Covid-19 discussion and humor thread [Was: CDC says don't touch your face to avoid Covid19...Vets to the rescue!

[RocCityRoller]

One last thought, When Bill Gates was asked about treatment, since I actually read the whole article:

 

I’m assuming you’re not going to have trouble paying for it, Bill, so you could ask for anything.

In other words, 'since you are rich beyond belief how would you be treated?' (did I interpret that right Hap?)

 

"Well, I don’t want special treatment, so that’s a tricky thing. Other antivirals are two to three months away. Antibodies are two to three months away. We’ve had about a factor-of-two improvement in hospital outcomes already, and that’s with just remdesivir and dexamethasone. These other things will be additive to that."

 

Imagine if he said Hydroxychloroquine and a steroid for an early infection?

 

The fact he said Remdesivir and dexamethasone for a mid level infection shows he is a hack. Right Hap?

Didn't Trump try to stockpile Remdesivir? Obviously worthless.

 

Double Indemnity. Gates is obviously a hack.

How dare he call into question testing protocols, and then advocate the use of Remdesivir, since MSNBC has said it is an obvious failure?

 

Doesn't Bill Gates understand how much money big pharma can make from a late stage cure?

Why bother with early treatments, or mid cycle treatments? That would save lives and slow down the panic. Obviously fake.

Edited August 9, 2020 by RocCityRoller

[RocCityRoller]

My very last shout out since I actually give a d@mn about real people out here paying real bills, for real health care.

• If it was me with an early onset COVID case I would DEMAND Hydroxychloroquine and a steroid, do not f#$k about. Multiple studies have shown it is effective in early cases. It is FDA approved. I am not a doctor, and I am not saying it is a cure all, but it seems to help in a lot of early cases around the world.
• If it was me, and If things are worse, demand Remdesivir and Dexamethasone ASAP. Multiple studies have shown it is effective. I am not a doctor, and I am not saying it is a cure all, but it seems to help in a lot of COVID cases around the world. At worst you know you tried cures shown to be effective in some scientific studies.
• https://www.remdesivir.com/us/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMImMLfmquN6wIVcffjBx0DGQb7EAAYASAAEgI97fD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds
• Do not intubate until there is no other choice. Recovery from intubation is 5-10%

Edited August 9, 2020 by RocCityRoller

[Hapless Bills Fan]

[Hapless Bills Fan]

20 hours ago, RocCityRoller said:

 

Hap. I appreciate you for keeping a clean scientific thread about COVID on this forum. I really do. That is not easy. Even when I posted direct reference published scientific journal articles on that thread (elsivir/ lancet etc), or brought up my own experiences working in real life clinical trials with ACM Labs they were dismissed by you as if written by a third grader. But then again they did not fit your point of view, and by extension, must be wrong. Thank God you were there to tell us all how Elsivir, ACM and Lancet were all wrong.

 

I posted here to avoid that thread on purpose.

 

A lot of us interested in a COVID discussion have avoided that thread on purpose. I have noticed that you seem to speak to everyone on this or the other thread who disagrees with you, or offers scientific studies that don't agree with you like a 2 year old. You should start your posts with 'Bless your heart'. It is quite charming after all. I suppose 'oh do you now?' or 'you don't understand' is the equivalent. I love being spoken to like that. So do other people, it's not off-putting at all. I was the data manager for an ACM Labs study that created a treatment to one of the most rare diseases on earth. Obviously I am a moron and don't understand clinical trials, or FDA requirements at all.

 

Fair enough, I am small potatoes in the field. But people and organizations like Harvey Risch, MD, PhD (Yale Epidemiology), Michigan Health and IHU-Méditerranée Infection in Marseille who are light years ahead of me have all become idiots in your threads too. I feel like I am in good company. After all the US media considers the last three to be hacks these days. I am honestly surprised you are not the surgeon general or medical correspondent to MSNBC. Then again a '4yr journalism major' can call a 30 yr Yale epidemiologist a hack these days, and it takes hold.'

 

Silly me, I took Bill Gates at his word. It is quite strong language for the founder of Microsoft and by extension Outlook, Word, Excel, Access etc to say: The majority of all US tests are completely garbage, wasted. I was obviously too dumb to read the whole article and understand what he said in contect of the rest of the article. I am happy you were there to clarify his meaning for me.

