can be arranged for them. That said, we also have to think about the disadvantaged kids who truly do need to be in school. We must also be informed whether or not teachers are "essential" workers. If they are not, perhaps they should not be paid as such.
shoshin Posted August 19, 2020 Posted August 19, 2020 Just now, Bill from NYC said: A dear friend of mine is a HS public school teacher. The principal of her school declared in the spring that students could not get lower final grades than they received the 3rd quarter, but could get higher final grades. The administration informed the students of this, and almost her entire class did not do their work in the last quarter. She also said that her fellow teachers experienced the same thing. I sympathize with Patrick about the medical conditions of his family members and hope that something can be arranged for them. That said, we also have to think about the disadvantaged kids who truly do need to be in school. We must also be informed whether or not teachers are "essential" workers. If they are not, perhaps they should not be paid as such. Patrick: Sympathies to you and yours, truly. This is one of those moments where people need to get creative. At risk teachers and students need to be taken care of too, and so must we take care of those not at particular risk. Right now we have a response built around the average at-risk person: 79 and 2 comorbidities. That's no way to continue. We lack leadership coming up with solutions but I'd suggest we need plans for at-risk people and also those not at Covid risk--because those not at risk from Covid are suffering in all the additional ways that they don't have to. Bill: We have not shown a backbone as a people and are not united in any way to contront this. I lay that blame neither with the Ds nor Rs, but us. We need to build America up block by block, not in online forums like Twitter/PPP that tear it down. Ironically posted on a message board. 1
Patrick Duffy Posted August 19, 2020 Posted August 19, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, Bill from NYC said: Yeah, and if they break or the system goes down, 7 and 8 year old kids will fix said computers. No problem, right? And we know that kids need no supervision, right? PS: People who disagree with you are not necessarily stupid in their way of thinking. If they break they get replaced. Come on now....the school replaces the Ipads unless it's an instance where parents or child are negligent with it. Then the school would have to prove that which would be difficult. So likely yes, the school would provide them with new ones. That's what it says on my kids paper work that they send out anyways. So yeah, no problem in that matter anyways. 1 hour ago, Bill from NYC said: A dear friend of mine is a HS public school teacher. The principal of her school declared in the spring that students could not get lower final grades than they received the 3rd quarter, but could get higher final grades. The administration informed the students of this, and almost her entire class did not do their work in the last quarter. She also said that her fellow teachers experienced the same thing. I sympathize with Patrick about the medical conditions of his family members and hope that something can be arranged for them. That said, we also have to think about the disadvantaged kids who truly do need to be in school. We must also be informed whether or not teachers are "essential" workers. If they are not, perhaps they should not be paid as such. LOL, what?! Teachers don't get paid nearly enough. What are you talking about. Edited August 19, 2020 by Patrick_Duffy
Patrick Duffy Posted August 19, 2020 Posted August 19, 2020 (edited) 3 hours ago, shoshin said: Who do you think reports the most cases of child abuse? Neglect? Schools. What do you think the long term consequences are to mental health? We already see the short term consequences in society at large in violence, suicides, depression. At risk teachers like everyone can make their own decisions. You know how many deaths there are in PA of kids under 18 from Covid? Zero. Kids need to be in school. Just to point out another quote where you are not correct on....Even though it hasn't happened in PA yet, it's a matter of when, not if. In any event, kids can and will die from this.(just noticed you said in PA, thought you were saying 0 kids have died from it in general) https://www.nola.com/news/coronavirus/article_613ce6e4-db33-11ea-a663-6f107f896ea1.html and another .... https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/23/health/florida-coronavirus-child-death/index.html Although it may be "rare" for the time being, the fact is children can and are dying from it and it will continue if things don't change. And another.... https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/covid-child-death-georgia-youngest-coronavirus-case-trump-children-immune-a9659641.html And another... https://www.fresnobee.com/news/local/article244641897.html You get the drift..... Edited August 19, 2020 by Patrick_Duffy
