Augie Posted March 1, 2020 Posted March 1, 2020 1 minute ago, ScottLaw said: Somebody will be fired if they get swept by the Patriots again and go one and done or miss the playoffs altogether. One and done and somebody gets fired? I wish I was a gambling man, but fortunately I don’t need your money. Our GM and HC are very well respected and are not on a hot seat. If they lost their jobs with us people would line up to hire them. I trust our FO and I am confident they will be given every opportunity to continue on their path. As long as we continue to make progress, I feel confident they are totally safe. 1
Happy Posted March 1, 2020 Posted March 1, 2020 17 minutes ago, Augie said: Or.......what? That sounds like an ultimatum. We have discussed the situation with the team, but I never saw it as “excuses”. More like “explanations”. We could win 11-12 games and still not win the division. Brady is a shadow of his former self, so I seriously doubt that happens, but I don’t see NOW as the time to draw a line in the sand. We were fortunate with injuries last year. What if we get wrecked this year? I’m with you that I hope for a leap forward and the division. We have a lot of unknowns going forward, but I know we’ve made the playoffs 2 of the last 3 years after a LONG drought. I appreciate the coach and the regime and I will just hope for continued progress. How long do you want to go 9-7 to 10-6 and losing in the Wildcard round? I get that McD and Beane intentionally rebuilt the team to the way they wanted and acquired the players they wanted. In today's NFL, a 5 year rebuild is dragging things out. This is year 4 coming up and expectations should be high. Look at SF, John Lynch and Kyle Shanahan took the helm in 2017 and changed the entire roster, in 2019 they went to the SB. What is the excuse for failing to at least get to the AFCC this year?
Augie Posted March 1, 2020 Posted March 1, 2020 2 minutes ago, Happy Gilmore said: How long do you want to go 9-7 to 10-6 and losing in the Wildcard round? I get that McD and Beane intentionally rebuilt the team to the way they wanted and acquired the players they wanted. In today's NFL, a 5 year rebuild is dragging things out. This is year 4 coming up and expectations should be high. Look at SF, John Lynch and Kyle Shanahan took the helm in 2017 and changed the entire roster, in 2019 they went to the SB. What is the excuse for failing to at least get to the AFCC this year? SF sucked until Belichick gave them a QB for spare change. I actually love and respect what they’ve done, but I’m not throwing out what we have and starting over if we only win 10 games and that’s not enough for you. People like to point to the outliers and say “we’re not that!” No, they are the outliers. Does the Steelers franchise suck? No, but they are solid. They are almost always in the playoffs, and they often have a chance to win it all. Year after year after year. Decade after decade. They do that by being patient and not freaking out because we didn’t win enough or fast enough. How many coaches have they had in the last four decades? Churning thru coaches because of impatient fans......sounds like the Browns. NO THANK YOU. 1
Happy Posted March 1, 2020 Posted March 1, 2020 12 minutes ago, Augie said: SF sucked until Belichick gave them a QB for spare change. I actually love and respect what they’ve done, but I’m not throwing out what we have and starting over if we only win 10 games and that’s not enough for you. People like to point to the outliers and say “we’re not that!” No, they are the outliers. Does the Steelers franchise suck? No, but they are solid. They are almost always in the playoffs, and they often have a chance to win it all. Year after year after year. Decade after decade. They do that by being patient and not freaking out because we didn’t win enough or fast enough. How many coaches have they had in the last four decades? Churning thru coaches because of impatient fans......sounds like the Browns. NO THANK YOU. So making good personnel decisions and building key areas (i.e. offensive and defensive lines) is an outlier? I beg to differ; what SF did is repeatable. Getting Garappolo was one piece of the puzzle, as is getting Josh Allen. The most important piece, IMO, is philosophy. They built the trenches by focusing a lot of resources on them, then filled out from there. McD and Beane seem to be DB focused, which I personally feel is the wrong approach. It leaves you vulnerable to being run on and not getting pressure on the QB (defensively), and not having consistent run lanes open as well as constant pressure on your QB (offensively.) Again, how long do you want to go 10-6 or 9-7 and be one and done in the playoffs? The Pegulas have to ask themselves how long should being a legitimate SB contender take. 1 1