 

Hap. I will no longer offer my opinion, experience or scientific findings to your two threads on COVID. You win. Congratulations. Shut down those who have other evidence, experience, and input. Heck even Dr. Risch has been shut down from some social media platforms. He is a true blue professional in the field, You and I are guys on a message board, but now we are treated equally. Is that scientifically sound?

 

There is so much money to made off of fear, censorship and intellectual falsehoods. Dr. Risch spoke out and was silenced. Just like you try to silence people here who offer scientific data.

 

There is so much power to be gained from fear.

 

Who was I to think I could contribute to your conversation?

 

 

I have gone back and looked to see where real life experience and journal articles were “dismissed as though written by a third grader” or actual scientific data “silenced”

I apologize if that’s the case, but again - I don’t see it.  Given context or different data presented yes.  Silenced no.

 

In this case, you clearly appear to be misinterpreting the article cited, in which Gates is clearly using the term “garbage” and “wasted” in reference to processing time of tests, not alluding to the quality of the tests itself.   You also provide misinformation about the FDA’s ability to withdraw approval under EUA or even of approved tests and drugs, they have this authority and can and do use it, and again, appear to have misunderstood Gate’s point about reimbursement for tests which has to do with reimbursement under the CARES act, Medicare, Medicaid, and other insurance - not with FDA test approval.

 

If just reading the headline and responding is an example of “dismissing what you wrote as though written by a third grader”, maybe the problem isn’t with the assessment on this end.  You could have read the article carefully and clarified its meaning for yourself.  If you don’t, that’s on you, not me.

 

Ironic that you go on about “intellectual falsehoods” here while making this about me, and not about actually addressing or rebutting anything that was said in my response.  That’s almost the definition of “ad hominem” argument response.  If you don’t want to be treated like a third grader, how about this: don’t give a third grade response.  I’m ugly, and my mother dresses me funny, too.

 

Dr Risch is an eminent scientist, but his comments about hydroxychloroquine completely ignored the double blind studies that have been done.  All studies and all evidence are not equal; the quality of the studies count and the “gold standard” for years has been the double blind clinical trial.  All signs point to you’ll dismiss this too but for anyone else curious here’s a reasoned commentary with references and such.  Risch is not the first eminent scientist to forget his training in objective evaluation of evidence in favor of a theory (Linus Pauling, I’m talking about you).  Sometimes people get dismissed not because of some great conspiracy (it’s hard enough to get 15 team members wholeheartedly behind anything, much less an entire scientific community) but because their viewpoint is not supported by the preponderance of the best available evidence.

 

Again, with regard to hydroxychloroquine: if it worked, why wouldn’t countries like India that have a robust generic drug manufacturing capability, clinical trial capabilities, and a crying need for inexpensive effective Covid-19 treatments be all over it?  Instead they’ve moved on to clinical trials of other inexpensive drugs such as ivermectin and doxycycline, which may or may not work - but they’ll gather evidence through double blind clinical trials to figure that out.

 

You could most certainly contribute to THE conversation about Covid, but if your contribution is “I’ll say whatever I like and go off into personal attacks about “intellectual falsehoods” if it’s pointed out that I’m misinterpreting or reading in meaning”, Oh Well.  But that’s YOUR choice, not mine.

 

 

 

[BillsFan4]

 

Quote

But people aren’t getting their tests back quickly enough.

 

Well, that’s just stupidity. The majority of all US tests are completely garbage, wasted. If you don’t care how late the date is and you reimburse at the same level, of course they’re going to take every customer. Because they are making ridiculous money, and it’s mostly rich people that are getting access to that. You have to have the reimbursement system pay a little bit extra for 24 hours, pay the normal fee for 48 hours, and pay nothing [if it isn’t done by then]. And they will fix it overnight.

Seems to me like Gates explained what he meant by “garbage, wasted”, no? 

 

Edited August 9, 2020 by BillsFan4

[BillsFan4]

Btw hapless, I just wanted to say that I truly appreciate everything you’ve done in these threads. I’ve relied on you for factual info since this pandemic began. I don’t know if people appreciate all of the time that goes into all of the posts you’ve made. You dig into research papers and lay out the info for us. I know You’ve spent countless hours putting together posts for this board. For free. For all of us. Out of the goodness of your heart.

