ziltoid Posted August 17, 2020 Posted August 17, 2020 3 minutes ago, Niagara Bill said: Agree....big difference between activity exercise and standing in a crowded bar or concert so their peers can see the new dress. You can have a beer with you 4 best buds without being back to back with 75 other people you wouldn't pi?? on if they were on fire. A bubble of friends is necessary for most folks. But if they leave the rink and go to the local bar and stand back to back with others who do not respect social distance then they are selfish. Even pro ball p,Ayers are wearing masks. I bet we see some NFL players in masks. Yes, I would kill to play some hockey and forgo the locker room beers right now in NY. Maybe in the next month or two. I think we're on the same page - but it surprises me when I still see people hiding in their 1 room apartment going on 5 months without leaving...
Niagara Bill Posted August 17, 2020 Posted August 17, 2020 1 hour ago, shoshin said: The Vietnam conflict didn't have kids out of school and cause 10% unemployment and countless shuttering of small businesses and keep people from going to the hospital and all the crushing health issues happening now. A bubble of friends doesn't keep open the corner store. And it really doesn't send kinds back to school and a system that is vital to a lot of Americans. You can think of the guys having the beer at the bar as selfish. I just think of them as "not me," as I'll choose to not do that. But based on numbers, we are long past a time where the government should be mandating what the guys at the bar are allowed to do. If we see a rise like happened in NYC at the beginning that region can maybe justify more but so far, EVERY place in the world that got hit hard once has seen no serious rise since. Not one, no matter how strict or lenient they are. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/17/health/coronavirus-herd-immunity.html?action=click&module=Top Stories&pgtype=Homepage Long past the time government should be mandating...seriously. the flippin government did not mandate long enough and now in many places it got out of control when 2 or 3 more weeks would have reduced it significantly. Science talks of a new wave as a great possibility. Whether that is NYC or Jersey or New Orleans or LA. We have yet to be able to see what may happen. Nothing? Worse the second time around? Same again? But selfish people I have no patience for. If a second wave comes it is on them. It is them that makes the school venture more risky. It is them that makes corner stores more risky, and all commerce hurt longer. 7 minutes ago, BeerLeagueHockey said: Yes, I would kill to play some hockey and forgo the locker room beers right now in NY. Maybe in the next month or two. I think we're on the same page - but it surprises me when I still see people hiding in their 1 room apartment going on 5 months without leaving... Hiding is just as bad as ignoring. Agreed! If authorities could trust people to honor rules hockey could be possible. BB could be possible.
TBBills Posted August 17, 2020 Posted August 17, 2020 24 minutes ago, BeerLeagueHockey said: Yes, I would kill to play some hockey and forgo the locker room beers right now in NY. Maybe in the next month or two. I think we're on the same page - but it surprises me when I still see people hiding in their 1 room apartment going on 5 months without leaving... This people"Hiding" never left the apartment to begin with... So no change. 1
shoshin Posted August 17, 2020 Posted August 17, 2020 50 minutes ago, Niagara Bill said: Science talks of a new wave as a great possibility. Whether that is NYC or Jersey or New Orleans or LA. We have yet to be able to see what may happen. Nothing? Worse the second time around? Same again? Saying , "Who knows" is not a reason to levy life-altering restrictions. There is not yet any evidence that this is coming back. All evidence shows exactly the opposite. 50 minutes ago, Niagara Bill said: But selfish people I have no patience for. If a second wave comes it is on them. It is them that makes the school venture more risky. It is them that makes corner stores more risky, and all commerce hurt longer. The school thing makes no sense. Kids need to be in school.