Augie Posted March 1, 2020 Posted March 1, 2020 Just now, Happy Gilmore said: So making good personnel decisions and building key areas (i.e. offensive and defensive lines) is an outlier? I beg to differ; what SF did is repeatable. Getting Garappolo was one piece of the puzzle, as is getting Josh Allen. The most important piece, IMO, is philosophy. They built the trenches by focusing a lot of resources on them, then filled out from there. McD and Beane seem to be DB focused, which I personally feel is the wrong approach. It leaves you vulnerable to being run on and not getting pressure on the QB (defensively), and not having consistent run lanes open as well as constant pressure on your QB (offensively.) Again, how long do you want to go 10-6 or 9-7 and be one and done in the playoffs? The Pegulas have to ask themselves how long should being a legitimate SB contender take. Absolutely! What SF did WAS an outlier. How is that arguable? If it was “common”, everyone would have done it, and then it wouldn’t be special. Right? I like their model, and I’m all for replicating it. We just didn’t get a vet backup QB who sat behind Brady for years. Or a Mahomes who sat behind Alex Smith on an already playoff team while being coached by Andy Reid. I’m cool with being in the playoffs 90% of the time and a serious SB contender almost half of the time. I’m not stupid, or greedy. The other teams have professional players and coaches, too.
Augie Posted March 1, 2020 Posted March 1, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, ScottLaw said: I was referring more to the OC as the guy going down.... either way there would be some sort of change if the team gets swept again by the Patriots to make it 0-8 for McDs career against BB or they go one and done in the playoffs. I apparently have less obsession with the cheaters than others. Every year is a new year. It’s not about a single opponent or what happened with the Dolphins in the 70’s or the Pat’s more recently. That attitude feels, to me, like a beaten and skittish dog and I’m not going there. Refuse to go there. I’d prefer they manage Daboll up and get him where they want him to be. That’s what the better companies would do it. Don’t start all over when you can just improve what you already have in place. I think/hope that can work. . Edited March 1, 2020 by Augie
Happy Posted March 1, 2020 Posted March 1, 2020 6 minutes ago, Augie said: Absolutely! What SF did WAS an outlier. How is that arguable? If it was “common”, everyone would have done it, and then it wouldn’t be special. Right? I like their model, and I’m all for replicating it. We just didn’t get a vet backup QB who sat behind Brady for years. Or a Mahomes who sat behind Alex Smith on an already playoff team while being coached by Andy Reid. I’m cool with being in the playoffs 90% of the time and a serious SB contender almost half of the time. I’m not stupid, or greedy. The other teams have professional players and coaches, too. SF may be considered an outlier by some only because few teams have a GM as good as John Lynch, or an offensive mind as good as Kyle Shanahan. Game management-wise, Kyle is still learning, but that is beside the point. McD and Beane need to step it up this year - beat NE, win the division, and be a legitimate SB contender. I don't think they necessarily need to go to the SB, but they need to take a step forward. Anything less is either status quo or a step back; either one and changes need to be made. Can't accept platitudes in lieu of progress. 1
BillsVet Posted March 1, 2020 Posted March 1, 2020 13 hours ago, Chicken Boo said: I love that people are raising their standards for this team. At minimum, this team had better beat New England in one of the matchups. Yes, this is good. But there's a lot of flexibility with regard to standards. As in, you get off to a 5-2 start and a pre-season prediction of 9-7 isn't sufficient anymore. Barring a major injury, Buffalo must be expected both right now and when the season starts to be in the playoffs and get a win there. Other teams are doing it in less time, so why shouldn't the Bills?
