The Airplane Seat Incident.

[GaryPinC]

5 hours ago, sherpa said:

 

I'm shortsighted?

 

Do you think, for a second, that this hasn't been tried and the market has voted?

Everyday, all the time.

 

By the way, as I noted in my reply to you initially, you may not be familiar with this issue.

In the first case, you mentioned value regarding a number of options, and I mentioned that you may not be aware of the cost of these things.

 

In your most recent, you state something regarding how you might pay more for legroom on trips of lengthier duration, but not on shorter ones.

Did you think about this before you made that claim?

Once an airplane is configured, and they are as "fleets," not individually, which would be insanely idiotic and expensive, they are in the system.

Once in the system, they operate on all routes.

 

The people who decide these things do so on market results, and they are not stupid.

 

  https://www.united.com/ual/en/us/fly/travel/inflight/cabin/economy.html

 

Hey, look there.  United Economy Plus.  6 inches more legroom in economy.  Those insane idiots!  It's so impossible!  And I can tell you from personal experience they've been sold out quickly on longer flights.

 

But you keep on pretending you're some kind of authority.

[sherpa]

I'm not pretending anything,  just relating information on a subject that gets scores of attention and is looked at very closely tens of thousands a time per day as hundreds of thousands of passengers make fare decisions.

 

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/airchive/2015/01/14/actually-airlines-are-giving-customers-exactly-what-they-want/#3dbd3c2d29bb

 

From Forbes:   

 

" And airline products are determined almost entirely by customer preferences. US airline customers (and really passengers all over the world) have shown time and time again that they care about one factor above all else: price.

And not just price but base fares (frequently ignoring out of pocket travel costs and even taxes). Non-business travelers, in aggregate, will choose a seat offered at a low base fare, almost every time.

"Leisure travelers are an absolute majority of passengers for US airlines, even at full service carriers like United and Delta. And these passengers, voting with their wallets. Leisure travelers are an absolute majority of passengers for US airlines, even at full service carriers like United and Delta. And these passengers, voting with their wallets, have demonstrated that they care a lot more about low base fares than any of the service elements that Mr. Wu bemoans. Now clearly this doesn’t apply to every airline passenger, there are business travelers who choose flights based on schedules, status, or service, and even leisure passengers willing to pay a bit more for a more comfortable experience. But for about 60% of customers at US majors (and about 80% overall), price is king."

 

"Journal of Air Transport Management" had a lengthy article about it as well, which can be read as PDF.

 

[plenzmd1]

19 hours ago, GaryPinC said:

 

 

.  Spirit Airlines is the perfect example of this.  They're all about the bait and switch.  Lowest ticket prices until you actually go through their reservation nickel-and-diming process then it costs as much or more than the major carriers, and they bet you're too lazy to double check or restart the reservation process somewhere else.  And you can brag to people the original "bargain" price.

 

 

 

I have not found this to be the case the two times i have used a budget airline. 

 

On Spirit, purchased " the Big Front Seat" for less then economy on traditional carriers for a 2 1/2 flight...well worth it. Those are just about the same as any domestic first class.

Flew Alligient from Richmond  to Nashville for the Bills game last fall. Not only was it the only direct, but they clearly stated up front how much you would pay for everything..seat selection , bags etc. I opted to lock in  for a an exit row aisle with a carry on, and felt it was still much cheaper than a traditional carrier would have charged for a similar seat.

 

BTW, I am one who thinks fees are perfectly a okay...you want a better seat at a concert? you pay for it. You want someone to deliver your TV instead of taking it home? You pay for , just like them delivering luggage to you. Give me the option to pay for the things that are important to me.

[row_33]

if i never get on a plane again that's fine with me

 

paid to do so for work is fine, but never voluntarily again

 

i don't mind flying, it's the delay and hassle for hours and hours that gets to me, it is never worth it unless the billable hours are clicking away

 

[shrader]

2 hours ago, plenzmd1 said:

I have not found this to be the case the two times i have used a budget airline. 

 

On Spirit, purchased " the Big Front Seat" for less then economy on traditional carriers for a 2 1/2 flight...well worth it. Those are just about the same as any domestic first class.

