Figster Posted April 23, 2020 Posted April 23, 2020 8 hours ago, Limeaid said: That is assuming they wore them properly and did not touch something and get it another way. Back in January I scoured stores looking for n95 for my brother-in-law who works in a hospital. Took me over a week but I got a box and mailed them to him. Took a month to clear customs to him. I was convinced someone in customs took them. Mistakes happen, absolutely. Having worked in a training center for Bartlett Nuclear teaching men and women how to suit up and protect themselves in often times a very dangerous environment. I've witnessed 1st hand the kind of mistakes that can happen. You know what though? They learned, and after awhile it became 2nd nature. Our country needs to prepare itself for the future. Nobody wants a future wearing masks. On the other hand everyone wants a future including the elderly and most vulnerable. Myself personally, If I'm president I'm mass producing the N95 mask and the reopening of the country in phases corresponds with the amount of N95 masks I can supply to the general public. Opening restraunts? Are you kidding me...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted April 23, 2020 Author Posted April 23, 2020 6 hours ago, ExiledInIllinois said: Sewage monitoring can detect outbreaks: https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/04/coronavirus-found-paris-sewage-points-early-warning-system Similar publication, broke it down here. I personally think this would be very useful public health survey for many areas with limited health resources but municiple waste water treatment as they open back up: monitor the waste water, if you see a surge in covid-19 RNA, you KNOW you have an outbreak and you need to find it/contain it or lock back down. 1
Hapless Bills Fan Posted April 23, 2020 Author Posted April 23, 2020 3 hours ago, Back2Buff said: It's going to continue to get earlier and earlier. It's just illogical to think that if it was in China in November that it stayed there. The world is all connected. Yes, you are right that it's illogical to think if a disease is in one country it will stay there (which makes the US inaction on steps to address through January quite puzzling) To date, I have seen no evidence that covid-19 disease was widespread in China in November or early December, so while certainly travel was occurring it becomes a game of probability, and the probability didn't surge until the case count did, in January. Hard evidence: there have been 3,226 complete viral genomes sequenced and added to a public database, and so far none of them extend prior to late December, including the recently uncovered cases. Have a look if you like, pretty fascinating stuff (to me anyway): https://nextstrain.org/ncov/global The bottom line is that our lack of testing in Feb (and limited testing in March, focused on foreign travel) totally blinded us to the community transmission that was ongoing. 1
Figster Posted April 23, 2020 Posted April 23, 2020 (edited) 26 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: Similar publication, broke it down here. I personally think this would be very useful public health survey for many areas with limited health resources but municiple waste water treatment as they open back up: monitor the waste water, if you see a surge in covid-19 RNA, you KNOW you have an outbreak and you need to find it/contain it or lock back down. Trash monitoring might also be something worth looking into in my opinion Hapless. Trash monitoring may help narrow down and posssibly even pin point a source that may not be showing visible symptoms of Covid 19. (Just a thought...) If it hasn't already been mentioned. Edited April 23, 2020 by Figster
Hapless Bills Fan Posted April 23, 2020 Author Posted April 23, 2020 46 minutes ago, Figster said: Mistakes happen, absolutely. Having worked in a training center for Bartlett Nuclear teaching men and women how to suit up and protect themselves in often times a very dangerous environment. I've witnessed 1st hand the kind of mistakes that can happen. You know what though? They learned, and after awhile it became 2nd nature. Our country needs to prepare itself for the future. Nobody wants a future wearing masks. On the other hand everyone wants a future including the elderly and most vulnerable. Myself personally, If I'm president I'm mass producing the N95 mask and the reopening of the country in phases corresponds with the amount of N95 masks I can supply to the general public. Opening restraunts? Are you kidding me... We agree with the "opening restaurants...are you kidding me?" there is no way to enjoy a socially distant restaurant experience. As for opening hair salons, tattoo parlors, and massage therapy...are they nuckin' futz?!!!? I personally think we're more likely to see compliance with wearing a surgical mask or homemade equivalent. A properly fitted N95 respirator kind of hurts a bit after it's worn for a while - the necessary side effect of something that seals against the face - most of our HCW who are wearing them 12 hrs/day 6 days a week have facial bruising. It's also hard to breathe through exertionally. I feel the top priority for N95 goes to HCW, first responders, those caring for the elderly, and then those in "essential" positions like the food chain (from ag. and meat processing on up) and I think that comes before handing out 329 N95 masks to the general public. In my opinion, asking these people to place themselves in harms' way without N95 respirator protection is immoral. Data shows that countries like Taiwan and S. Korea have seen good disease containment with public wearing of surgical masks and homemade masks that have some kind of filter added (can be as simple as a 5" x 8" shop towel, a pipe cleaner, a bandana, and two hair ties) and that everyone could be wearing this kind of mask TODAY. It's effective at preventing the mask wearer from exposing OTHERS, so if everyone wears them: herd effect. Don't let "great" be the enemy of "good" by making people feel (on no evidence) only the N95 respirator will work - it is needed to protect people who come into frequent contact with many people and with known infected people. We've had this discussion before though, and come down to "agree to disagree". 10 minutes ago, Figster said: Trash monitoring might also be something worth looking into in my opinion Hapless. If it hasn't already been mentioned. I don't see this, but would welcome details. The beauty of wastewater treatment is that people directly and regularly deposit high concentration virus-containing waste material into it. It's easy to collect a representative sample without undue personnel exposure, easy to inactivate virus in the sample before processing and testing it, and the technique has been used to monitor other diseases. Don't see any of that for trash. 1 1
