Shaw66 Posted February 28, 2020 Posted February 28, 2020 5 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: I think Allen is better athletically by miles, but maybe that’s just me. EJM was athletic in college and could escape and run but it didn’t translate to the pros for whatever reason. That was the unknown for Allen -would it translate? It was clear by halftime in the 2nd game he started that the answer was “oh hell Yes, now can we keep him from getting Kilt?” Allen actually joked about it with the MC in a Top Golf fluff piece last off season. MC said “kid from the Mountain West conference, he’s gonna turn out to be a freak athlete in the NFL, is what everyone was thinking.” Allen quipped “yeah, me neither.” "me, neither." That's great! And I had the same reaction after seeing Allen for a game or two in his rookie season. Actually, I had my first reaction was when he made a couple of unbelievable throws in preseason. It was obvious he's a special thrower. Then he torched the Vikings, and I was sold. I looked a few minutes ago at some sight that listed a variety of athletic measurables, just to see how Allen and EJ compared. In several categories - size, foot speed, agility - they were quite similar. What surprised me was the one place where they were dramatically different, and it says a lot about which guy can succeed in the NFL. EJ's throwing release velocity wasn't in the same county as Allen's. 1
krf139 Posted February 28, 2020 Posted February 28, 2020 1 hour ago, whorlnut said: Derp... You’re completely clueless if you think Allen and EJ have anything in common other than they both play qb dnd were drafted by the Bills, then I have nothing for you... Both mobile Both have accuracy issues Both have big hands Both have never won a playoff game Both are good guys, hard workers, easy to like I could go on..
Hapless Bills Fan Posted February 28, 2020 Posted February 28, 2020 8 minutes ago, Shaw66 said: "me, neither." That's great! And I had the same reaction after seeing Allen for a game or two in his rookie season. Actually, I had my first reaction was when he made a couple of unbelievable throws in preseason. It was obvious he's a special thrower. Then he torched the Vikings, and I was sold. I looked a few minutes ago at some sight that listed a variety of athletic measurables, just to see how Allen and EJ compared. In several categories - size, foot speed, agility - they were quite similar. What surprised me was the one place where they were dramatically different, and it says a lot about which guy can succeed in the NFL. EJ's throwing release velocity wasn't in the same county as Allen's. I’d love the linky to that site if you have it. I think there’s a mental aspect to it. I think Allen actually relishes contact, maybe more than his coaches like. I think it revs him up to stiff-arm a guy and make 3 defenders miss and then if one of them shoestrings him he’s like “first down MF!” I think in the NFL, where the guys are bigger and hit harder, EJM didn’t like it and after he was injured his rookie year it spooked him a bit. Whereas Allen still needs his teammates to get in his ear and yell at him for running “head first into other human beings” as Lee Smith put it. I also think EJM’s field vision and pocket sense couldn’t operate at NFL speed, so he couldn’t figure out where to go to make guys miss. Allen is a work in progress but I was pleased with how his “pocket sense” seemed to improve from yr 1 to 2 and he seems consistently able to make guys miss. 1
Shaw66 Posted February 28, 2020 Posted February 28, 2020 2 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said: Thanks for the grown up response. I don’t think he would say he was behind where he would be though but you make some good points. And Allen has shown flashes of dominance but it hasn’t been substantiated through a full game, except perhaps the Miami games. He definitely dominates Miami. and hap makes a good point about the fear of interceptions possibly affecting the deep ball. Part of me wants them to just like Allen let it rip and see if can carry us (the definition of a franchise qb). But I guess the other part is that could lead to more ints which could affect winning. You know, I think the thing about dominating games is just premature. That is, it's asking a lot for a second year QB to dominate games consistently. Frankly, I don't understand how Mahomes is able to do it. The other youngsters who have done it had the benefit of scheme and coaching, which masks, I think, the fact that they aren't yet able to dominate games in a full-fledged NFL offense. I think the typical guys one thinks of as dominating games are Rodgers and Brady, Brees and Roethlisberger, Wilson. What they have in common is brains and a lot of experience, which makes them the proverbial coach-on-the-field, with the physical tools to deliver on what they're seeing. It comes with time, so I'm not terribly troubled that we aren't seeing that dominance yet from Allen. The whole question about Allen (and any other young QB, like Wentz and Goff and Lamar Jackson) is whether they can continue to grow into that kind of dominant QB, The young guy who seems to be on the right path is DeShaun Watson - every season he looks to me like he's seeing the field and making the right decisions. And I've always liked Tannehill, and he might be on the way, too. People pooh-pooh him, but he has the physical tools and at least this season, it looked like he needed to get out of the mess in Miami to begin to play sophisticated football. 1
