K-9 Posted July 17, 2020 Posted July 17, 2020 30 minutes ago, LB3 said: @K-9 @Warcodered I notice neither of you answered the question. I guess comorbidities don't exist in the Covid hysteria world. Be well fellas. What question, specifically? The one about co-morbities? I can’t answer that. Neither can anyone else at the moment. Why do I get the impression that it’s more about a particular spin put forth by those that think the death count only serves to hurt certain political agendas? And like I said, that’s not the most important issue. It’s the potential the virus has to overrun our healthcare systems as we’ve seen. But that’s a lot harder to spin. 1
Hapless Bills Fan Posted July 17, 2020 Author Posted July 17, 2020 4 hours ago, LB3 said: Your bias is showing. Is it now? What bias is that? I want a pandemic to be handled like the public health emergency it is, with public policy driven by facts about where and what is causing disease outbreaks (many linked to parties, large church services, and bars), and by what public health interventions seem to be effective (masking). If that's bias, Damn Straight, I'm biased. Quote What occurred a month and a half ago? I'm relatively certain that you participated in one. I assume you're kitty-catting around saying "Hey, Hapless, didn't you attend a BLM protest?" Yes, I did. In our community. Very peaceful - registered with city hall, police provided traffic services. The only people I saw who were NOT wearing masks were the police officers. Fortunately since the protesters were all masked, they were protected. Not gonna debate whether protesting deadly policing is on the same tantrum-level as being ticked 'cuz you can't go to a bar or eat a Smithfield ham. I think not, you think so we just disagree, irreconcilable differences. Here's the thing: as covid-19 started surging, the earliest surges in mid-June were NOT in locations that had significant BLM protests (or that had significant Anti-Shutdown protests, ). In MO, the surge started in SW MO, a very conservative, Republican area of the state, predominantly rural, initially around a chicken-packing plant. In WA, it's the SE edge of the state (again, conservative rural area). I'm mentioning "conservative" not to pick on politics, but to point out these are not areas that were boiling over with BLM protests. There are a few cities which had substantial protests where cases surged - I believe Houston may be one. Research being done is not finding a link: https://www.nber.org/papers/w27408.pdfhttps://nypost.com/2020/06/24/blm-protests-have-not-led-to-a-spike-in-coronavirus-cases-study/https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/06/24/883017035/what-contact-tracing-may-tell-about-cluster-spread-of-the-coronavirus Why does this make sense? What we're learning is that this virus likes to spread indoors, in an enclosed space, with people in close proximity for several hours and unmasked. Outdoors, even in close proximity, seems to hold far lower risk - especially if masked. I spent about an hour this am talking down a rather agitated friend who has had 103 fever and body aches for 24 hrs. Her 20 yr old daughter had a sore throat the previous week which (without testing) the doc thought was probably tonsilitis. Imma guess "nope, covid" and probably represents a cluster in her (relatively limited) contacts. Friend is older (almost 60) and has health conditions. I found two test sites for them and she's scheduled for Mon am, no sooner available. She was told "expect results in 7 days". Yep, here in MO near St Louis, she can't schedule a test for 4 days or get results for another 7. I hope to hell she doesn't get seriously ill with a treatment that could help her if given sooner. Meanwhile DHSS (our DOH) is 7,000+ tests in arrears for data entry. Contact tracing has completely broken down - just can't do it in these circumstances. Many symptomatic people like my friend who are ill are not getting tested. Meanwhile people who want to get a test "just to be sure" are getting tested because we lack a unified state response. So are patients who need surgery or medical procedures. That holds down the true % positive rate. Then I have neighbors posting on Facebook about "well I heard they aren't counting all the negative tests because my girlfriend's kittens Parrot Walker told me so" While contact tracing was going on? They were finding clusters of cases associated with church revivals in NE MO, church services that were not distancing in SW MO, parties, and groups visiting bars in St Louis and St Charles. They did not find any clusters attached to protests here, except in the jails. Hospital capacity across the S of the state is minimalist at the best of times. The data to show our leaders the actual situation are lagging by about 2.5 weeks. My bias. Yeah, cry me a river if a bar can't open or someone has to go without their chicken sammich because the Tyson Plant closed for decontamination after 369 positive cases in the small town where its located, I'm biased. 3 3
shoshin Posted July 17, 2020 Posted July 17, 2020 https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/15/sunday-review/coronavirus-history-pandemics.html?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage This past March, before coronavirus cases began to mount, the annual death rate in New York City was about six per 1,000 New Yorkers. The virus’s first wave added about 2.5 more deaths per 1,000 to that baseline. By contrast, from 1800 into the 1850s, deaths in the city rose in a relentless series of epidemic spikes, year after year, with only brief respites in between.
