How would you guys have felt if we had took Rosen instead of Allen

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Just now, BuffaloBills1998 said:

Not That it matters but I really hope Rudolph was not on our board When we were drafting last year that would’ve sucked

 

Pretty sure he was.  I don't think they had a 1st round grade on him, though.

[Alphadawg7]

37 minutes ago, Virgil said:

 

It seemed like Buffalo has a solid 3 year plan for Allen.  They were strategic with what he was asked to do developmentally each season. Peterman being a joke made them escalate the plan a little, but still.  
 

In Arizona, Bradford was meant to be the starter while Rosen sat and learned.  When he was thrown in there, from my understanding, they kinda just threw him out there.   Then, he was jettisoned.  He hasn’t had an offseason as a starter.  
 

I’m not saying this is the reason Rosen is bad right now, I’m saying Allen was given a better plan for development, regardless of skill positions around him 

 

Was Rosen "thrown in there" more than Allen though?  I mean Allen got thrown in middle of the first game after NP crapped the bed.  And this was after Allen spent the whole offseason in a 3 way QB competition, so he got a lot less reps in before he had to step on the field.  Rosen should have been significantly more prepared than Allen to step on the field as he got more reps and more time before he stepped on the field.  Not to mention Rosen was dubbed "The most pro ready" while Allen was dubbed the most "raw" QB in the upper part of the draft.  

 

Rosen had slightly better weapons overall to work with in AZ with the same OL issues and a veteran like Bradford around him during camp and season.  Allen had Nathan Peterman around him and AJM who had done nothing himself.  Allen had worse receivers and a similar bad OL while also playing in the more complicated offense.  

 

Sorry, I mean no disrespect, but this all feels like excuses for Rosen.

 

The reality is Allen earned the trust and belief of his teammates and staff despite all the mistakes and ups and downs...Rosen failed to do that on 2 teams in 2 years.  Its not that Allen was given a better plan, its that Allen earned the confidence of his organization to stick with him and the plan where AZ didn't feel he was worth keeping despite trading up for him and using the 10th pick in the draft on him.  Then, Miami sends a valuable 2nd round pick to obtain him and in a season where they have nothing to play for other than to evaluate the roster, and they also quickly gave up on him and turned to a journeyman in the last years of his career.  

 

I think its time for people to stop making excuses for Rosen and just realize that 2 QB needy teams with significant draft equity invested into him felt he isn't worth the effort. 

Edited February 24, 2020 by Alphadawg7

[frostbitmic]

If we had taken Rosen we'd be in the running for Burrows or Tua this year.

[BuffaloBills1998]

1 minute ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Pretty sure he was.  I don't think they had a 1st round grade on him, though.

Thank god that didn’t happen lol

Just now, frostbitmic said:

If we had taken Rosen we'd be in the running for Burrows or Tua this year.

Not only them but probably would be in the running for one of the Vet QBs in this years free agency 

[Alphadawg7]

12 minutes ago, BringBackOrton said:

Source that Beane didn’t have a first round grade on Rosen?

 

Also, not having a first round grade is not the same as “not having on the board.” 

 

When I say not on the board, I am referencing for when they are picking.  Of course he would be somewhere on the board.  

 

And the Bills board was leaked after the draft if memory serves me is how it became known that neither Baker or Rosen appeared to be in the Bills first round draft plans.  

[Jauronimo]

1 minute ago, Albany,n.y. said:

What the 4 - 9?  Mayfields height?

[BringBackOrton]

Just now, Alphadawg7 said:

 

When I say not on the board, I am referencing for when they are picking.  Of course he would be somewhere on the board.  

 

And the Bills board was leaked after the draft if memory serves me is how it became known that neither Baker or Rosen appeared to be in the Bills first round draft plans.  

The Bills leak had Rosen ranked as their number 4 QB. You could argue based on their picture, they didn’t plan on trading up to #5 to draft Rosen but to suggest they wouldn’t have picked him in the first is a stretch. 

[Albany,n.y.]

4 minutes ago, Albany,n.y. said:

Here's the order translated.  Allen, Darnold, Mayfield, Rosen, Rudolph & Lauletta.  The proposed trade with Denver would have been only for one of the top 3.  

Edited February 24, 2020 by Albany,n.y.

[Warcodered]

8 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Was Rosen "thrown in there" more than Allen though?  I mean Allen got thrown in middle of the first game after NP crapped the bed.  And this was after Allen spent the whole offseason in a 3 way QB competition, so he got a lot less reps in before he had to step on the field.  Rosen should have been significantly more prepared than Allen to step on the field as he got more reps and more time before he stepped on the field.  Not to mention Rosen was dubbed "The most pro ready" while Allen was dubbed the most "raw" QB in the upper part of the draft.  