Augie Posted March 1, 2020 Posted March 1, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Happy Gilmore said: SF may be considered an outlier by some only because few teams have a GM as good as John Lynch, or an offensive mind as good as Kyle Shanahan. Game management-wise, Kyle is still learning, but that is beside the point. McD and Beane need to step it up this year - beat NE, win the division, and be a legitimate SB contender. I don't think they necessarily need to go to the SB, but they need to take a step forward. Anything less is either status quo or a step back; either one and changes need to be made. Can't accept platitudes in lieu of progress. For you. WHY you are an outlier does not make you any less of an outlier. I will wait to see how things go. What injuries happen. How tough the schedule is. How the draft and FA work out. I’ll try to get a feel for our trajectory. Keep making progress and I’m good. I suspect the Pegulas will look at it more my way than yours. I’ll look for progress, from Josh and the team. Be prepared to be disappointed if you don’t get everything on your wish list. . . Edited March 1, 2020 by Augie
Mr. WEO Posted March 1, 2020 Posted March 1, 2020 1 hour ago, Augie said: I apparently have less obsession with the cheaters than others. Every year is a new year. It’s not about a single opponent or what happened with the Dolphins in the 70’s or the Pat’s more recently. That attitude feels, to me, like a beaten and skittish dog and I’m not going there. Refuse to go there. I’d prefer they manage Daboll up and get him where they want him to be. That’s what the better companies would do it. Don’t start all over when you can just improve what you already have in place. I think/hope that can work. . Exactly who is going to “manage Daboll up”? This guy has been everywhere for years and there isn’t some Offensive guru hiding behind the curtain, and it’s clear that McD isn’t much help Offensively
Augie Posted March 1, 2020 Posted March 1, 2020 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said: Exactly who is going to “manage Daboll up”? This guy has been everywhere for years and there isn’t some Offensive guru hiding behind the curtain, and it’s clear that McD isn’t much help Offensively I think it’s clear that McD is extremely self aware and looking to get better in every respect. That includes his staff. This may be news to some folks, but it’s possible for people to get better at their jobs. In fact, I hope the same has been true for you over the last few years. Tell me, do you think you will be better or worse at your job next year compared to the previous year? I’d like a direct better or worse answer. Edited March 1, 2020 by Augie
Mr. WEO Posted March 1, 2020 Posted March 1, 2020 3 minutes ago, Augie said: I think it’s clear that McD is extremely self aware and looking to get better in every respect. That includes his staff. This may be news to some folks, but it’s possible for people to get better at their jobs. In fact, I hope the same has been true for you over the last few years. Tell me, do you think you will be better or worse at your job next year compared to the previous year? I’d like a direct better or worse answer. My employer is hoping “better” but to them that just means “more”. In addition to producing more, everyday I am teaching the next generation how to do MY job, not someone else’s job. Daboll has been taught by BB and Sabin. That’s as good as it gets in his business. Yet, after years in the business, he still needs to be “managed up”? And the guy who watched as Daboll iced the running game with a 3 score lead in a playoff game is the guy who is going to “manage up” Daboll? That makes little sense to me. 1
Augie Posted March 1, 2020 Posted March 1, 2020 2 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said: My employer is hoping “better” but to them that just means “more”. In addition to producing more, everyday I am teaching the next generation how to do MY job, not someone else’s job. Daboll has been taught by BB and Sabin. That’s as good as it gets in his business. Yet, after years in the business, he still needs to be “managed up”? And the guy who watched as Daboll iced the running game with a 3 score lead in a playoff game is the guy who is going to “manage up” Daboll? That makes little sense to me. MORE is always the first expectation of management. It’s not ways reasonable, but you can count on that. So Daboll has a good pedigree is now a reason to push him OUT? Nice attempt at twisting that argument. I am NOT saying he’s the guy, but I don’t like change for the hell of it like the Browns. He gets far too cute at times, I get it. What did the Browns fans say about Belichick? I’m on e to be patient and let things work out. Knee jerk reactions are generally bad management. Did Belichick ever stop trying to get better? I’m not saying he’s the next BB, but pointing no out coaches and players can keep improving. Why is that so hard to understand?