BillsFan4 Posted July 17, 2020 Posted July 17, 2020 (edited) 15 hours ago, LB3 said: Link them. found with a 3 second google search: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-usa-casualties/pandemic-hit-arizona-texas-counties-order-coolers-refrigerated-trucks-for-bodies-idUSKCN24H3HK https://www.cbsnews.com/news/texas-arizona-coronavirus-deaths-refrigerated-trucks-morgues/ https://abc13.com/coronavirus-texas-refrigerator-trucks-on-the-way-to-counties-news-cases/6316452/ https://www.click2houston.com/news/local/2020/07/14/texas-is-among-several-us-states-requesting-refrigerated-trucks-as-morgues-reach-capacity/ Edited July 17, 2020 by BillsFan4
plenzmd1 Posted July 17, 2020 Posted July 17, 2020 50 minutes ago, BillsFan4 said: found with a 3 second google search: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-usa-casualties/pandemic-hit-arizona-texas-counties-order-coolers-refrigerated-trucks-for-bodies-idUSKCN24H3HK https://www.cbsnews.com/news/texas-arizona-coronavirus-deaths-refrigerated-trucks-morgues/ https://abc13.com/coronavirus-texas-refrigerator-trucks-on-the-way-to-counties-news-cases/6316452/ https://www.click2houston.com/news/local/2020/07/14/texas-is-among-several-us-states-requesting-refrigerated-trucks-as-morgues-reach-capacity/ wonder why they did not need trucks during this flu season..where 11,000 people died in Texas vs the 3770 who have died from Covid. Maybe cause funerals are being delayed https://www.texmed.org/Template.aspx?id=48701 https://www.star-telegram.com/news/coronavirus/article244267152.html Quote Mario Martinez, assistant director of the local health department, said the trucks are necessary due to a surge in deaths and funerals being postponed in accordance with social distancing guidelines, according to the outlet. https://www.texmed.org/Template.aspx?id=48701 ..and lord knows how schools were able to stay open when 180 children died , and we are at less than 20 now per the CDC.
K-9 Posted July 17, 2020 Posted July 17, 2020 9 minutes ago, plenzmd1 said: wonder why they did not need trucks during this flu season..where 11,000 people died in Texas vs the 3770 who have died from Covid. Maybe cause funerals are being delayed https://www.texmed.org/Template.aspx?id=48701 https://www.star-telegram.com/news/coronavirus/article244267152.html https://www.texmed.org/Template.aspx?id=48701 ..and lord knows how schools were able to stay open when 180 children died , and we are at less than 20 now per the CDC. That’s an interesting stat about Texas. According to the CDC, the 2019/2020 flu season saw 24,000 deaths in the US. It’s amazing that Texas alone accounted for 46% of those. I also find it interesting that nobody seems seems to have an urgent need to quantify co-morbidities in flu deaths like they do for COVID-19. 3
BillsFan4 Posted July 17, 2020 Posted July 17, 2020 2 minutes ago, plenzmd1 said: wonder why they did not need trucks during this flu season..where 11,000 people died in Texas vs the 3770 who have died from Covid. Maybe cause funerals are being delayed https://www.texmed.org/Template.aspx?id=48701 https://www.star-telegram.com/news/coronavirus/article244267152.html https://www.texmed.org/Template.aspx?id=48701 ..and lord knows how schools were able to stay open when 180 children died , and we are at less than 20 now per the CDC. Yeah I would think delayed funerals could be part of it. Also, Flu season deaths are measured over a 9(ish) month period iirc. (Sept. or October to April or May). So I’m guessing that these covid deaths are happening much more rapidly over a shorter period of time compared to the average flu (that’s what happened in NY anyway). As far as schools closing, this virus isn’t just an average flu or flu season (that hasn’t even started yet!) but I think this topic has already been covered to death between this thread and the facts thread. If you still think this pandemic should be handled like it is just an average flu after everything we’ve witnessed, I’m certainly not going to change your mind by typing a few sentences or providing a few links.