 

So, thank you again! It really means a lot to me and I just wanted you to know how much I appreciate it!

 

and I don’t think you talk to people like 2nd graders at all. I think you use logic and reason in your posts.

Edited August 9, 2020 by BillsFan4

[Hapless Bills Fan]

10 hours ago, RocCityRoller said:

My very last shout out since I actually give a d@mn about real people out here paying real bills, for real health care.

• If it was me with an early onset COVID case I would DEMAND Hydroxychloroquine and a steroid, do not f#$k about. Multiple studies have shown it is effective in early cases. It is FDA approved. I am not a doctor, and I am not saying it is a cure all, but it seems to help in a lot of early cases around the world.
• If it was me, and If things are worse, demand Remdesivir and Dexamethasone ASAP. Multiple studies have shown it is effective. I am not a doctor, and I am not saying it is a cure all, but it seems to help in a lot of COVID cases around the world. At worst you know you tried cures shown to be effective in some scientific studies.
• https://www.remdesivir.com/us/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMImMLfmquN6wIVcffjBx0DGQb7EAAYASAAEgI97fD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds
• Do not intubate until there is no other choice. Recovery from intubation is 5-10%

 

I love you all, yes even you @RocCityRoller so I will respond to this.

 

My advice for whatever it's worth, would be to seek out a Medical Professional in whose training and skill one has faith then LET THEM DO THEIR JOB and not "DEMAND" any specific treatment.  Ask polite questions "I read about this, what do you think?" and expect answers, Sure.  DEMAND, no. 

 

If I don't believe that my physician, who spent 4 years gaining specialized training in medical school, at least 3 years internship and residency, and clinical practice beyond that, knows more about the art and science of practicing medicine than I do, what the hell am I paying him or her for?

 

The FDA withdrew its Emergency Use Authorization for use of Hydroxychloroquine (an FDA-approved drug for treatment of malaria and other conditions) for treatment of covid-19 because in multiple double-blind clinical trials in multiple countries (WHO supervised, UK, US) it failed to show benefit - including trials of post-exposure prophylaxis for health care workers.  They are not alone; so did WHO, UK, and India.

The vast majority, at least 80%, of people with early onset Covid-19 symptoms recover without any treatment beyond tylenol, hydration, and deep breathing exercises, and that's the point of questioning publications that claim benefits with no randomization and no control group - what would have happened if those same patients or those carefully age and symptom matched, did not receive that drug?  No control group, no randomization, we don't know!  All drugs have side effects.  Steroids do suppress the immune system which is not necessarily beneficial when fighting an early onset infection vs an infection where cytokine storm or immune over-reaction may be in play.

 

Here are the NIH guidelines on steroid use:

https://www.covid19treatmentguidelines.nih.gov/immune-based-therapy/immunomodulators/corticosteroids/

• On the basis of the preliminary report from the Randomised Evaluation of COVID-19 Therapy (RECOVERY) trial (discussed below), the COVID-19 Treatment Guidelines Panel (the Panel) recommends using dexamethasone 6 mg per day for up to 10 days for the treatment of COVID-19 in patients who are mechanically ventilated (AI) and in patients who require supplemental oxygen but who are not mechanically ventilated (BI).
• The Panel recommends against using dexamethasone for the treatment of COVID-19 in patients who do not require supplemental oxygen (AI).
• If dexamethasone is not available, the Panel recommends using alternative glucocorticoids such as prednisone, methylprednisolone, or hydrocortisone (see Additional Considerations below for dosing recommendations) (AIII).
  
  Quote: "No benefit of dexamethasone was seen in patients who did not require supplemental oxygen at enrollment," ENDquote, ie nobenefit in "early onset" patients.

 

Remdesivir has shown clear benefit in double blind clinical trials, as has the steroid dexamethasone when given where supplemental oxygen needed.