Niagara Bill Posted August 17, 2020 Posted August 17, 2020 2 minutes ago, shoshin said: Saying , "Who knows" is not a reason to levy life-altering restrictions. There is not yet any evidence that this is coming back. All evidence shows exactly the opposite. The school thing makes no sense. Kids need to be in school. There is no evidence it is not coming back, reappearance has happened in most locales. School is necessary, agreed, but success is challenged because of those who do not follow or care about masks, gatherings, social distance etc.
shoshin Posted August 17, 2020 Posted August 17, 2020 1 minute ago, Niagara Bill said: There is no evidence it is not coming back, reappearance has happened in most locales. Do you think it's appropriate to legislate based on no evidence? IT, ES, SE, US (regionally), UK have had no second death/hospital spike after an initial. Nowhere will be at 0, even after the vaccines come because many won't take them.
Niagara Bill Posted August 17, 2020 Posted August 17, 2020 2 minutes ago, shoshin said: Do you think it's appropriate to legislate based on no evidence? IT, ES, SE, US (regionally), UK have had no second death/hospital spike after an initial. Nowhere will be at 0, even after the vaccines come because many won't take them. They have Not yet had major rebump but have also taken to masks, distancing etc better than US. US has too many political positions. Trump, governors, mayors who support the freedom issue. I consider that with ut government rules for speed limits we would have more road deaths. Just add masks and distancing to that line. A vaccine may never be ready, may not last or virus mutates. We need to get on with life using the guidelines to protect all of society. If you could eliminate 99% of cancers with a mask for the next 12 months would you?
shoshin Posted August 17, 2020 Posted August 17, 2020 10 minutes ago, Niagara Bill said: They have Not yet had major rebump but have also taken to masks, distancing etc better than US. Not in Sweden. UK is not compliant with masks. No return of cases. 10 minutes ago, Niagara Bill said: US has too many political positions. Trump, governors, mayors who support the freedom issue. I consider that with ut government rules for speed limits we would have more road deaths. Just add masks and distancing to that line. A vaccine may never be ready, may not last or virus mutates. We need to get on with life using the guidelines to protect all of society. Going on with life is the priority. 10 minutes ago, Niagara Bill said: If you could eliminate 99% of cancers with a mask for the next 12 months would you? Prove it can happen and yes. But we don't even have that 99% statistic with Covid.
Niagara Bill Posted August 17, 2020 Posted August 17, 2020 22 minutes ago, shoshin said: Not in Sweden. UK is not compliant with masks. No return of cases. Going on with life is the priority. Prove it can happen and yes. But we don't even have that 99% statistic with Covid. You have prove that masks, washing, sanitizing eliminates spread. Sweden did have rise, UK is mostly compliant. The US is the proof that non compliance causes more cases and more deaths. Simple math. One thing is certain...the US has suffered and at least partially responsible is terrible .leadership and politics. And it continues to suffer, no letup seen. We do need to get on with life. Economy is a huge concern. Poverty potential and strife for many is worrisome. But maybe new norms. Offices us g split shifts to reduce distancing and transit crowding, school have different hours, masks in public, 15,000 viewing a game rather than 60000, more drive in theatres instead of packed shows, more aisle space in stores rather than less, etc etc. But an orderly controlled public with good leadership and private sector support can put us back together faster and permanently as opposed to the freedom nonsense. Freedom is drinking the whiskey of choice it is not allowing moonshine that potentially kills the public
BillsFan4 Posted August 17, 2020 Posted August 17, 2020 (click on tweet to see all the stories. Here’s one video:
shoshin Posted August 17, 2020 Posted August 17, 2020 25 minutes ago, BillsFan4 said: it does? Then what about the spikes in Texas, California, Florida? They all dealt with covid cases early on in March, April. They all had 10’s of thousands of covid cases and shut down to get them under control. Now they’re dealing with another spike in cases. Those states never had a spike, which they have now and are coming down from them. In at least tow cases, TX and FL (as well as AZ), they have almost no restrictions in place. 25 minutes ago, BillsFan4 said: What about the 2nd spikes in places like Germany, Japan, some places in Europe? Iran after they opened schools. China. South Korea. Etc. https://www.cnbc.com/2020/05/12/coronavirus-some-asian-countries-see-second-wave-resurgence-in-cases.html That article predicted China, SK, and JP would see a "resurgence." That hasn't happened in the first two, and the last, see below. So that was a bad prediction. 25 minutes ago, BillsFan4 said: https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/03/world/coronavirus-second-wave-resurgence-intl/index.html This claimed to show resurgence in Germany, Australia, Japan, and Hong Kong. Germany: a very small rise in cases, no particular "wave." I bet that's happening in geographies that didn't get hit in the spring. Australia: They barely got hit in the spring, were vulnerable (like NZ), and now are dealing with what will likely be their only big spike. Japan: Never got hit the first time, they have had one day over 10 deaths in the last two months. Hong Kong: Same as AU and seem to be on the decline. 25 minutes ago, BillsFan4 said: https://www.theguardian.com/world/ng-interactive/2020/jun/25/revealed-data-shows-10-countries-risking-coronavirus-second-wave-as-lockdown-relaxed This article is mostly about predictions, not showing second waves. 25 minutes ago, BillsFan4 said: We know this virus can easily make a resurgence, especially if safety guidelines are not followed. I don't think we "know" that. I'll stop keeping going in this thread since it's being driven by me today but I hope some of this is something people found interesting.
BillsFan4 Posted August 17, 2020 Posted August 17, 2020 (edited) 45 minutes ago, shoshin said: Those states never had a spike, which they have now and are coming down from them. In at least tow cases, TX and FL (as well as AZ), they have almost no restrictions in place. That article predicted China, SK, and JP would see a "resurgence." That hasn't happened in the first two, and the last, see below. So that was a bad prediction. This claimed to show resurgence in Germany, Australia, Japan, and Hong Kong. Germany: a very small rise in cases, no particular "wave." I bet that's happening in geographies that didn't get hit in the spring. Australia: They barely got hit in the spring, were vulnerable (like NZ), and now are dealing with what will likely be their only big spike. Japan: Never got hit the first time, they have had one day over 10 deaths in the last two months. Hong Kong: Same as AU and seem to be on the decline. This article is mostly about predictions, not showing second waves. I don't think we "know" that. I'll stop keeping going in this thread since it's being driven by me today but I hope some of this is something people found interesting. Florida covid timeline: https://www.clickorlando.com/news/local/2020/03/20/timeline-the-spread-of-coronavirus-in-florida/ march 26th: 2500 cases April 1st: state wide stay at home order issued April 3rd: 10,000 cases. April 7th: 14,000+ cases April 13th: 21,000+ cases April 27th: 27,000+ confirmed cases Then they started to reopen the beginning of June iirc and cases continued to climb. Texas covid timeline: https://www.texastribune.org/2020/07/31/coronavirus-timeline-texas/ March 19th: Texas dept. of public health services declares a public health disaster declared for the first time since 1901. March 26th: stay at home order goes into effect April 9th: 10,200 confirmed cases April 17th: 17,000+ confirmed cases April 23rd: 21,000+ cases May 1st: 29,000+ cases May 18th: 48,000+ cases May 29th: 61,000+ cases How many cases does a state have to deal with before they’re considered to have had an outbreak? - At the time NY shut down they had 21,000 cases. Everyone agreed they had a big outbreak. - Massachusetts was said to have dealt with an early outbreak. They had less than 1000 cases at the time they issued stay at home orders. - MI had 1,791 cases when they issued their stay at home orders. - NJ had 1,327 at the time of the stay at home order. Those are all places in the north that people said had early outbreaks. I think we agree on why places like Texas and Florida are seeing their outbreaks continue - lax restrictions. They all dealt with covid cases early, just like states in the north. They just reopen much differently (or never really shut down at all in some cases). But IMO they never had to have this current outbreak happen if they had better followed the CDC reopening guidelines like some other states have. We did a “national pause” for a reason - to get covid outbreaks under control. Some covid cases after reopening is unavoidable, I agree. But these big outbreaks we are seeing now were avoidable IMO. What was the point of the lockdowns if not to get these cases under control? They’re not dealing with covid now for the first time. States in the north don’t have herd immunity that is protecting them from 2nd outbreaks. They’re just following the CDC reopening guidelines strictly, and so far it’s working. Now, that’ll only last as long as people continue to follow the guidelines. Edit- as far as other countries, I think the issue is what they consider an new outbreak vs. what we consider a new outbreak. Our definition seems to be much different than theirs. Most countries seem to have a lower threshold for what is considered an outbreak by their government. Edited August 17, 2020 by BillsFan4 1