plenzmd1 Posted July 17, 2020 Posted July 17, 2020 40 minutes ago, K-9 said: That’s an interesting stat about Texas. According to the CDC, the 2019/2020 flu season saw 24,000 deaths in the US. It’s amazing that Texas alone accounted for 46% of those. I also find it interesting that nobody seems seems to have an urgent need to quantify co-morbidities in flu deaths like they do for COVID-19. it covered 2017-2018. 39 minutes ago, BillsFan4 said: Yeah I would think delayed funerals could be part of it. Also, Flu season deaths are measured over a 9(ish) month period iirc. (Sept. or October to April or May). So I’m guessing that these covid deaths are happening much more rapidly over a shorter period of time compared to the average flu (that’s what happened in NY anyway). As far as schools closing, this virus isn’t just an average flu or flu season (that hasn’t even started yet!) but I think this topic has already been covered to death between this thread and the facts thread. If you still think this pandemic should be handled like it is just an average flu after everything we’ve witnessed, I’m certainly not going to change your mind by typing a few sentences or providing a few links. I am not advocating that Covid is the average flu, it is not. So much so, that it affects children much less severally than the normal "influenza" season. And yet we want to treat it like it acts like other influenza, and that just does not seem to make sense to me is all. The pictures of the trucks is very similar to the pictures of Hart Island in New York in April. The implication was so many people were dying, bodies had to be dumped in mass graves. No mention of context, no mention that it is the NYC potters field, no mention these were bodies that no one was claiming. Yes, the trucks have been ordered, but context and not headlines are important. There is no denying what is happening in FL and TX right now. But reporting without context makes it difficult for people to believe anything anything, even those things that are obvious 1
WEATHER DOT COM Posted July 17, 2020 Posted July 17, 2020 15 minutes ago, plenzmd1 said: no mention these were bodies that no one was claiming. Probably the saddest thing I read about the impacts of this virus is some bodies were not claimed was because the only living relative of that "body" was on a ventilator.
K-9 Posted July 17, 2020 Posted July 17, 2020 38 minutes ago, plenzmd1 said: it covered 2017-2018. I am not advocating that Covid is the average flu, it is not. So much so, that it affects children much less severally than the normal "influenza" season. And yet we want to treat it like it acts like other influenza, and that just does not seem to make sense to me is all. The pictures of the trucks is very similar to the pictures of Hart Island in New York in April. The implication was so many people were dying, bodies had to be dumped in mass graves. No mention of context, no mention that it is the NYC potters field, no mention these were bodies that no one was claiming. Yes, the trucks have been ordered, but context and not headlines are important. There is no denying what is happening in FL and TX right now. But reporting without context makes it difficult for people to believe anything anything, even those things that are obvious What context do you find missing?
Figster Posted July 17, 2020 Posted July 17, 2020 (edited) Contact tracing is a flawed method in the fight against Covid 19 in my humble opinion. For the simple fact that you have to many people reluctant to share their activities for various reason. Will a married man give out the name/s of his mistress/s? Same goes for the mistress. Will a drug dealer give out the names of his customers? Will a working man divulge in his whereabouts while he's spending time at the lake with his buddies fishing when he's supposed to be at work? Probably not.( just a few examples) Regardless of how much coaxing a contact tracer uses to many gaps will occur to do a good job overall IMO. I realize it may create a security risk in some instances. In my opinion the names and addresses of people infected should be readily available to the public so everyone who may have come into contact with Covid 19 can find out for themselves. If my neighbor has Covid 19 it would be good to know so I can take extra precautionary measures. The same goes in apartments whrere shared stairways or elevators might be used. Thoughts anyone? Edited July 17, 2020 by Figster
plenzmd1 Posted July 17, 2020 Posted July 17, 2020 1 minute ago, K-9 said: What context do you find missing? the context that funeral homes and morques were backing up as people wanted to have "normal" funerals but social distancing and restrictions of # of people at a gathering were delaying several funerals. It was not pure volume of the number of people passing. Either way it is awful, but the impression the articles, particularly the pictures and headlines want people to believe is folks are dying so fast in Texas refrigerated trucks are needed to store the people dying from Covid bodies, and that is just taken out of context