 

By "intubation" I assume you're referring not to intubation per se, but to use of mechanical ventilation, a ventilator (which requires intubation, but I know of no study that intubation per se is harmful).  The Standard of Care these days is to delay ventilator use as long as possible, so I would not second-guess a HCP who told me I needed mechanical ventilation.  I might ask if ECMO (extracorporeal membrane oxygenation) is available and might be helpful in my case - but ECMO has its own risks so again, I would go with their clinical expertise.
 

 

 

[BillsFan4]

 

props to New Zealand! 

[K-9]

59 minutes ago, BillsFan4 said:

 

props to New Zealand! 

[Bad Things]

7 hours ago, K-9 said:

 

I couldn't be prouder on how we all came together to protect each other down here.

As our Prime Minister said at the very beginning of this all... we needed to "go hard and early" against Covid-19.  Fortunately the New Zealand people were resilient enough to take on this challenge and succeed. 

Kia Kaha!

Edited August 10, 2020 by Bad Things

[Hapless Bills Fan]

"An immunologist and a cardiologist are kidnapped. The kidnappers threaten to shoot one of them, but promise to spare whoever has made the greater contribution to humanity. The cardiologist says, “Well, I’ve identified drugs that have saved the lives of millions of people.” Impressed, the kidnappers turn to the immunologist. “What have you done?” they ask. The immunologist says, “The thing is, the immune system is very complicated …” And the cardiologist says, “Just shoot me now.” "
 

Leads off this pretty good article on the immune system from The Atlantic.
Judging by the reaction in this household, one may have had to personally experience an immunologist or two or 5 explaining the immune system to one to fully appreciate the joke.

[The Dean]

3 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

"An immunologist and a cardiologist are kidnapped. The kidnappers threaten to shoot one of them, but promise to spare whoever has made the greater contribution to humanity. The cardiologist says, “Well, I’ve identified drugs that have saved the lives of millions of people.” Impressed, the kidnappers turn to the immunologist. “What have you done?” they ask. The immunologist says, “The thing is, the immune system is very complicated …” And the cardiologist says, “Just shoot me now.” "
 

Leads off this pretty good article on the immune system from The Atlantic.
Judging by the reaction in this household, one may have had to personally experience an immunologist or two or 5 explaining the immune system to one to fully appreciate the joke.

 

That was a very interesting article. Thanks. I shared it with a couple of my doctor friends. 

 

 

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

It had been rightly pointed out in this group that we really don't know what we're putting on our faces and how well it works to block droplet transmission.

 

Well - Now we do, thanks to these folks who built a low-cost test device with a laser, a box, and a cell phone to assess how well different masks did at blocking particles.

Note: they are blocking particles the mask wearer EMITS, not particles the mask wearer breathes IN (I would expect the N95 to kick butt and take names there)

 

https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/early/2020/08/07/sciadv.abd3083?fbclid=IwAR2nZmIlAggEMgJjLUISYaU05YRQA-iwqOkgTZ0Bl5GdHN-tOT4gIgDvjfs

 

1) Fleece neck gaiter literally worse than nothing

2) Bandana pretty bad, cotton knit mask a little bit better

3) N95 and surgical mask the best, but pretty well everything else blocked at least 80% of the particles emitted by the mask wearer

 

 

 

 

 

They didn't test the KN95 masks that have ear loops, did they?  I have to believe they perform better than plain cotton. The KN95's also fit my face far tighter than the surgical mask, too.  Any thoughts?

[Hapless Bills Fan]

13 hours ago, The Dean said:

That was a very interesting article. Thanks. I shared it with a couple of my doctor friends. 

 

You're welcome.  That joke ??

 

Quote

They didn't test the KN95 masks that have ear loops, did they?  I have to believe they perform better than plain cotton. The KN95's also fit my face far tighter than the surgical mask, too.  Any thoughts?

 

They did not.   My guess is that they would perform better than the surgical masks, but that this particular test wouldn't distinguish too much between them and surgical masks.

 

Bear in mind that it's only testing what particles get through the mask when you're speaking, not yelling or screaming or singing.  One may need a tougher test to pick up differences among reasonably good masks.

 

It's also not testing what particles get INTO the mask, ie how well it protects YOU from unmasked potential disease carriers.  That is where I think you'd see a huge difference between N95 > KN95 with ear loops > Suay sew shop mask with filter > surgical masks > other cloth pocket mask with filter > multi-layer cloth masks etc etc etc. (note: this is my inferred order from different published papers). 

