BillsFan4 Posted May 8, 2020 Posted May 8, 2020 Follow up on the AP story from the previous page of this thread: https://apnews.com/9c4d5284ba4769d3b98aa05232201f88 ? [Edit: Hapless sez, bear in mind that per AP writer and long-time board member @john wawrow, AP publication requires two sources that have to have personal knowledge ie it can't be "heard it from someone who heard it...."] 1
Hapless Bills Fan Posted May 8, 2020 Author Posted May 8, 2020 1 hour ago, Nervous Guy said: How do you go about sorting out the good science from the junk and draw any dependable recommendations or conclusions? Oh, OK. Pretty much same way scientists always have. You know what a good protocol is. Many of us have reviewed scientific manuscripts in our time. You learn where to look for the palmed card, the places where the data don't support the conclusion. You read a paper and look at what the protocol is, what the endpoints are, what the numbers are. It's not proof against deliberate deceit - the kind of thing Raoult was found to do photoshopping blots - but when you have one group saying "100% cure! Oh, we didn't count the patient who died, and the 3 who went to the ICU, and we had no control group, but other than that, 100% cure!" and another group saying "we did a randomized double-blinded study and no statistically significant effect was seen", Welp then. And you need to accept that early conclusions arise from early data, and get revised when additional better data appears. Science in real time on the hoof is an intrinsically messy business and sorting through contradictory data is part of the game. There were like 45,000 patients of data behind the WHO-China joint study that said low numbers of asymptomatic patients. That now looks like an artifact of inadequate testing. There were some initial contact-tracking studies in the US that reached conclusions on transmission dynamics and community attack rate based on testing only symptomatic patients. Same. There's now an overwhelming amount of data from multiple countries and sources that there are a LOT of asymptomatic patients and that they factor into transmission dynamics, and any successful public health strategy to keep this thing shut down needs to address that. Short of a 98% accurate testing system about as fast as a fingerprint reader, masks about all we got. 1 1
Hapless Bills Fan Posted May 9, 2020 Author Posted May 9, 2020 1 hour ago, Limeaid said: This is way this country has been since Vietnam war. No, Limeaid, all respect and not wanting to derail this but it's not. It's really not. I was born the same year the Bills were. I grew up wearing a POW/MIA bracelet AND singing "Four dead in O-hi-o". I've seen and heard conflict, people of different viewpoints who are entrenched in those viewpoints. But as has been said, we could usually agree what the facts were - we would disagree about what the facts MEANT and what ACTIONS to take, but not about the facts. I've never seen anything like this before - where the Government, the White House, publishes guidelines and then the CIC turns around and tweets out stuff encouraging people to protest against closures aligned with the White House's own guidelines. Where the input of people in a government agency who have the most relevant expertise about how to handle a situation is suppressed. Where procurement and logistics that in past our Defense Logistics Agency (another agency where other countries send people to learn from us) has delivered on successfully, is left to inexperienced people. Where states are forced to bid against each other AND the federal government to obtain needed supplies. Where a lot of people in this country are loudly expressing the view that a worldwide pandemic that's killed at least 274,000 people is a hoax and dismissing the first-hand testimony of nurses and doctors. No, there has never been anything like this before that I can remember. 2 2 1
Bad Things Posted May 9, 2020 Posted May 9, 2020 1 hour ago, Limeaid said: This is way this country has been since Vietnam war. No it's not. I've only been away for 15 years, and know what it used to be like. And I'm not saying that it was always 'holding hands and kumbaya".