Hapless Bills Fan Posted August 17, 2020 Author Posted August 17, 2020 On 8/16/2020 at 4:24 AM, OldTimeAFLGuy said: ...sounds like the generally accepted protocol in the scientific community is a Three Phase Trial process......yet it appears that (if I read correctly) that Russia short circuited the Three Phase Process for their vaccine and is looking for legitimacy by injecting Putin's daughter....I'm confident the FDA would demand the Three Phase Process followed by extensive review before any approval(s).....however, could the "Russian vaccine" or others outside the US infiltrate via the black market with potentially irreparable harm?.... Yes, theoretically, Russian vaccine could show up "black market" here Absolutely the FDA will insist upon a phase III trial - and more to the point, so will the drug manufacturers unless they are granted such a blanket Immunity from liability that it would make the current situation seem like a forest of spikes. No one wants to bring a vaccine to market that makes people sick or has unpredicted side effects. 3 hours ago, shoshin said: Do you think it's appropriate to legislate based on no evidence? IT, ES, SE, US (regionally), UK have had no second death/hospital spike after an initial. Nowhere will be at 0, even after the vaccines come because many won't take them. I think this blanket statement "US have had no second death/hospital spike after an initial" is completely incorrect. However, I won't debate it unless you tell me what you consider an initial outbreak or spike, because the response I've gotten in showing that yes, there have been spikes in the same regions, no question, is to define the initial outbreak as "too small, not an outbreak". No offense but I don't want to waste my time.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted August 17, 2020 Author Posted August 17, 2020 14 hours ago, shoshin said: Mindset question. We beat the curve for hospitalizations a long time ago. Even in states that were relatively open, they made it through the resource crunch. Knowing that we’ve had much worse, endured much worse, and are seeing such awful consequences of shutdowns, why have we not bonded together in a positive way and gotten back to living? (See India) Why are we as a nation so latched on to the fear? When did flatten the curve/prepare for the wave become never reopen? My downtown commercial area is still a ghost town. Restaurants not allowed to reopen for indoor dining. Voting being discussed as an isssue. Schools closed. People may see this as a cavalier call to toss all masks and go to 5 rock concerts. It’s not. But where’s the urgency to preserve our way of living and mental well being? Question: where do you get the information that "we beat the curve for hospitalizations a long time ago"? https://covidactnow.org/?s=891176 Now, for those who saw this map a couple weeks ago, it is very good news. Much of the US is no longer "red" by their criteria. But let's click on a state and look at its ICU "headspace" , meaning how close is it to capacity? Here's Georgia. 86%. But I clicked on a random county in the South of the state, Decatur, and it said "100% of headroom used" https://covidactnow.org/us/ga/county/decatur_county?s=891176 Scrolling down the list, it appears that is the situation for ICU space in 44 of Georgia's 159 counties. Objectively, that just doesn't sound like "beat the curve long ago" Florida: 95% of headroom used. 37 of Florida's 67 counties say the same. Again: doesn't sound like "beat the curve for hospitalizations long ago". By the way, I would say Miami Dade County had a significant earlier outbreak in April, and they are currently at 97% ICU headroom For comparison, let's look at an "Orange" state "at risk of outbreak", Missouri Overall, the hospital picture doesn't look too bad. 17% ICU headroom used. But 16 counties are at 100% of ICU headroom, and by the way a lot of the counties with a - listed ....that's not because their ICUs are fine, it's because they have none. By the way, I would say St Louis County had a significant outbreak in April as well, and is now surging again. The hospital capacity