Mr. WEO Posted March 1, 2020 Posted March 1, 2020 6 hours ago, Augie said: MORE is always the first expectation of management. It’s not ways reasonable, but you can count on that. So Daboll has a good pedigree is now a reason to push him OUT? Nice attempt at twisting that argument. I am NOT saying he’s the guy, but I don’t like change for the hell of it like the Browns. He gets far too cute at times, I get it. What did the Browns fans say about Belichick? I’m on e to be patient and let things work out. Knee jerk reactions are generally bad management. Did Belichick ever stop trying to get better? I’m not saying he’s the next BB, but pointing no out coaches and players can keep improving. Why is that so hard to understand? I think the Browns fans are still saying: "thanks BB, for our only playoff win in the past 25 years (with Vinny Testaverde/Mark Rypien, no less)". But forget the Browns, they really have nothing to do with this conversation (talk about twisting!). No, Daboll has a pretty bad pedigree...as an NFL OC. Failure at the Browns. Failure at Miami. Lasted one year at KC. So then he gets bumped down to an assistant/position coach for 4 years at NE (this is after 7 years with NE at the start of the Brady era (2000-06). The BEST possible scenario for a failed OC to regroup and get "managed up", no? He basks in their associated success and lands a job at Bama as co-OC/QB coach. Another year with one of the best coaching minds in existence on an organization that is a winning machine. This, after 1 season, puts him on the Bills staff for his 4th NFL stint as OC. The result? No good...but, "He just needs to be managed up"! He has been managed by the game's best managements. There is no BB or Saban on the Bills staff (not that it has matter as far as managing Daboll up in the past). So I would again ask: who on this staff is going to do what the best have not thus far been able to do for or with Daboll, a guy who has been on NFL coaching staffs for 19 years now? It's a very simple question.
SoTier Posted March 1, 2020 Posted March 1, 2020 10 hours ago, Happy Gilmore said: How long do you want to go 9-7 to 10-6 and losing in the Wildcard round? I get that McD and Beane intentionally rebuilt the team to the way they wanted and acquired the players they wanted. In today's NFL, a 5 year rebuild is dragging things out. This is year 4 coming up and expectations should be high. Look at SF, John Lynch and Kyle Shanahan took the helm in 2017 and changed the entire roster, in 2019 they went to the SB. What is the excuse for failing to at least get to the AFCC this year? My fear is that this may very well be considered "good enough" not only by many fans but by the Pegulas as well. Certainly if the FO fails to upgrade key offensive positions, it will be a strong signal that that's their mindset. A team can be beset by injuries (see Pittsburgh and Philly) or a team's QB may not be the guy they hoped he would be (see Trubisky and Mariota) but if the FO isn't committed to putting a serious Super Bowl contender out on the field every year by developing/acquiring playmakers, the chances of that team ever winning the Lombardi become slim or none (see Cincinatti). IMO winning the division because the rest of the division are bottom feeders means nothing. Winning in the playoffs is what counts, and unless the Bills improve significantly on offense, they're unlikely to do much of that. So, for me, minimum success in 2020, barring some problem outside the team's control, winning at least one playoff game and having a real chance to win the next one in the fourth quarter. 9 hours ago, Augie said: Absolutely! What SF did WAS an outlier. How is that arguable? If it was “common”, everyone would have done it, and then it wouldn’t be special. Right? I like their model, and I’m all for replicating it. We just didn’t get a vet backup QB who sat behind Brady for years. Or a Mahomes who sat behind Alex Smith on an already playoff team while being coached by Andy Reid. I’m cool with being in the playoffs 90% of the time and a serious SB contender almost half of the time. I’m not stupid, or greedy. The other teams have professional players and coaches, too. I don't think that SF is that much of an outlier in the current NFL, which is what Happy Gillmore was referencing. San Francisco lost in the NFCCCG in Jim Harbaugh's first season (2011) and lost the Super Bowl the next year (2012). Seattle lost in the divisional round in Pete Carroll's