Figster Posted April 23, 2020 Posted April 23, 2020 (edited) 19 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: We agree with the "opening restaurants...are you kidding me?" there is no way to enjoy a socially distant restaurant experience. As for opening hair salons, tattoo parlors, and massage therapy...are they nuckin' futz?!!!? I personally think we're more likely to see compliance with wearing a surgical mask or homemade equivalent. A properly fitted N95 respirator kind of hurts a bit after it's worn for a while - the necessary side effect of something that seals against the face - most of our HCW who are wearing them 12 hrs/day 6 days a week have facial bruising. I feel the top priority for N95 goes to HCW, first responders, and those caring for the elderly, and I think that comes before handing out 329 N95 masks. I feel that countries like Taiwan and S. Korea have seen good disease containment with surgical masks and homemade masks that have some kind of filter added (can be as simple as a 5" x 8" shop towel, a pipe cleaner, a bandana, and two hair ties) and that everyone could be wearing this kind of mask TODAY. It's effective at preventing the mask wearer from exposing OTHERS, so if everyone wears them: herd effect. Don't let "great" be the enemy of "good" by making people feel (on no evidence) only the N95 respirator will work. We've had this discussion before though, and come down to "agree to disagree". Right now, as we are discussing. The only real safe way we have of protecting ourselves in an enclosed area or indoor enviroment with other people is with an N95 mask. It doesn't have to be an either or when it comes to health care workers vs essential business workers or general public getting the N95 mask IMO. With all due and utmost respect. I don't mean to say a mask or scarf of any kind doesn't help because it does and its a good point. On the other hand an N95 mask makes you over 10 times safer If memory serves me corretly. My point all along is Covid 19 needs to be stopped at the source in my humble opinion. Edited April 23, 2020 by Figster
Hapless Bills Fan Posted April 23, 2020 Author Posted April 23, 2020 3 minutes ago, Figster said: Right now, as we are discussing. The only real safe way we have of protecting ourselves in an enclosed area or indoor enviroment with other people is with an N95 mask. It doesn't have to be an either or when it comes to health care workers vs essential business workers or general public getting the N95 mask IMO. With all due and utmost respect. I don't mean to say a mask or scarf of any kind doesn't help because it does and its a good point. On the other hand an N95 mask makes you over 10 times safer If memory serves me corredtly. My point all along is Covid 19 needs to be stopped at the source in my humble opinion. I don't think we have data on either point. If you do, and care to present it, I'll change my mind. I'm not big on scarves, myself. Most are loose woven and I don't feel they provide protection. As far as the "either or", what's the supply chain look like for those N95 masks? How many are available to purchase from outside the country? How many are available from internal manufacture? If it's not "either or", I'm for it. 1
Figster Posted April 23, 2020 Posted April 23, 2020 (edited) 39 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: I don't think we have data on either point. If you do, and care to present it, I'll change my mind. I'm not big on scarves, myself. Most are loose woven and I don't feel they provide protection. As far as the "either or", what's the supply chain look like for those N95 masks? I'll try to hunt down the article. I realize not having enough N95 masks to go around is the problem. To me though, this is a problem that should and could be fixed IMO. Mass production of the N95 mask prepares this country for the future IMO. At the very least we should give N95 access right now to all senior citizens and most vulnerable and any form of care giver that may come into contact with them IMO. The way I see it we the general public would be protecting in turn our fellow health care workers by wearing the N95 mask. (If we had access to them ) Edited April 23, 2020 by Figster
Figster Posted April 23, 2020 Posted April 23, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: We agree with the "opening restaurants...are you kidding me?" there is no way to enjoy a socially distant restaurant experience. As for opening hair salons, tattoo parlors, and massage therapy...are they nuckin' futz?!!!? I personally think we're more likely to see compliance with wearing a surgical mask or homemade equivalent. A properly fitted N95 respirator kind of hurts a bit after it's worn for a while - the necessary side effect of something that seals against the face - most of our HCW who are wearing them 12 hrs/day 6 days a week have facial bruising. It's also hard to breathe through exertionally. I feel the top priority for N95 goes to HCW, first responders, those caring for the elderly, and then those in "essential" positions like the food chain (from ag. and meat processing on up) and I think that comes before handing out 329 N95 masks to the general public. In my opinion, asking these people to place themselves