Shaw66 Posted February 28, 2020 Posted February 28, 2020 6 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: I’d love the linky to that site if you have it. I think there’s a mental aspect to it. I think Allen actually relishes contact, maybe more than his coaches like. I think it revs him up to stiff-arm a guy and make 3 defenders miss and then if one of them shoestrings him he’s like “first down MF!” I think in the NFL, where the guys are bigger and hit harder, EJM didn’t like it and after he was injured his rookie year it spooked him a bit. Whereas Allen still needs his teammates to get in his ear and yell at him for running “head first into other human beings” as Lee Smith put it. I also think EJM’s field vision and pocket sense couldn’t operate at NFL speed, so he couldn’t figure out where to go to make guys miss. Allen is a work in progress but I was pleased with how his “pocket sense” seemed to improve from yr 1 to 2 and he seems consistently able to make guys miss. I think those are great points. You're absolutely right about EJ and contact. Here's where I found a little data: https://www.playerprofiler.com/nfl/ej-manuel/ I'd never been to that site before, but it looks pretty interesting. It has an interesting collection of data on each player. 1
Shaw66 Posted February 28, 2020 Posted February 28, 2020 44 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: I think there’s a mental aspect to it. I think Allen actually relishes contact, maybe more than his coaches like. I think it revs him up to stiff-arm a guy and make 3 defenders miss and then if one of them shoestrings him he’s like “first down MF!” I think in the NFL, where the guys are bigger and hit harder, EJM didn’t like it and after he was injured his rookie year it spooked him a bit. Whereas Allen still needs his teammates to get in his ear and yell at him for running “head first into other human beings” as Lee Smith put it. On more thing about this contact thing. I've reluctantly come around to agreeing that Brady is an amazing quarterback, but one of his few shortcomings is his response to contact. He really doesn't like it. We've all seen his productivity go down in games where he gets hit a lot. They've taught him that there's always another play and that it's okay to go down, avoid the contact, stay healthy and move on the next play, and Brady has enthusiastically adopted that philosophy. He gives himself up a lot. I think that in tough games he leaves a play or two a game on the field, because he isn't always willing to stand in there and take the hit.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted February 28, 2020 Posted February 28, 2020 2 minutes ago, Shaw66 said: On more thing about this contact thing. I've reluctantly come around to agreeing that Brady is an amazing quarterback, but one of his few shortcomings is his response to contact. He really doesn't like it. We've all seen his productivity go down in games where he gets hit a lot. They've taught him that there's always another play and that it's okay to go down, avoid the contact, stay healthy and move on the next play, and Brady has enthusiastically adopted that philosophy. He gives himself up a lot. I think that in tough games he leaves a play or two a game on the field, because he isn't always willing to stand in there and take the hit. The man’s a first ballot hall of famer, has a Super Bowl ring for his L thumb to go with one for each finger on the right, two more SB appearances, and has played at a high level into his 40s. I find it hard to criticize an aspect of his play that has likely contributed to all the above. People focus on running QB getting hurt, but I think just as many QB injuries or more occur behind the LOS. 1
Shaw66 Posted February 28, 2020 Posted February 28, 2020 7 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: The man’s a first ballot hall of famer, has a Super Bowl ring for his L thumb to go with one for each finger on the right, two more SB appearances, and has played at a high level into his 40s. I find it hard to criticize an aspect of his play that has likely contributed to all the above. People focus on running QB getting hurt, but I think just as many QB injuries or more occur behind the LOS. Agreed. That fact that he gives up on plays that Rodgers and Brees don't give up on is a testament to how great Brady has been - he hasn't needed the big play he could occasionally get by taking a hit - he's been great without it. My point was that his discomfort with being hit is apparent, and Allen doesn't have that limitation. Allen has to learn to protect himself better, but I don't think we'll ever see him going down like Brady.