 

Rosen had slightly better weapons overall to work with in AZ with the same OL issues and a veteran like Bradford around him during camp and season.  Allen had Nathan Peterman around him and AJM who had done nothing himself.  Allen had worse receivers and a similar bad OL while also playing in the more complicated offense.  

 

Sorry, I mean no disrespect, but this all feels like excuses for Rosen.

 

The reality is Allen earned the trust and belief of his teammates and staff despite all the mistakes and ups and downs...Rosen failed to do that on 2 teams in 2 years.  Its not that Allen was given a better plan, its that Allen earned the confidence of his organization to stick with him and the plan where AZ didn't feel he was worth keeping despite trading up for him and using the 10th pick in the draft on him.  Then, Miami sends a valuable 2nd round pick to obtain him and in a season where they have nothing to play for other than to evaluate the roster, and they also quickly gave up on him and turned to a journeyman in the last years of his career.  

 

I think its time for people to stop making excuses for Rosen and just realize that 2 QB needy teams with significant draft equity invested into him felt he isn't worth the effort. 

I mean I think people pretty much agreed they both got thrown into ***** situations. If Allen had an advantage it was being used to it coming from Wyoming and his attributes being a more mobile gave him some more wiggle room compared to Rosen who needed a secure pocket more than Allen.

[C.Biscuit97]

18 minutes ago, frostbitmic said:

If we had taken Rosen we'd be in the running for Burrows or Tua this year.

You are insanely overvaluing Allen then.  This is the problem with evaluating qbs.  Very few young qbs can go into a situation and just elevate the team by themselves.  We have had a top 3 defense both years Allen has been here.  A lot of qbs would have been solid here.  
 

Rosen may suck but it’s insane to say so after the situations he was forced in.  Allen would look a lot different if he got drafted by Arizona.  Our situation isn’t perfect but we have a team carried by a really good defense where a qb doesn’t have to score a lot of points to win games.  It’s a good situation for a young qb to grow in.

1 hour ago, BuffaloBills1998 said:

Rudolph looks like crap lol

I think he did get a fair shot I Miami minus the whole team being crap around him. But then again Fitz was able to do more with less than Rosen did

He got a fair shot in Miami??? They traded away their starting LT, had the worst groups of skills players, and a bunch of starting defensive players. It was an awful situation.

 

and I know people like to sell him short but Fitz, a 10 year veteran qb, is like the 20th best qb in the nfl.  Fitz is better than the majority of 1st and 2nd year qbs. 

[BuffaloBills1998]

5 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

You are insanely overvaluing Allen then.  This is the problem with evaluating qbs.  Very few young qbs can go into a situation and just elevate the team by themselves.  We have had a top 3 defense both years Allen has been here.  A lot of qbs would have been solid here.  
 

Rosen may suck but it’s insane to say so after the situations he was forced in.  Allen would look a lot different if he got drafted by Arizona.  Our situation isn’t perfect but we have a team carried by a really good defense where a qb doesn’t have to score a lot of points to win games.  It’s a good situation for a young qb to grow in.

He got a fair shot in Miami??? They traded away their starting LT, had the worst groups of skills players, and a bunch of starting defensive players. It was an awful situation.

 

and I know people like to sell him short but Fitz, a 10 year veteran qb, is like the 20th best qb in the nfl.  Fitz is better than the majority of 1st and 2nd year qbs. 

But He couldn’t even beat out Fitz in competition and that was before they traded their LT and Stills. Also the fact that the team rallied around fitz more and begged the staff to bench Rosen and put back fitz says a lot as well. That’s two teams that’s given up high draft picks for this guy and both have given up on him. There has to be a reason 

Edited February 24, 2020 by BuffaloBills1998

[BringBackOrton]

6 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

You are insanely overvaluing Allen then.  This is the problem with evaluating qbs.  Very few young qbs can go into a situation and just elevate the team by themselves.  We have had a top 3 defense both years Allen has been here.  A lot of qbs would have been solid here.  
 

Rosen may suck but it’s insane to say so after the situations he was forced in.  Allen would look a lot different if he got drafted by Arizona.  Our situation isn’t perfect but we have a team carried by a really good defense where a qb doesn’t have to score a lot of points to win games.  It’s a good situation for a young qb to grow in.

He got a fair shot in Miami??? They traded away their starting LT, had the worst groups of skills players, and a bunch of starting defensive players. It was an awful situation.

 

and I know people like to sell him short but Fitz, a 10 year veteran qb, is like the 20th best qb in the nfl.  Fitz is better than the majority of 1st and 2nd year qbs. 