BillsFan4 Posted May 9, 2020 Posted May 9, 2020 48 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: No, Limeaid, all respect and not wanting to derail this but it's not. It's really not. I was born the same year the Bills were. I grew up wearing a POW/MIA bracelet AND singing "Four dead in O-hi-o". I've seen and heard conflict, people of different viewpoints who are entrenched in those viewpoints. But as has been said, we could usually agree what the facts were - we would disagree about what the facts MEANT and what ACTIONS to take, but not about the facts. I've never seen anything like this before - where the Government, the White House, publishes guidelines and then the CIC turns around and tweets out stuff encouraging people to protest against closures aligned with the White House's own guidelines. Where the input of people in a government agency who have the most relevant expertise about how to handle a situation is suppressed. Where procurement and logistics that in past our Defense Logistics Agency (another agency where other countries send people to learn from us) has delivered on successfully, is left to inexperienced people. Where states are forced to bid against each other AND the federal government to obtain needed supplies. Where a lot of people in this country are loudly expressing the view that a worldwide pandemic that's killed at least 274,000 people is a hoax and dismissing the first-hand testimony of nurses and doctors. No, there has never been anything like this before that I can remember. Same. I’ve never seen anything like this before in my lifetime. My 87yr old aunt says the same thing.
Bad Things Posted May 9, 2020 Posted May 9, 2020 Speaking of just how strange things are... https://www.businessinsider.com.au/trump-tours-coronavirus-mask-factory-live-and-let-die-soundtrack-2020-5?r=US&IR=T I thought it was a weird joke, until I found out it was true. There is no way this would have happened in other times.
Warcodered Posted May 9, 2020 Posted May 9, 2020 15 minutes ago, Bad Things said: Speaking of just how strange things are... https://www.businessinsider.com.au/trump-tours-coronavirus-mask-factory-live-and-let-die-soundtrack-2020-5?r=US&IR=T I thought it was a weird joke, until I found out it was true. There is no way this would have happened in other times. It'd be funny if it wasn't so sad. 1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: No, Limeaid, all respect and not wanting to derail this but it's not. It's really not. I was born the same year the Bills were. I grew up wearing a POW/MIA bracelet AND singing "Four dead in O-hi-o". I've seen and heard conflict, people of different viewpoints who are entrenched in those viewpoints. But as has been said, we could usually agree what the facts were - we would disagree about what the facts MEANT and what ACTIONS to take, but not about the facts. I've never seen anything like this before - where the Government, the White House, publishes guidelines and then the CIC turns around and tweets out stuff encouraging people to protest against closures aligned with the White House's own guidelines. Where the input of people in a government agency who have the most relevant expertise about how to handle a situation is suppressed. Where procurement and logistics that in past our Defense Logistics Agency (another agency where other countries send people to learn from us) has delivered on successfully, is left to inexperienced people. Where states are forced to bid against each other AND the federal government to obtain needed supplies. Where a lot of people in this country are loudly expressing the view that a worldwide pandemic that's killed at least 274,000 people is a hoax and dismissing the first-hand testimony of nurses and doctors. No, there has never been anything like this before that I can remember. Definitely hasn't been I don't know if it's the 24 hours news networks or the internet but things have gotten awful for people staying informed.