shoshin Posted August 18, 2020 Posted August 18, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: Question: where do you get the information that "we beat the curve for hospitalizations a long time ago"? https://covidactnow.org/?s=891176 Now, for those who saw this map a couple weeks ago, it is very good news. Much of the US is no longer "red" by their criteria. But let's click on a state and look at its ICU "headspace" , meaning how close is it to capacity? Here's Georgia. 86%. But I clicked on a random county in the South of the state, Decatur, and it said "100% of headroom used" https://covidactnow.org/us/ga/county/decatur_county?s=891176 Scrolling down the list, it appears that is the situation for ICU space in 44 of Georgia's 159 counties. Objectively, that just doesn't sound like "beat the curve long ago" Florida: 95% of headroom used. 37 of Florida's 67 counties say the same. Again: doesn't sound like "beat the curve for hospitalizations long ago". By the way, I would say Miami Dade County had a significant earlier outbreak in April, and they are currently at 97% ICU headroom For comparison, let's look at an "Orange" state "at risk of outbreak", Missouri Overall, the hospital picture doesn't look too bad. 17% ICU headroom used. But 16 counties are at 100% of ICU headroom, and by the way a lot of the counties with a - listed ....that's not because their ICUs are fine, it's because they have none. By the way, I would say St Louis County had a significant outbreak in April as well, and is now surging again. The hospital capacity What we proved is that we can beat the hospital curve long ago. As to the current data: Georgia Florida From Covid Tracking Project but the state data tells the same story. Once the big spike happens, and it happens everywhere, it only happens once. So far, every state and area except NYC Metro, which got mashed by more cases and at a time when we had bad treatment protocols, has been able to handle the hospitalization spike. And no place has had two big spikes. Not here or anywhere. We had two big spikes in the US but the second was an area where one never had the big spike. Florida (never closed), Texas (never closed), and Cali (still large parts closed) are giant population centers that are exiting their peaks and will drop (NOCal may still get hit--it has not had a big spike but a consistent wash of cases) just like the Northeast has. And that's the point: We need to get back to being open because the toll now being taken is going to be much longer lasting than what happens in the next 6-9 months. The idea that we've latched on to fear and refuse to reopen is not what anyone signed up for in April. We have beaten the curve. St. Louis in April doesn't look like there was a big outbreak at all. It appears to have spiked in July/August. I admittedly have dedicated very little energy to following St. Louis, but here's the case graph. Edited August 18, 2020 by shoshin
shoshin Posted August 18, 2020 Posted August 18, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: Yes, theoretically, Russian vaccine could show up "black market" here Absolutely the FDA will insist upon a phase III trial - and more to the point, so will the drug manufacturers unless they are granted such a blanket Immunity from liability that it would make the current situation seem like a forest of spikes. No one wants to bring a vaccine to market that makes people sick or has unpredicted side effects. I think this blanket statement "US have had no second death/hospital spike after an initial" is completely incorrect. However, I won't debate it unless you tell me what you consider an initial outbreak or spike, because the response I've gotten in showing that yes, there have been spikes in the same regions, no question, is to define the initial outbreak as "too small, not an outbreak". No offense but I don't want to waste my time. I said the US regionally has not seen two spikes. Once an area has a big spike up in cases/hospitalizations, it doesn't have a second one. By current testing measures, I doubt you see two separate 3-4 week periods with 15-25% positive test results. I have been watching lots of data and I see no single place where it happened. I can tell you that in my state of PA, it looks like we had two rises (more like a spike and a rise), but if you look at what happened, SEPA (Philly area) had its spike in April and SWPA (Pittsburgh) had their outbreak in June. Just regional pops. Philly has been slowly declining since June and on a sharp decline from May to June before then. Philly looks like most places after the big wave hits, flat: Someone above said Florida spiked in April. It definitely did not. Nor did TX or CA or AZ. (Wish I could paste Florida data but I'm at the data paste limit.) I'm not