third season (2012) and won the Super Bowl the next year (2013). Philadelphia won the SB in Doug Pederson's 2nd season (2017). Los Angeles Rams lost in the WC round in Sean McVay's first season (2017) and made the Super Bowl in his second (2019). Chicago won 12 games and lost in the WC round in Matt Nagy's first season (2018) but backslid in 2019 at least partly (and possibly primarily) because Trubisky hasn't developed as expected. Green Bay won 13 games and lost in the NFCCCG in Matt LaFleur's first season (2019). San Francisco lost in the SB in Kyle Shanahan's third season (2019). In the fourth season of a rebuild, barring key injuries, if the Bills do not do better than one and done in the playoffs, then it raises serious questions about Beane/McDermott's ability to produce a serious Super Bowl contender. 8 hours ago, Mr. WEO said: Exactly who is going to “manage Daboll up”? This guy has been everywhere for years and there isn’t some Offensive guru hiding behind the curtain, and it’s clear that McD isn’t much help Offensively If Beane doesn't upgrade the offensive talent then I'm not willing to blame Daboll for the Bills offensive failures. OCs and position coaches can't turn JAGs and non-NFL caliber players into playmakers, and that's what the Bills have had way too many of on offense in the McDermott/Beane regime. 2 1
Mr. WEO Posted March 1, 2020 Posted March 1, 2020 47 minutes ago, SoTier said: My fear is that this may very well be considered "good enough" not only by many fans but by the Pegulas as well. Certainly if the FO fails to upgrade key offensive positions, it will be a strong signal that that's their mindset. A team can be beset by injuries (see Pittsburgh and Philly) or a team's QB may not be the guy they hoped he would be (see Trubisky and Mariota) but if the FO isn't committed to putting a serious Super Bowl contender out on the field every year by developing/acquiring playmakers, the chances of that team ever winning the Lombardi become slim or none (see Cincinatti). IMO winning the division because the rest of the division are bottom feeders means nothing. Winning in the playoffs is what counts, and unless the Bills improve significantly on offense, they're unlikely to do much of that. So, for me, minimum success in 2020, barring some problem outside the team's control, winning at least one playoff game and having a real chance to win the next one in the fourth quarter. I don't think that SF is that much of an outlier in the current NFL, which is what Happy Gillmore was referencing. San Francisco lost in the NFCCCG in Jim Harbaugh's first season (2011) and lost the Super Bowl the next year (2012). Seattle lost in the divisional round in Pete Carroll's third season (2012) and won the Super Bowl the next year (2013). Philadelphia won the SB in Doug Pederson's 2nd season (2017). Los Angeles Rams lost in the WC round in Sean McVay's first season (2017) and made the Super Bowl in his second (2019). Chicago won 12 games and lost in the WC round in Matt Nagy's first season (2018) but backslid in 2019 at least partly (and possibly primarily) because Trubisky hasn't developed as expected. Green Bay won 13 games and lost in the NFCCCG in Matt LaFleur's first season (2019). San Francisco lost in the SB in Kyle Shanahan's third season (2019). In the fourth season of a rebuild, barring key injuries, if the Bills do not do better than one and done in the playoffs, then it raises serious questions about Beane/McDermott's ability to produce a serious Super Bowl contender. If Beane doesn't upgrade the offensive talent then I'm not willing to blame Daboll for the Bills offensive failures. OCs and position coaches can't turn JAGs and non-NFL caliber players into playmakers, and that's what the Bills have had way too many of on offense in the McDermott/Beane regime. Good stuff. Yes, McD is entering his 4th draft announcing they need to score more points. But I would think both McD and Daboll could have each independently (or even discussing it together) come to conclusion that, up by 16 points midway through the 3rd Q in their 2nd playoff game of the century, it was to really put Devin Singletary to work and let the D and the run squeeze out the clock. Instead, from the point they were 16-0 in the 3rd, Singletary would rush only 2 more times. McD watched Daboll call a million pass plays as the lead was pissed away. How does that happen with an OC with 19 years of NFL experience in his 4th job as OC?