Saxum Posted May 9, 2020 Posted May 9, 2020 U.S. Coast Guard braces for post-pandemic wave of migrants https://www.yahoo.com/news/us-coast-guard-braces-for-postpandemic-wave-of-migrants-141929560.html Quote Any time there’s a crisis in the southeast U.S. … there’s always the risk of increased migration,” said Rear Adm. Eric Jones, commander of the Coast Guard’s 7th District, which is headquartered in Miami. “Smugglers will look for an opportunity, whether it’s post-hurricane, post-earthquake or amidst political turmoil, to try and smuggle folks out of Haiti, out of the Dominican Republic, from the Bahamas or out of Cuba.” Jones’s 3,600 active-duty Coast Guardsmen have been on the frontlines of the COVID-19 fight since mid-March, when the pandemic forced the cruise ship industry to grind to a halt. Because so much of that industry is based in Miami, many cruise lines chose to send their ships to Florida, where 7th District personnel worked around the clock to facilitate the offloading of passengers and to arrange medical support and resupply for the crews that remained aboard. As of April 4, the Coast Guard had disembarked more than a quarter of a million cruise ship passengers, a spokesperson for the service told Yahoo News in a statement. Rush before $2,000/month is authorized? https://news.yahoo.com/coronavirus-stimulus-checks-irs-090000037.html Quote A new bill seeks to dramatically increase financial relief for struggling American families amid the ongoing coronavirus pandemic by extending the government’s stimulus checks months after the crisis is over. The Monthly Economic Crisis Support Act, introduced Friday by Sens. Kamala Harris (D-Calif.), Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) and Ed Markey (D-Mass.), would provide a monthly $2,000 check to every person with an income below $120,000 throughout the public health crisis and for three months after it officially ends. In late March, the Senate passed a $2 trillion package called the Coronavirus Aid, Relief, and Economic Security Act, but the trio of progressive senators believes it’s insufficient. Quote The CARES Act provided Americans making up to $99,000 with a maximum of $1,200, with families eligible to receive an additional $500 per child. The checks were limited to Americans with a Social Security number. The new bill offered by Senate Democrats would not impose such a limitation.
Saxum Posted May 9, 2020 Posted May 9, 2020 AP Exclusive: Docs show top WH officials buried CDC report https://apnews.com/9c4d5284ba4769d3b98aa05232201f88 Quote Three days later, CDC’s upper management sent the more than 60-page report with attached flow charts to the White House Office of Management and Budget, a step usually taken only when agencies are seeking final White House approval for documents they have already cleared. The 17-page version later released by The AP and other news outlets was only part of the actual document submitted by the CDC, and targeted specific facilities like bars and restaurants. The AP obtained a copy Friday of the full document. That version is a more universal series of phased guidelines, “Steps for All Americans in Every Community,” geared to advise communities as a whole on testing, contact tracing and other fundamental infection control measures. You want some bury? There will be a lot of burying due to that in plots. Invest in burial plots, it will be a bull market.
BillsFan4 Posted May 9, 2020 Posted May 9, 2020 https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/93597a/plandemic-viral-nonsense-judi-mikovits-plague-of-corruption 'Plandemic' Is Dangerous, Viral Nonsense ‘A pseudo-documentary full of outrageous, verifiably false claims is still going viral, despite being repeatedly removed from YouTube and Facebook.’ Edit: more stuff from the "facts only" thread:
K-9 Posted May 9, 2020 Posted May 9, 2020 15 minutes ago, BillsFan4 said: https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/93597a/plandemic-viral-nonsense-judi-mikovits-plague-of-corruption 'Plandemic' Is Dangerous, Viral Nonsense ‘A pseudo-documentary full of outrageous, verifiably false claims is still going viral, despite being repeatedly removed from YouTube and Facebook.’ Crazy people with mass media platforms for other crazy people to indulge their NEED to believe what they believe. The times we live in.
BillsFan4 Posted May 9, 2020 Posted May 9, 2020 https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2012410 New England journal of medicine Observational Study of Hydroxychloroquine in Hospitalized Patients with Covid-19.