shoshin Posted August 19, 2020 Posted August 19, 2020 (edited) 41 minutes ago, Patrick_Duffy said: Just to point out another quote where you are not correct on....Even though it hasn't happened in PA yet, it's a matter of when, not if. In any event, kids can and will die from this.(just noticed you said in PA, thought you were saying 0 kids have died from it in general) https://www.nola.com/news/coronavirus/article_613ce6e4-db33-11ea-a663-6f107f896ea1.html and another .... https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/23/health/florida-coronavirus-child-death/index.html Although it may be "rare" for the time being, the fact is children can and are dying from it and it will continue if things don't change. And another.... https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/covid-child-death-georgia-youngest-coronavirus-case-trump-children-immune-a9659641.html And another... https://www.fresnobee.com/news/local/article244641897.html You get the drift..... Kids die of lots of things and it's tragic. Every number is a person and a heartbreak. But we accept some risk in life. 82 kids under 18 have died from Covid to date according to the CDC (March-Aug 12). The number of those kids with comorbidities is likely in line with other demographics, that is, high. For reference, 166 kids died of flu in 2019-20. So we are probably accepting something like the same risk we accept for kids and the flu--something we do without discussing it every year. Edited August 19, 2020 by shoshin 1
Figster Posted August 19, 2020 Posted August 19, 2020 (edited) 5 hours ago, Patrick_Duffy said: Look, I'm sorry if I may have gotten out of hand with this. My wife is a teacher. Her, myself and my son have conditions that likely would kill us all if she brings this ***** home. So this really hits home for me. The ones that are going to open won't last long mainly because people can't/won't do what they are supposed to which puts everyone elses life at risk. So it is what it is, right now, IMO they should remain virtual for the time being. In any event, I got to take care of some stuff. Good luck to you and yours. I'm not for public schools opening back up to protect the teachers and all the senior citizens that could be put in harms way because of it. I will say this though, with a good testing program in place it could help weed out and quarantine a big part of the population that is walking the streets with Covid 19 IMO. You can take NFL football games and with a fast method of testing accomplish the same thing. Dog sniffers, temp check, the whole works. Take saliva samples from each ticket holder. You could also perform a real time in depth study of how Covid is transmitted in large gatherings IMO. Some of you guys may have seen my idea in another thread. Sounds to time consuming and complicated right? Or is it? I know more than one person right now that has symptoms of Covid 19 and is not reporting it. If it can happen in my small town its happening everywhere. So what do you do? Covid 19 hotline needed perhaps? Edited August 19, 2020 by Figster 1
Bill from NYC Posted August 19, 2020 Posted August 19, 2020 1 hour ago, Patrick_Duffy said: Teachers don't get paid nearly enough. What are you talking about. Public school teachers on Long Island at top pay can pull in WELL over 100K, great benefits, and let's not forget 4 months or so off per year. Seriously, far more than 100K. I'm friends with many of them, and some have told me that they want to go back to school.
Patrick Duffy Posted August 19, 2020 Posted August 19, 2020 (edited) 30 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said: Public school teachers on Long Island at top pay can pull in WELL over 100K, great benefits, and let's not forget 4 months or so off per year. Seriously, far more than 100K. I'm friends with many of them, and some have told me that they want to go back to school. In my state my wife makes 33,000/uyr and she has a masters. I will rephrase and say in some states teachers don't get paid jack ***** * And before you look up Cali's teachers salaries I'm not in California just because it says so next to my avatar on a message board. Just wanted to point that out in case you think that. Edited August 19, 2020 by Patrick_Duffy 1
Patrick Duffy Posted August 19, 2020 Posted August 19, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, shoshin said: Kids die of lots of things and it's tragic. Every number is a person and a heartbreak. But we accept some risk in life. 82 kids under 18 have died from Covid to date according to the CDC (March-Aug 12). The number of those kids with comorbidities is likely in line with other demographics, that is, high. For reference, 166 kids died of flu in 2019-20. So we are probably accepting something like the same risk we accept for kids and the flu--something we do without discussing it every year. Yes people die. I bet you will be singing a different tune if your kids (god forbid) bring this ***** home and you or one of your family members get sick and ends up on a ventilator and god forbid dying, just because you insist on sending your kid to school. Sadly it seems that's what it's going to take for people with your mindset to start taking safety first from this thing more seriously. I have lost 3 dear friends to this, one was healthy and nothing wrong with him(38 yrs old) the other 2 had diabetes (one was 39 and other 41). they all 3 are dead, yet they took precautions and wore mask etc. This thing still found a way to them. It sad that it will take people with your mindset for this to hit closer to home for you to start putting safety first and foremost. Well, all I can is good luck to you. 35 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said: Public school teachers on Long Island at top pay can pull in WELL over 100K, great benefits, and let's not forget 4 months or so off per year. Seriously, far more than 100K. I'm friends with many of them, and some have told me that they want to go back to school. Well yeah, we all WANT them to go back to school. We all WANT things back to normal. The fact is it can't be done safely right now in a lot of places. Edited August 19, 2020 by Patrick_Duffy