Happy Posted March 1, 2020 Posted March 1, 2020 1 hour ago, SoTier said: My fear is that this may very well be considered "good enough" not only by many fans but by the Pegulas as well. Certainly if the FO fails to upgrade key offensive positions, it will be a strong signal that that's their mindset. A team can be beset by injuries (see Pittsburgh and Philly) or a team's QB may not be the guy they hoped he would be (see Trubisky and Mariota) but if the FO isn't committed to putting a serious Super Bowl contender out on the field every year by developing/acquiring playmakers, the chances of that team ever winning the Lombardi become slim or none (see Cincinatti). IMO winning the division because the rest of the division are bottom feeders means nothing. Winning in the playoffs is what counts, and unless the Bills improve significantly on offense, they're unlikely to do much of that. So, for me, minimum success in 2020, barring some problem outside the team's control, winning at least one playoff game and having a real chance to win the next one in the fourth quarter. I feel the same way, especially about the "good enough" part. Too many people are so giddy that we went 10-6 and made the playoffs, and that is good enough going forward. Well, if they look underneath the hood, there are some glaring weaknesses...both coaching and player personnel wise. The players can be upgraded, but the coaching staff I'm concerned about, especially philosophy as seen during the playoff loss. 1
Billl Posted March 1, 2020 Posted March 1, 2020 10 hours ago, Happy Gilmore said: SF may be considered an outlier by some only because few teams have a GM as good as John Lynch, or an offensive mind as good as Kyle Shanahan. Game management-wise, Kyle is still learning, but that is beside the point. McD and Beane need to step it up this year - beat NE, win the division, and be a legitimate SB contender. I don't think they necessarily need to go to the SB, but they need to take a step forward. Anything less is either status quo or a step back; either one and changes need to be made. Can't accept platitudes in lieu of progress. SF is an outlier because they built a team to compete in 2018 but then lost their QB early in the season and were able to draft another star with the second pick in the draft. If the Bills could draft Chase Young and then have the second picks in each of the following rounds, it would be a huge boost to the franchise. Combine that with the fact they they got equal or better production at the QB spot while spending only a fraction of the assets to acquire him, and you’ve got an outlier. I don’t know if their plan is going to work, but McBeane have a vision, and they have executed it to perfection. If they targeted the right guy at QB, the Bills will be a factor in the AFC for a long time.
Happy Posted March 1, 2020 Posted March 1, 2020 2 minutes ago, Billl said: SF is an outlier because they built a team to compete in 2018 but then lost their QB early in the season and were able to draft another star with the second pick in the draft. If the Bills could draft Chase Young and then have the second picks in each of the following rounds, it would be a huge boost to the franchise. Combine that with the fact they they got equal or better production at the QB spot while spending only a fraction of the assets to acquire him, and you’ve got an outlier. I don’t know if their plan is going to work, but McBeane have a vision, and they have executed it to perfection. If they targeted the right guy at QB, the Bills will be a factor in the AFC for a long time. I think you miss the point on SF. They built from the lines out; i.e. the o-line and d-line are where their resources went first, and that goes a long way toward helping your QB. Jimmy G is not a superstar, he's ok. If SF didn't have a very good o-line, no way they come close to the SB. I don't think the key for the Bills is another QB. They need to address the right side of the line and get a WR1 and RB, offensively. They need to get an OLB, and DE this year on defense. 1
Billl Posted March 1, 2020 Posted March 1, 2020 11 minutes ago, Happy Gilmore said: I think you miss the point on SF. They built from the lines out; i.e. the o-line and d-line are where their resources went first, and that goes a long way toward helping your QB. Jimmy G is not a superstar, he's ok. If SF didn't have a very good o-line, no way they come close to the SB. I don't think the key for the Bills is another QB. They need to address the right side of the line and get a WR1 and RB, offensively. They need to get an OLB, and DE this year on defense. That doesn’t make them any less of an outlier. SF two years ago was in a similar position to Buffalo in 2019, but JG got hurt and the season cratered. They drafted Nick Bosa at 2 whereas Allen had a healthy season and will pick 26th. The 26th pick last year was also a DE, but it was Montez Sweat instead of Bosa. Then in the second round, they got Deebo. Do you think they make the Super Bowl by drafting Sweat and Paris Campbell instead of Bosa and Samuel? I sure don’t. If Buffalo drafts the next Bosa and Deebo, they're in the mix for a Super Bowl next year.
Recommended Posts