BillsFan4 Posted May 9, 2020 Posted May 9, 2020 Edit: The second is another retrospective study, this time from Italy of using an immune modulator, anakinra, which blocks IL-1, to treat covid-19 patients receiving non-invaisive ventilation outside the ICU. These were very sick patients who shoulda been in the ICU except, No Room link to article: https://www.thelancet.com/action/showPdf?pii=S2665-9913(20)30127-2 72% of the patients improved, which is actually pretty big. Hopefully this is being assessed in a controlled study somewhere. The first is a controlled (but open label) study of not critically ill covid-19 patients from Hong Kong of a combination of 3 drugs: interferon B-1b, kaletra (lopinavir/ritonavir - which is an HIV protease inhibitor) and ribavirin (which is an antiviral used to treat RSV, Hep C, and some hemorrhagic fever viruses). The control group got lopinavir/ritonavir because it had become the standard of care. There is a small controlled study saying it is not effective). https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)31042-4/fulltext The primary endpoint was negative viral swab, but they also looked at SOFA score (sequential organ failure assessment) and time to symptom mitigation, and saw a difference. The authors diplomatically note that lopinavir/ritonavir has been shown to be "modestly active" and suggest a controlled study of interferon B-1b. The thing that struck me was that the 144 patients screened were 80% of the Hong Kong covid-19 patients during this time period Feb 10 to Mar 20! For being on China's doorstep, Hong Kong really "Kicked Butt and Took Names" when it came to managing covid-19.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted May 9, 2020 Author Posted May 9, 2020 1 hour ago, BillsFan4 said: https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2012410 New England journal of medicine Observational Study of Hydroxychloroquine in Hospitalized Patients with Covid-19. So this is an observational study, not in the sense that they just observed the patients, but because it was conducted by reviewing and analyzing data from charts. In that sense, it is similar to the large VA datamining study that came out a bit ago. The clinical endpoints make sense - intubation (patient got worse and needed to go on a ventilator) or death. They're not just saying "did we clear viral titer?" they're asking "did this help people recover in a measurable way?" They tried to exclude patients who were perhaps already too sick for hydroxyquinone to help by setting a baseline of at least 24 hrs between arrival in hospital and being placed on a ventilator (intubated) or death. The first thing that struck me was that 4% of the patients in the study died or were intubated before they'd been in hospital 24 hrs. That's. Outrageous. High. These are very sick people showing up in hospital. 1
ALF Posted May 10, 2020 Posted May 10, 2020 Roaming 'robodog' politely tells Singapore park goers to keep apart SINGAPORE (Reuters) - Far from barking its orders, a robot dog enlisted by Singapore authorities to help curb coronavirus infections in the city-state politely asks joggers and cyclists to stay apart. The remote-controlled, four-legged machine built by Boston Dynamics was first deployed in a central park on Friday as part of a two-week trial that could see it join other robots policing Singapore's green spaces during a nationwide lockdown. "Let's keep Singapore healthy," the yellow and black robodog named SPOT said in English as it roamed around. "For your own safety and for those around you, please stand at least one metre apart. Thank you," it added, in a softly-spoken female voice. Despite the niceties, breaches of Singapore's strict lockdown rules can result in hefty fines and even jail. https://news.yahoo.com/roaming-robodog-politely-tells-singapore-131503946.html
Saxum Posted May 10, 2020 Posted May 10, 2020 (edited) Tesla Files Lawsuit in Bid to Reopen Fremont Factory https://www.wsj.com/articles/elon-musk-threatens-authorities-over-mandated-tesla-factory-shutdown-11589046681?mod=business_lead_pos2 Quote Tesla Inc. has asked a federal judge to allow the electric-car maker to reopen its lone U.S. assembly factory, calling a local government’s insistence that it remain closed to fight the spread of Covid-19 a power grab that defies the U.S. Constitution. https://www.axios.com/elon-musk-tesla-hq-move-california-lawsuit-factory-coronavirus-9a852419-d6ea-41ca-affd-c96dc15c6ef3.html Quote Where it stands: It followed tweets from Musk earlier in the day announcing the case and stating that Tesla will "now move its HQ and future programs to Texas/Nevada immediately." "If we even retain Fremont manufacturing activity at all, it will be dependent on how Tesla is treated in the future," he wrote. Give me liberty (to make cars) or give me death (to California jobs). Edited May 10, 2020 by Limeaid
K-9 Posted May 10, 2020 Posted May 10, 2020 3 hours ago, BillsFan4 said: Allow me to channel my inner Bill O’Reilly: The virus only hurts old people who were gonna die anyway and young kids who aren’t productive members of society, so, no biggie. Seriously though, SARS-CoV-2 is the most insidious germ I can recall. 1
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