in harms' way without N95 respirator protection is immoral. Data shows that countries like Taiwan and S. Korea have seen good disease containment with public wearing of surgical masks and homemade masks that have some kind of filter added (can be as simple as a 5" x 8" shop towel, a pipe cleaner, a bandana, and two hair ties) and that everyone could be wearing this kind of mask TODAY. It's effective at preventing the mask wearer from exposing OTHERS, so if everyone wears them: herd effect. Don't let "great" be the enemy of "good" by making people feel (on no evidence) only the N95 respirator will work - it is needed to protect people who come into frequent contact with many people and with known infected people. We've had this discussion before though, and come down to "agree to disagree". I don't see this, but would welcome details. The beauty of wastewater treatment is that people directly and regularly deposit high concentration virus-containing waste material into it. It's easy to collect a representative sample without undue personnel exposure, easy to inactivate virus in the sample before processing and testing it, and the technique has been used to monitor other diseases. Don't see any of that for trash. I think in almost any residency where an active case of Covid 19 is occurring samples from tissue paper from blowing ones nose for instance would give not only an indication, in many instances give you an exact address and location through mail correspondence IMO. Again, just a thought and you have become a very trusted and knowledgeable fellow patron for me to bounce ideas off of, for lack of a better way of putting it. Edited April 23, 2020 by Figster 1
Saxum Posted April 23, 2020 Posted April 23, 2020 1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: Data shows that countries like Taiwan and S. Korea have seen good disease containment with public wearing of surgical masks and homemade masks that have some kind of filter added (can be as simple as a 5" x 8" shop towel, a pipe cleaner, a bandana, and two hair ties) and that everyone could be wearing this kind of mask TODAY. It's effective at preventing the mask wearer from exposing OTHERS, so if everyone wears them: herd effect. Don't let "great" be the enemy of "good" by making people feel (on no evidence) only the N95 respirator will work - it is needed to protect people who come into frequent contact with many people and with known infected people. Wish I could test my wife's design - three layers of shop towels and cotton which fits well to face and is comfortable.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted April 23, 2020 Author Posted April 23, 2020 19 minutes ago, Limeaid said: Wish I could test my wife's design - three layers of shop towels and cotton which fits well to face and is comfortable. You could compare to the design of the Ninja Sewist Ladies who actually bought a particle counter and did tests:https://suayla.com/pages/suay-community-mask-coalition
Saxum Posted April 23, 2020 Posted April 23, 2020 1 hour ago, Figster said: I'll try to hunt down the article. I realize not having enough N95 masks to go around is the problem. To me though, this is a problem that should and could be fixed IMO. Mass production of the N95 mask prepares this country for the future IMO. At the very least we should give N95 access right now to all senior citizens and most vulnerable and any form of care giver that may come into contact with them IMO. The way I see it we the general public would be protecting in turn our fellow health care workers by wearing the N95 mask. (If we had access to them ) Senior citzens in general are not good candidates for n95 masks. They need to be work correctly and when you wear it correctly it lightly damages face which seniors have lower heal rates. Have it with workers taking care of them and they will be safe. 7 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: You could compare to the design of the Ninja Sewist Ladies who actually bought a particle counter and did tests:https://suayla.com/pages/suay-community-mask-coalition I was hoping I could mail one and be tested. 1
Figster Posted April 23, 2020 Posted April 23, 2020 (edited) 41 minutes ago, Limeaid said: Senior citzens in general are not good candidates for n95 masks. They need to be work correctly and when you wear it correctly it lightly damages face which seniors have lower heal rates. Have it with workers taking care of them and they will be safe. Good points Limeaid, Myself personally though, If I had to take a senior citizen to a doctors appointment for instance and by way of example I would prefer them wearing an N95 mask regardless. Car might break down on the way. Police might pull you over. The home or facility a senior citizen lives in requires routine maintenance. Heat and air, plumbing. Plumbers with bad teeth and farting butt cracks showing ( that one's for Gu) Cooking, cleaning. As your typical senior citizen I'm not sure it would be wise to rely on everyone else you may encounter for your own personal protection IMO. Edited April 23, 2020 by Figster
Augie Posted April 23, 2020 Posted April 23, 2020 2 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: We agree with the "opening restaurants...are you kidding me?" there is no way to enjoy a socially distant restaurant experience. As for opening hair salons, tattoo parlors, and massage therapy...are they nuckin' futz?!!!? The encouraging part is that, at least here in Atlanta, many people see this as absolutely crazy and are refusing to open hair salons, etc. One lady on the local news last night said she polled her staff, and they had a resounding “&%$# No!” in response. In the absence of clear minded leadership, we are going to have to rely on the common sense of the public, which is a pretty scary thought! My biggest question would be: Why THOSE businesses? They would seem to be the absolute WORST choices possible. Long term physical contact and exposure in a confined space. I have yet to see the rationale for this, and I’ve been watching!