K-9 Posted July 17, 2020 Posted July 17, 2020 1 minute ago, plenzmd1 said: the context that funeral homes and morques were backing up as people wanted to have "normal" funerals but social distancing and restrictions of # of people at a gathering were delaying several funerals. It was not pure volume of the number of people passing. Either way it is awful, but the impression the articles, particularly the pictures and headlines want people to believe is folks are dying so fast in Texas refrigerated trucks are needed to store the people dying from Covid bodies, and that is just taken out of context The articles I’ve read mentioned the delay in funerals as a contributing factor, but officials are pretty adamant that the spike in Covid-19 deaths is the primary driver of the need for the refrigerator trucks, which isn’t surprising given the corresponding increases in hospitalizations and ICU care, which delayed funerals have nothing to do with. 1
plenzmd1 Posted July 17, 2020 Posted July 17, 2020 8 minutes ago, Figster said: Contact tracing is a flawed method in the fight against Covid 19 in my humble opinion. For the simple fact that you have to many people reluctant to share their activities for various reason. Will a married man give out the name/s of his mistress/s? Will a drug dealer give out the names of his customers? Will a working man divulge in his whereabouts while he's spending time at the lake with his buddies fishing when he's supposed to be at work? Probably not. Regardless of how much coaxing a contact tracer uses to many gaps will occur to do a good job overall IMO. I realize it may create a security risk in some instances. In my opinion the names and addresses of people infected should be readily available to the public so everyone who may have come into contact with Covid 19 can find out for themselves. If my neighbor has Covid 19 it would be good to know so I can take extra precautionary measures. The same goes in apartments whrere shared stairways or elevators might be used. Thoughts anyone? To play devils advocate..should people with STI's be readily available for the public to see? The flu? Should people who have been on the list but are now negative and have antibodies get preferential treatment when applying for a job, for a promotion? get to move about freely and not be governed by the other rules such as masks and not being able to go to a bar? 1
Figster Posted July 17, 2020 Posted July 17, 2020 (edited) 4 minutes ago, plenzmd1 said: To play devils advocate..should people with STI's be readily available for the public to see? The flu? Should people who have been on the list but are now negative and have antibodies get preferential treatment when applying for a job, for a promotion? get to move about freely and not be governed by the other rules such as masks and not being able to go to a bar? No, no, possibly depending on the circumstances, and no. ( IMO ) Good questions, thanks Edited July 17, 2020 by Figster
BillsFan4 Posted July 17, 2020 Posted July 17, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, plenzmd1 said: it covered 2017-2018. I am not advocating that Covid is the average flu, it is not. So much so, that it affects children much less severally than the normal "influenza" season. And yet we want to treat it like it acts like other influenza, and that just does not seem to make sense to me is all. The pictures of the trucks is very similar to the pictures of Hart Island in New York in April. The implication was so many people were dying, bodies had to be dumped in mass graves. No mention of context, no mention that it is the NYC potters field, no mention these were bodies that no one was claiming. Yes, the trucks have been ordered, but context and not headlines are important. There is no denying what is happening in FL and TX right now. But reporting without context makes it difficult for people to believe anything anything, even those things that are obvious You are correct about Hart island in NYC and the bodies being unclaimed. But there were still many more than usual. There were also refrigerated trucks parked in places like Brooklyn and Queens. My ex GF had numerous trucks parked near the hospital she works at at one point. Their local morgues were full and they couldn’t process the bodies fats enough because of the sheer amount of deaths that were happening at the time. Her hospital (a large NYC hospital) also wasn’t equipped to deal with the amount of deaths they were seeing in a given day/week. They didn’t have the space for the bodies either. Can you show me any examples of hospitals needing refrigerated trucks during flu seasons? I am unaware of this being required during flu seasons (especially at many different hospitals in numerous different states). I couldn’t find anything with a google search where hospitals needed refrigerated trucks to store bodies (outside of for covid). But maybe I missed it. The only thing I saw was an article from 2009 that mentioned it was brought up as a possibility if swine flu deaths spiked. Edited July 17, 2020 by BillsFan4 1
BillsFan4 Posted July 17, 2020 Posted July 17, 2020 (edited) 20 minutes ago, K-9 said: The articles I’ve read mentioned the delay in funerals as a contributing factor, but officials are pretty adamant that the spike in Covid-19 deaths is the primary driver of the need for the refrigerator trucks, which isn’t surprising given the corresponding increases in hospitalizations and ICU care, which delayed funerals have nothing to do with. Yes, I think many of the hospitals in hard hit areas just aren’t equipped to deal with the number of deaths that these large covid outbreaks can cause in a short amount of time. Like this hospital in Texas: https://www.mysanantonio.com/coronavirus/article/Nowhere-to-put-them-Refrigerated-trucks-on-15406865.php Quote Ken Davis, chief medical officer for Christus Health South Texas, said hospitals and funeral homes were "out of space" for the deceased. “It's a hard thing to talk about — people's