shoshin Posted August 19, 2020 Posted August 19, 2020 34 minutes ago, Patrick_Duffy said: Yes people die. I bet you will be singing a different tune if your kids (god forbid) bring this ***** home and you or one of your family members get sick and ends up on a ventilator and god forbid dying, just because you insist on sending your kid to school. Sadly it seems that's what it's going to take for people with your mindset to start taking safety first from this thing more seriously. I have lost 3 dear friends to this, one was healthy and nothing wrong with him(38 yrs old) the other 2 had diabetes (one was 39 and other 41). they all 3 are dead, yet they took precautions and wore mask etc. This thing still found a way to them. It sad that it will take people with your mindset for this to hit closer to home for you to start putting safety first and foremost. Well, all I can is good luck to you. Well yeah, we all WANT them to go back to school. We all WANT things back to normal. The fact is it can't be done safely right now in a lot of places. I'm sorry for your losses. n of 1 always hurts but that's not how we live. My friend died from a reaction to a common antibiotic. My neighbor died in a car accident. My grandfather died young from heart disease, likely due to eating poorly. My daughter is 18 and I let her drive, knowing that she's at the pinnacle of high risk groups for driving deaths. There is risk in life that we all choose to live with each day. The risk from Covid for those without risk factors is very very small.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted August 19, 2020 Author Posted August 19, 2020 4 hours ago, shoshin said: I'm not mad about it, I'm concerned and worried about it. NY is allowing schools to open. Many will but probably most will let fear guide them. Here in PA, a lot of private schools are opening, public ones not. GA, TX, and FL are opening schools. I'm concerned and worried about schools not reopening also, but isn't it an example of a polarizing discussion to cast it as "either reopen, or let fear guide you"? There are very real concerns, real concerns not fear-based - on both sides. You (and @BillfromNYC) have some very valid points that there's a significant equity issue when schools don't reopen. Parents who are working 2-3 minimum wage jobs don't have a lot of time to supervise their kids at the best of times and in fact may routinely leave them to get themselves dressed and off to school and back from school on their own, let alone be available to supervise school in the middle of the day. Having to try to work from home while supervising your kids' school is 100% privileged problem. On the other hand, If the kids aren't on their own, it's usually an elder - a grandma or a great-aunt - who is caring for them.That's a very real, non-fear-based concern, a damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't situation. If schools reopen and covid-19 spreads, the kids come home to the very people who are most vulnerable. I read an article about a school superintendent of a poor rural district in NM where 75% of the students had one or more grandparent in the home with them. At least if the kids are online learning, they aren't going out and bringing covid-19 back home with them to Grandma. On the other hand, what help or support do the kids get for online learning? Yes, schools may provide computers and mobile hot spots, but not all kids can relate to online learning or focus effectively, especially with no one at home to say "Do It!" or to provide that critical extra explanation that can mean the difference between frustration and "getting it". And yes, breakfast and lunch at school may be the most reliable source of food for some of those kids. A lot of school districts with high % free lunch (like the district where I reside actually) are trying to fill in - we have an organization called "Weekend on Wheels" that has provided food for school kids on weekends, holidays, and over the summer and they are providing food now. Our community has multiple "food pantry" boxes set up and a lot of us "shop for the box" when we do our grocery trip every couple of weeks. The boxes are always stocked and the stock turns over. But it's more hit and miss and requires the same people who aren't reliably providing food for the kids to get to the meal distribution point or the pantry box. I have a level of cynicism about how consistently that happens. On the other hand...the very schools that have the highest percentage of free lunch kids, are usually the ones that have the least ability to do the things that help schools reopen safely - to spatially distance, to provide masks and hand sanitizer, to organize the school into small 9 or 10 student "pods" with one teacher or aide. It's not an easy issue or decision. I think there are ways to mitigate, and to open sensibly, but instead of hearing discussion of how to do it what I hear amounts to "just reopen or you're motivated by fear" (which is not exactly what you said, Shoshin, but edging in that direction).
WEATHER DOT COM Posted August 19, 2020 Posted August 19, 2020 Why has outdoor schooling not even been discussed? It seems like a pretty good place to start.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted August 19, 2020 Author Posted August 19, 2020 2 minutes ago, wAcKy ZeBrA said: Why has outdoor schooling not even been discussed? It seems like a pretty good place to start. What do you do when it rains? What do you do when there isn't an outdoor space associated with the school? How do you keep the kids from roaming off? There are a lot of possibilities, and sure, outdoors is one and there are probably solutions to all the above questions. But I don't hear a lot of possibilities (and what it would take to make them happen) being discussed. It's just "reopen, reopen, reopen!" at least around here.
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