plenzmd1 Posted April 23, 2020 Posted April 23, 2020 Cmon @Augie, we need a control group and placebo for older Americans..you fit the bill! I will buy you were first meal at Golden Corral on Monday! 1
Saxum Posted April 23, 2020 Posted April 23, 2020 35 minutes ago, Figster said: Good points Limeaid, Myself personally though, If I had to take a senior citizen to a doctors appointment for instance and by way of example I would prefer them wearing an N95 mask regardless. Car might break down on the way. Police might pull you over. The home or facility a senior citizen lives in requires routine maintenance. Heat and air, plumbing. Plumbers with bad teeth and farting butt cracks showing ( that one's for Gu) Cooking, cleaning. As your typical senior citizen I'm not sure it would be wise to rely on everyone else you may encounter for your own personal protection IMO. For a senior citizen it is better to wear a regular mask and a face shield. I dislike the hard ones and like the ones my wife made for me but it would need to be reworked for not everyone has a place they can put mask aside for 2 days to allow any viruses to decompose.
OldTimeAFLGuy Posted April 23, 2020 Posted April 23, 2020 (edited) 4 hours ago, Figster said: Mistakes happen, absolutely. Having worked in a training center for Bartlett Nuclear teaching men and women how to suit up and protect themselves in often times a very dangerous environment. I've witnessed 1st hand the kind of mistakes that can happen. You know what though? They learned, and after awhile it became 2nd nature. Our country needs to prepare itself for the future. Nobody wants a future wearing masks. On the other hand everyone wants a future including the elderly and most vulnerable. Myself personally, If I'm president I'm mass producing the N95 mask and the reopening of the country in phases corresponds with the amount of N95 masks I can supply to the general public. Opening restraunts? Are you kidding me... ...agree 100% 'Fig......the cousin of a work colleague is an RN who happened to draw blood from one of the first probable Covid-19 case hospitalizations here in Rochester.....as a precaution, she wanted to get tested because of the exposure....she went to a drive-thru testing site and while in line, she observed a PPE bin blow over and the PPE materials blowing all over.....a med type person dressed only in scrubs ran out and starting picking up the PPE, clutching them to her scrubs with NO PPE, gloves or mask......as a courtesy, the RN reported it to the Health Dept. where a rep said, "...guess we have a lot of work to do (training)"....just think these folks use their hearts first to help others before using their heads as far as self-protection......hope this person as well as similar others end up ok.......... Edited April 23, 2020 by OldTimeAFLGuy 1
Figster Posted April 23, 2020 Posted April 23, 2020 1 minute ago, Limeaid said: For a senior citizen it is better to wear a regular mask and a face shield. I dislike the hard ones and like the ones my wife made for me but it would need to be reworked for not everyone has a place they can put mask aside for 2 days to allow any viruses to decompose. Better? So the most vulnerable in our society are wearing a mask that still leaves them vulnerable? when we have something safer? These same senior citizens are the one's going on ventilators in big numbers, many not surviving. I respectfully disagree. Just now, OldTimeAFLGuy said: ...agree 100% 'Fig......the cousin of a work colleague is an RN who happened to draw blood from one of the first probable Covid-19 case hospitalizations here in Rochester.....as a precaution, she wanted to get tested because of the exposure....she went to a drive-thru testing site and while in line, she observed a PPE bin blow over and the PPE materials blowing all over.....a med type person dressed only in scrubs ran out and starting picking up the PPE, clutching it to her scrubs with NO PPE, gloves or mask......as a courtesy, the RN reported it to the Health Dept. where a rep said, "...guess we have a lot of work to do (training)"....just think these folks use their hearts first to help others before using their heads as far as self-protection......hope this person as well as similar others end up ok.......... Been worried about you my OldTime friend, Great to see you posting...
OldTimeAFLGuy Posted April 23, 2020 Posted April 23, 2020 1 minute ago, Figster said: Better? So the most vulnerable in our society are wearing a mask that still leaves them vulnerable? when we have something safer? These same senior citizens are the one's going on ventilators in big numbers, many not surviving. I respectfully disagree. ....I'm probably wrong, but isn't the premise of a mask to protect others from you versus protecting you from others?.......
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