saying don't wear a mask. I'm not saying don't take reasonable distancing measures. But I am saying, we need to be open. We've proven we can handle this and that's something to take pride in and get back to taking care of ourselves and our country in ways other than "shutdown." The at risk population is the average person who's dying: 79 with comorbidities in a nursing home. Let's take great care of them. Focus energy on them. But my friend's restaurant needs customers. My kid needs to be in school. My friend's kid needs to be in school so she can work. And we need to get back our mental health. A late add as I just saw this graph (the second chart, though the first is solid too). The regions are sliced too large to tell this whole story but the data is very clear in the Northeast and South: Edited August 18, 2020 by shoshin
Figster Posted August 18, 2020 Posted August 18, 2020 2 hours ago, shoshin said: I said the US regionally has not seen two spikes. Once an area has a big spike up in cases/hospitalizations, it doesn't have a second one. By current testing measures, I doubt you see two separate 3-4 week periods with 15-25% positive test results. I have been watching lots of data and I see no single place where it happened. I can tell you that in my state of PA, it looks like we had two rises (more like a spike and a rise), but if you look at what happened, SEPA (Philly area) had its spike in April and SWPA (Pittsburgh) had their outbreak in June. Just regional pops. Philly has been slowly declining since June and on a sharp decline from May to June before then. Philly looks like most places after the big wave hits, flat: Someone above said Florida spiked in April. It definitely did not. Nor did TX or CA or AZ. (Wish I could paste Florida data but I'm at the data paste limit.) I'm not saying don't wear a mask. I'm not saying don't take reasonable distancing measures. But I am saying, we need to be open. We've proven we can handle this and that's something to take pride in and get back to taking care of ourselves and our country in ways other than "shutdown." The at risk population is the average person who's dying: 79 with comorbidities in a nursing home. Let's take great care of them. Focus energy on them. But my friend's restaurant needs customers. My kid needs to be in school. My friend's kid needs to be in school so she can work. And we need to get back our mental health. A late add as I just saw this graph (the second chart, though the first is solid too). The regions are sliced too large to tell this whole story but the data is very clear in the Northeast and South: Proved we can handle this? Over 170,000 deaths? and not done yet? How can a nurse or staff member of a senior living facility safely protect its residents living in a community or country for that matter where Covid 19 is out of control? A virus that can travel as far and fast as one person can carry it in a day? Caregiver, same problem. The US has millions of vulnerable citizens over the age of 65. 1
shoshin Posted August 18, 2020 Posted August 18, 2020 (edited) 6 hours ago, Figster said: Proved we can handle this? Over 170,000 deaths? and not done yet? How can a nurse or staff member of a senior living facility safely protect its residents living in a community or country for that matter where Covid 19 is out of control? A virus that can travel as far and fast as one person can carry it in a day? Caregiver, same problem. The US has millions of vulnerable citizens over the age of 65. We blew our window to “handle this” months ago. Our leaders failed us, both federally and at the state levels. But that ship has sailed. We can take it up with them in future elections. As a country, we cannot stay closed forever and we have a good understanding of what being open means: no spikes, hospitals can handle it, and we see a predictable fatality rate. We have other predictable diseases that we manage. We need to manage this now and urgently band together to move forward rebuilding what we’ve lost. So you test and contact trace and clean and enact distancing and ventilate and pod and etc to keep the most vulnerable as safe as possible. By the way, my nursing home relatives would rather see us than be in lock down. By like 1000000000%. Edited August 18, 2020 by shoshin