njbuff Posted February 28, 2020 Posted February 28, 2020 More than anything, Allen STILL has that mentality that he has to do it ALL by himself. He has to realize that he has talented teammates that will help him. This offseason should give Allen that confidence that he doesn't need to be a one man gang.
Shaw66 Posted February 28, 2020 Posted February 28, 2020 27 minutes ago, njbuff said: More than anything, Allen STILL has that mentality that he has to do it ALL by himself. He has to realize that he has talented teammates that will help him. This offseason should give Allen that confidence that he doesn't need to be a one man gang. I think that's a fundamental misinterpretation of who Allen is. I'll agree, he still has the mentality the he CAN do whatever it takes, all by himself, but his play and progress from year one to year two are pretty good evidence, I think, that he's all-in on the team concept. There's a difference between supreme self-confidence, which I think Allen has, and a belief that he has to do it all himself. He's not Mike Vick, Jay Cutler, or Cam Newton.
C.Biscuit97 Posted February 28, 2020 Posted February 28, 2020 40 minutes ago, Shaw66 said: I think that's a fundamental misinterpretation of who Allen is. I'll agree, he still has the mentality the he CAN do whatever it takes, all by himself, but his play and progress from year one to year two are pretty good evidence, I think, that he's all-in on the team concept. There's a difference between supreme self-confidence, which I think Allen has, and a belief that he has to do it all himself. He's not Mike Vick, Jay Cutler, or Cam Newton. I was agreeing with a lot of your post but you have some weird hatred for Cam. He is loved by his teammates. The people who dislike him are older fans.
whorlnut Posted February 28, 2020 Posted February 28, 2020 3 hours ago, krf139 said: Both mobile Both have accuracy issues Both have big hands Both have never won a playoff game Both are good guys, hard workers, easy to like I could go on.. This is pathetic. So I guess they are the same guy right? SMH...
Saxum Posted February 28, 2020 Posted February 28, 2020 3 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: I think Allen is better athletically by miles, but maybe that’s just me. EJM was athletic in college and could escape and run but it didn’t translate to the pros for whatever reason. That was the unknown for Allen -would it translate? It was clear by halftime in the 2nd game he started that the answer was “oh hell Yes, now can we keep him from getting Kilt?” Allen actually joked about it with the MC in a Top Golf fluff piece last off season. MC said “kid from the Mountain West conference, he’s gonna turn out to be a freak athlete in the NFL, is what everyone was thinking.” Allen quipped “yeah, me neither.” No problem. Ban all Irish from stadium and he will not be "Kilt". Interesting spell check.
Shaw66 Posted February 28, 2020 Posted February 28, 2020 1 hour ago, C.Biscuit97 said: I was agreeing with a lot of your post but you have some weird hatred for Cam. He is loved by his teammates. The people who dislike him are older fans. Weird? That's funny! Maybe I do. I really don't like the guy as a QB. Every thing about him says "me! Me! ME!!!" Actually, I think Lamar Jackson behaves the same way. All smiles when things are going good, down in the dumps when they aren't. Lamar is loved by his teammates, too. And I'll definitely admit to being an older fan. I was going to leave Cam out of that post because I didn't want to have defend my view of Cam again, but he fit what I was saying so I put him it.
krf139 Posted February 29, 2020 Posted February 29, 2020 5 hours ago, whorlnut said: This is pathetic. So I guess they are the same guy right? SMH... It’s not pathetic. It’s all true. Neither guy proved they are the long term answer. Jury is still out on Josh
whorlnut Posted February 29, 2020 Posted February 29, 2020 2 minutes ago, krf139 said: It’s not pathetic. It’s all true. Neither guy proved they are the long term answer. Jury is still out on Josh If you can’t see the obvious differences then you can’t be helped....