 

Individual fit also plays in - ie a poorly fitted N95 or KN95 may perform no better than a surgical mask etc.

And thank you very much for pulling this over here to discuss!

[Figster]

14 hours ago, The Dean said:

 

That was a very interesting article. Thanks. I shared it with a couple of my doctor friends. 

 

 

 

 

They didn't test the KN95 masks that have ear loops, did they?  I have to believe they perform better than plain cotton. The KN95's also fit my face far tighter than the surgical mask, too.  Any thoughts?

On the subject of masks.  It bugs the hell out of me that I keep hearing the same thing over and over again. My mask protects you, your mask protects me, which is all fine and good. If everyone would only wear one, or wear one properly. In a perfect world perhaps. On the other hand  If you are elderly or have underlying health conditions. (Or in close contact with someone fitting this description) I suggest wearing an N95 mask so you can protect yourself as much as possible. We have to many people in this world who aren't worried about protecting anyone. Not themselves or others. It only takes one person walking around a supermarket without a mask to spread Covid 19. I see it everyday. On a personal note I'm wearing an R95 with earloops plus velcro back of head strap. Fits very snug and feels safe enough my 82 year old mom with underlying health conditions has been getting out of the house wearing one ( shopping). While our town is dealing with an outbreak.

 

My advice, wear a good mask people and don't depend on a stranger to protect you.  (eye protection) 

Edited August 10, 2020 by Figster

[Bad Things]

Bugger.

 

After 102 days without community transmission, they found a couple positive Covid cases up in Auckland today.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/300079882/coronavirus-four-cases-of-covid19-community-transmission-confirmed-in-auckland

 

 

[aristocrat]

Japan is having an outbreak currently and are at 2-3 times the new cases from back in april at the beginning.  You can slow this thing down but it is just relentless.  

[Saxum]

6 hours ago, Bad Things said:

Bugger.

 

After 102 days without community transmission, they found a couple positive Covid cases up in Auckland today.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/300079882/coronavirus-four-cases-of-covid19-community-transmission-confirmed-in-auckland

 

 

 

Quote

The Government is urgently trying to work out where the case came from, as no link to the border or overseas travel has been established. 

 

What does "link to the border" mean? New Zealand is a set of islands.

[Bad Things]

1 hour ago, Limeaid said:

 

 

What does "link to the border" mean? New Zealand is a set of islands.

Up until now, all of our cases have been from Kiwis returning home from overseas.  All incoming travelers must go into a 2 week quarantine. 

Unfortunately these new cases haven't been traced back to someone returning to NZ, which means its somewhere in the community. 

[Saxum]

Just now, Bad Things said:

Up until now, all of our cases have been from Kiwis returning home from overseas.  All incoming travelers must go into a 2 week quarantine. 

Unfortunately these new cases haven't been traced back to someone returning to NZ, which means its somewhere in the community. 

 

With this type of virus when you truly isolate those who are just carriers will continue to carry and when restrictions are relaxed they will interact with others who had not been exposed before.  Now you can test to allow people to come out but if someone goes to visit such a carrier then the virus gets out.  You could have some like a retired person who before was not interacting due to quarantine and would stay home most of time but when visitors are not quarantined this happens. 

 

Hopefully the contract tracing will find out who this virus source is but if there is no cure and person's body just keeps it check but does not eliminate what do you do? Quarantine that person indefinitely without contact?

[Figster]

2 hours ago, Limeaid said:

 

With this type of virus when you truly isolate those who are just carriers will continue to carry and when restrictions are relaxed they will interact with others who had not been exposed before.  Now you can test to allow people to come out but if someone goes to visit such a carrier then the virus gets out.  You could have some like a retired person who before was not interacting due to quarantine and would stay home most of time but when visitors are not quarantined this happens. 

 

Hopefully the contract tracing will find out who this virus source is but if there is no cure and person's body just keeps it check but does not eliminate what do you do? Quarantine that person indefinitely without contact?

While we're on the subject of quarantine.

 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/infectious-disease-expert-on-why-he-thinks-us-needs-another-lockdown/vi-BB17OeSE?ocid=xboxntp

Edited August 11, 2020 by Figster