loved ones are dying — but in the hospital, there are only so many places to put bodies of the loved ones in," Davis said. "We're out of space, our funeral homes are out of space, and we need those beds. So when someone dies we need to quickly turn that bed over." Quote He noted that one of the city's larger hospitals had two slots for people who have died. "We need more than two," Davis said. "We had 14 die in the hospitals this weekend, plus other non-COVID patients of course are dying, so there’s nowhere to put them. "We're looking ourselves for refrigerated trucks to put bodies, to hold them, until the morgue or the funeral home can come pick them up. Which sounds terrible, but it’s true." In Nueces County, officials requested a FEMA mobile morgue unit (a refrigerated trailer) and body bags from the state. County Judge Barbara Canales told residents Thursday that "the sudden spike in deaths has created this need." I don’t think many of these funeral homes are equipped to deal with the rapid number of deaths happening either. It’s not really something that happens very often. Edited July 17, 2020 by BillsFan4
plenzmd1 Posted July 17, 2020 Posted July 17, 2020 9 minutes ago, BillsFan4 said: You are correct about Hart island in NYC and the bodies being unclaimed. But there were still many more than usual. There were also refrigerated trucks parked in places like Brooklyn and Queens. My ex GF had numerous trucks parked near the hospital she works at at one point. Their local morgues were full and they couldn’t process the bodies fats enough because of the sheer amount of deaths that were happening at the time. Her hospital (a large NYC hospital) also wasn’t equipped to deal with the amount of deaths they were seeing in a given day/week. They didn’t have the space for the bodies either. Can you show me any examples of hospitals needing refrigerated trucks during flu seasons? I am unaware of this being required during flu seasons (especially at many different hospitals in numerous different states). I couldn’t find anything with a google search where hospitals needed refrigerated trucks to store bodies (outside of for covid). But maybe I missed it. The only thing I saw was an article from 2009 that mentioned it was brought up as a possibility if swine flu deaths spiked. Just heading to the course , so short. But NYC absolutely needed them by all accounts. Texas is not NYC My implication was only that the delay of funerals is a contributing factor for the need in Texas good discussion, we need of them! 1
GoBills808 Posted July 17, 2020 Posted July 17, 2020 41 minutes ago, Figster said: Contact tracing is a flawed method in the fight against Covid 19 in my humble opinion. For the simple fact that you have to many people reluctant to share their activities for various reason. Will a married man give out the name/s of his mistress/s? Same goes for the mistress. Will a drug dealer give out the names of his customers? Will a working man divulge in his whereabouts while he's spending time at the lake with his buddies fishing when he's supposed to be at work? Probably not.( just a few examples) Regardless of how much coaxing a contact tracer uses to many gaps will occur to do a good job overall IMO. I realize it may create a security risk in some instances. In my opinion the names and addresses of people infected should be readily available to the public so everyone who may have come into contact with Covid 19 can find out for themselves. If my neighbor has Covid 19 it would be good to know so I can take extra precautionary measures. The same goes in apartments whrere shared stairways or elevators might be used. Thoughts anyone? Here's a primer on contact tracing (you'll note there is a confidentiality aspect- no names are included as part of the traceback): https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/daily-life-coping/contact-tracing.html Also estimated only 40% of symptomatic COVID-19 case contacts need to be identified and quarantined to manage spread, your examples are unlikely to constitute >60% of a symptomatic person's contacts: https://www.statnews.com/2020/05/29/contact-tracing-can-it-help-avoid-more-lockdowns/ 1
Saxum Posted July 17, 2020 Posted July 17, 2020 Former game show host deactivates Twitter account after his son contracts Covid-1 https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/16/us/chuck-woolery-son-covid-19/index.html Quote Woolery made news late Sunday when President Donald Trump retweeted Woolery saying everyone is lying about Covid-19. "The most outrageous lies are the ones about Covid 19. Everyone is lying," Woolery said in that tweet. "The CDC, Media, Democrats, our Doctors, not all but most, that we are told to trust. I think it's all about the election and keeping the economy from coming back, which is about the election. I'm sick of it," his tweet said. Woolery deactivated his Twitter account Wednesday, Young said. In his last posted tweet, Woolery said, "Covid-19 is real and it is here." "My son tested positive for the virus, and I feel for those suffering and especially for those who have lost loved ones," Woolery said in a tweet on Monday morning, which still lives in the cache of digital archive sites. Speaking on "Blunt Force Truth," the right-wing political podcast he cohosts, Woolery said he "never said Covid was a hoax, but it was the only way" his critics "could really twist and use it against me." I will not say he deserved it but I will say roasted on his own petard.
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