I actually don’t agree on the Allen/Rosen wins. The defense kept us in a lot of games, no doubt, and are a huge reason we won a lot of games. But Allen made a lot of clutch plays to seal wins not a lot of QBs make. It’s how a guy like Tim Tebow can end up winning more than a Kyle Orton, even though Orton was the clearly superior QB.

[C.Biscuit97]

3 minutes ago, BuffaloBills1998 said:

But He couldn’t even beat out Fitz in competition and that was before they traded their LT and Stills. Also the fact that the team rallied around fitz more and begged the staff to bench Rosen and put back fitz says a lot as well. That’s two teams that’s given up high draft picks for this guy and both have given up on him. There has to be a reason 

I hate to bring it to people here but Fitz would be Allen out in a fair open competition.  Fitz is a very solid nfl qb. 

Just now, BringBackOrton said:

I actually don’t agree on the Allen/Rosen wins. The defense kept us in a lot of games, no doubt, and are a huge reason we won a lot of games. But Allen made a lot of clutch plays to seal wins not a lot of QBs make. It’s how a guy like Tim Tebow can end up winning more than a Kyle Orton, even though Orton was the clearly superior QB.

But Allen is able to make clutch plays because the defense lets the offense.  
 

and Allen very well just be better than Rosen.  I just don’t think it’s fair to evaluate Rosen because of the dog ? situations.  It’s crazy but Buffalo looks like a fairly decent situation for a qb finally. 

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

You are insanely overvaluing Allen then.  This is the problem with evaluating qbs.  Very few young qbs can go into a situation and just elevate the team by themselves.  We have had a top 3 defense both years Allen has been here.  A lot of qbs would have been solid here.  
 

Rosen may suck but it’s insane to say so after the situations he was forced in.  Allen would look a lot different if he got drafted by Arizona.  Our situation isn’t perfect but we have a team carried by a really good defense where a qb doesn’t have to score a lot of points to win games.  It’s a good situation for a young qb to grow in.

What, exactly, does the defense have to do with a quarterback's 'situation to grow in'? Can you explain that one for me in detail?

[BringBackOrton]

2 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

I hate to bring it to people here but Fitz would be Allen out in a fair open competition.  Fitz is a very solid nfl qb. 

But Allen is able to make clutch plays because the defense lets the offense.  
 

and Allen very well just be better than Rosen.  I just don’t think it’s fair to evaluate Rosen because of the dog ? situations.  It’s crazy but Buffalo looks like a fairly decent situation for a qb finally. 

Oh no doubt, Allen for sure would look worse on the Phins. Lots of QBs would. Just not sure lots of young QBs win 10 games on the Bills. Does Kyler Murray go at least .500? I think so. Does Darnold? I think so. 

[Rock'em Sock'em]

28 minutes ago, Albany,n.y. said:

Allen, Darnold, Mayfield, Rosen, Rudolph & Lauletta.

 

I think the Bills brass got this mostly right.  Not having Lamar Jackson on the board at all due to his play style seems odd.  But from their point of view, they probably felt good about Daboll's offense.

[BringBackOrton]

1 minute ago, GoBills808 said:

What, exactly, does the defense have to do with a quarterback's 'situation to grow in'? Can you explain that one for me in detail?

Not as much pressure to win the game on their own to start. It’s a lot easier to settle down and run your offense and take what the D gives you when your D isn’t allowing 30 ppg.

 

Down 14 in the 4th Q and down 4 in the 4th Q are much different animals.

[GoBills808]

Just now, BringBackOrton said:

Not as much pressure to win the game on their own to start. It’s a lot easier to settle down and run your offense and take what the D gives you when your D isn’t allowing 30 ppg.

 

Down 14 in the 4th Q and down 4 in the 4th Q are much different animals.

Exactly. Having a top defense will often depress a QB's statistics. I find the 'defense is good' argument funny coming from a poster who routinely uses statistics to make the case against Allen.

[Virgil]

41 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Sorry, I mean no disrespect, but this all feels like excuses for Rosen.

 

 

YOU DARE DISRESPECT ME BY DISAGREEING WITH ME!?

 

Consider yourself banned from my treehouse

[C.Biscuit97]

3 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

What, exactly, does the defense have to do with a quarterback's 'situation to grow in'? Can you explain that one for me in detail?

Let me break this down slowly for you:  would rather play with the #2 defense that gives up 16 point/ game?  Or would you want to play with Miami’s last ranked defense which gave up 31 points/ game?  The less points your team allows, the easier it is to win.

 

for instance, if Mahomes didn’t play with a defense That gave up 26/ points a game in 2018, he has 2 rings.  He “lost” a game where his offense scored 51 points!  Allen has rarely had to win a game where the defense gives up 20 points.