BillsFan4 Posted August 18, 2020 Posted August 18, 2020 (edited) I didn’t say Florida spiked in April. I said they had a covid outbreak. I don’t see how anyone could say that 30,000 cases in Florida isn’t an outbreak. Again, I guess it comes down to our definitions of an outbreak. 30,000+ cases certainly qualifies in my book (and most experts). Florida and Texas has more cases in March and April than numerous places in the northeast that were said to have outbreaks. So why are Florida and Texas having a bigger outbreak now than the places in the north that dealt with lower case numbers before their lockdowns? Why don’t you think a place can have a 2nd outbreaks? What do you think is stopping a 2nd outbreak besides our mitigation measures? Herd immunity? Because we have not reached herd immunity anywhere in the world that I am aware of. Definitely not anywhere in the US. Not even close. What else would prevent a 2nd outbreak from being possible? Herd immunity is the only thing that I am aware of. Otherwise the virus can easily spread to the millions of people that haven’t yet been infected. We can mitigate the spread with safety measures, but that doesn’t mean an outbreak isn’t possible. Why are we still seeing 500-1500 people dying from covid every day? Is it still all just old people in nursing homes and people with pre-existing conditions (it’s not...)? Why aren’t we protecting them yet 5 months into the pandemic? Everyone makes it sound so easy. What do we do, completely isolate them? And that would somehow be ok? Everyone else can live their life like normal, unless you’re one of the 10’s of millions who fall into the higher risk categories? Then you don’t get that same right to live your life like normal? You have to stay isolated while everyone else gets to live their life? Why can’t we just suppress the spread of this virus like most other countries (and some US states) are trying to do? Also, if we flattened the hospital curve (which we clearly didn’t, as hapless showed), then why were hospitals in Arizona sending patients out of state? Why did Gov. DeSantis call in 1500 additional nurses to help with the covid fight? Why did a couple Texas hospitals announce that they were almost completely out of space? Hopsitals may not have been completely overrun but they’ve come damn close to capacity or reached capacity. It’s happened again and again in the places that disregard the guidelines. And Again, I don’t think this should be our bar to clear. It’s a really freaking low bar. We should be trying to suppress the spread of this virus. Not just barely keep hospitals from being overwhelmed. What about all our doctors and nurses on the front lines? And the terrible stories of what they’ve went through? We don’t owe it to them to try to limit the spread? Just reopen? Also, In many places, people haven’t gone back to their normal habits even though restrictions have been lifted. So how does opening up without suppressing this virus first fix that? People still aren’t going to go back to living life like normal if they don’t feel safe. The economy still isn’t going to fully rebound until we suppress the spread of this virus. What places in the country do you think are closed? Seems like most places are open. Maybe not fully everywhere, but we see the consequences of that. They may be following the CDC reopening guidelines, which is a good thing! Here in NY everything is reopening. Just slowly and as safely as possible. Nursing homes can have visitors. They’re just restricting the numbers (smart!). Look at Texas, AZ, Florida, etc. Places that opened with no regard for the guidelines. They’re getting slammed by the virus. Thankfully it seems to be trending in the right direction now, but they still got slammed again compared to places in the north that followed the CDC reopening guidelines. So is that what you think every state should do? Disregard the guidelines and reopen everything immediately? Now, If you’re saying that we need to just keep following the reopening guidelines and continue to reopen safely (like some states have been doing), then I agree. What we really need is a nation wide coordinated plan with the federal govt. truly joining the fight but I’ve lost all hope for that. Btw, we haven’t even seen what this virus can do during flu season yet... Edited August 18, 2020 by BillsFan4 1
Halloween Land Posted August 18, 2020 Posted August 18, 2020 8 minutes ago, BillsFan4 said: Now, If you’re saying that we need to just keep following the reopening guidelines and continue to reopen safely (like some states have been doing), then I agree. That's the best way to do it. The truth is you can't avoid diseases, we all get sick every year whether it's the common cold or the flu. Even with vaccines for the flu, we still get it sometimes. So my point is most likely we will all get the coronavirus, whether it's before the vaccine or after. You can't really avoid germs. So we need to open up like we have been doing here in NY State, which has been safe and slowly. Things will never be like it was once was before, but hopefully we can get as close as it was within a year or two.
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