LSHMEAB Posted February 29, 2020 Posted February 29, 2020 (edited) 11 hours ago, Shaw66 said: I think people very much overstate this notion of throwing the receiver open and YAC, Just curious how you arrived at this conclusion. In my estimation, throwing receivers open, which creates opportunities for YAC is going to be vital going forward. Allen is accurate on "stick" routes if you will. Where he needs to improve is ball placement on both the long balls and hitting RB's/TE's/guys like Beasley in stride. If he going to take that next step from decent to elite, improvement in this particular aspect is crucial. Probably why this is such a focal point for Palmer and Allen's offseason training. Edited February 29, 2020 by LSHMEAB
Shaw66 Posted February 29, 2020 Posted February 29, 2020 2 hours ago, LSHMEAB said: Just curious how you arrived at this conclusion. In my estimation, throwing receivers open, which creates opportunities for YAC is going to be vital going forward. Allen is accurate on "stick" routes if you will. Where he needs to improve is ball placement on both the long balls and hitting RB's/TE's/guys like Beasley in stride. If he going to take that next step from decent to elite, improvement in this particular aspect is crucial. Probably why this is such a focal point for Palmer and Allen's offseason training. As I said, I think it's overstated. Neither YAC nor throwing open is anything close to be the most important things about successful qbs. Throwing people open isn't even a stat, it's just a subjective observation about qbs. Completion percentage, yards per attempt, and td-int ratio tell us much more about a qb. People want nuts a few years ago about Tyrod Taylor not throwing over the middle. It was silly how much people harped on it. The reality was if Taylor threw over middle at league average, he would have something like one more completion per game. Do I think Allen could be better throwing receivers open? Yes. I just don't think it's close to the most important thing to get better at. YAC? As someone pointed out, you get YAC throwing to backs and hitting deep balls to receivers. Most fans don't want him throwing more to backs. Yes I'd like Allen to complete more deep balls.
Tesla03 Posted February 29, 2020 Posted February 29, 2020 Allen's deep ball accuracy is due to so many different things First of all, we have no true #1 elite WR. Our oline is also terrible against any form of blitzes. for deep balls to work you need time in the pocket, Allen barely got that last season. I can't remember how many times the oline just collapsed towards the end of games.
LSHMEAB Posted February 29, 2020 Posted February 29, 2020 2 hours ago, Shaw66 said: As I said, I think it's overstated. Neither YAC nor throwing open is anything close to be the most important things about successful qbs. Throwing people open isn't even a stat, it's just a subjective observation about qbs. Completion percentage, yards per attempt, and td-int ratio tell us much more about a qb. People want nuts a few years ago about Tyrod Taylor not throwing over the middle. It was silly how much people harped on it. The reality was if Taylor threw over middle at league average, he would have something like one more completion per game. Do I think Allen could be better throwing receivers open? Yes. I just don't think it's close to the most important thing to get better at. YAC? As someone pointed out, you get YAC throwing to backs and hitting deep balls to receivers. Most fans don't want him throwing more to backs. Yes I'd like Allen to complete more deep balls. We'll have to agree to disagree, but a tangible measure of his improvement in this area WILL be YPA. If you're consistently throwing guys open and hitting targets, it will reflect in the YPA. Josh made tremendous strides in year 2, but the YPA still isn't where it needs to be (at all). Let's just hope they acquire the right offensive personnel so we can assess the QB play with a more comprehensive picture.
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