Flew Alligient from Richmond  to Nashville for the Bills game last fall. Not only was it the only direct, but they clearly stated up front how much you would pay for everything..seat selection , bags etc. I opted to lock in  for a an exit row aisle with a carry on, and felt it was still much cheaper than a traditional carrier would have charged for a similar seat.

 

BTW, I am one who thinks fees are perfectly a okay...you want a better seat at a concert? you pay for it. You want someone to deliver your TV instead of taking it home? You pay for , just like them delivering luggage to you. Give me the option to pay for the things that are important to me.

 

I don't feel like there are enough available options to warrant the fees.  The extra leg room seats are the biggest scam of all.  Once no one pays for them, and it seems like they never do, they just give those things away to those without an assigned seat.  That's my scam anytime I'm on delta now.  Don't check into the flight ahead of time, get a boarding pass that says "seat assigned at gate", then enjoy the extra leg room without paying for it.  That has worked for me every single time.

[plenzmd1]

13 minutes ago, shrader said:

 

I don't feel like there are enough available options to warrant the fees.  The extra leg room seats are the biggest scam of all.  Once no one pays for them, and it seems like they never do, they just give those things away to those without an assigned seat.  That's my scam anytime I'm on delta now.  Don't check into the flight ahead of time, get a boarding pass that says "seat assigned at gate", then enjoy the extra leg room without paying for it.  That has worked for me every single time.

That's very smart!

 

I don't fly enough anymore to have status, so i have  become a hawk at waiting for the door to close and then jumping to an exit row if one was available. Been told the last couple times had to move back to original seat as those are premium seats and need to pay for them!?

[billsfanmiami(oh)]

I flew Frontier on the way out to Denver last week. Overall it was a good experience. Paid an extra $75 per seat for a checked bag, carryon, and the upfront “extra room” rows. That $75 also made the ticket fully refundable which was nice piece of mind when traveling with a 3 year old. I still like to fly Southwest whenever it makes sense because they’ve always been reliable, I usually take advantage of the free checked bags, and the great flexibility they have when haven’t to cancel / change. I’d certainly give Frontier another whirl if necessary though. Allegiant still scares me with the number of firsthand stories I’ve heard about cancelled / delayed flights. (Not to mention the maintenance)  

[Seasons1992]

4 minutes ago, billsfanmiami(oh) said:

I flew Frontier on the way out to Denver last week. Overall it was a good experience. Paid an extra $75 per seat for a checked bag, carryon, and the upfront “extra room” rows. That $75 also made the ticket fully refundable which was nice piece of mind when traveling with a 3 year old. I still like to fly Southwest whenever it makes sense because they’ve always been reliable, I usually take advantage of the free checked bags, and the great flexibility they have when haven’t to cancel / change. I’d certainly give Frontier another whirl if necessary though. Allegiant still scares me with the number of firsthand stories I’ve heard about cancelled / delayed flights. (Not to mention the maintenance)  

 

I do enjoy Frontier, but it stinks here in Cincinnati when a flight of theirs that eventually is scheduled to land here gets delayed. They only have one or two gates and ZERO backup planes, so when a morning flight gets delayed somewhere, it eventually gets delayed here. 

 

And I will take Greyhound before I will ever set foot on an Allegiant plane. 

[row_33]

so even if you don't find a scheme to rip off the airline, do you still tell yourself you won as you become cattle on a journey that will require all your patience and tolerance?

 

[GaryPinC]

11 hours ago, sherpa said:

I'm not pretending anything,  just relating information on a subject that gets scores of attention and is looked at very closely tens of thousands a time per day as hundreds of thousands of passengers make fare decisions.

 

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/airchive/2015/01/14/actually-airlines-are-giving-customers-exactly-what-they-want/#3dbd3c2d29bb

 

From Forbes:   

 

" And airline products are determined almost entirely by customer preferences. US airline customers (and really passengers all over the world) have shown time and time again that they care about one factor above all else: price.

And not just price but base fares (frequently ignoring out of pocket travel costs and even taxes). Non-business travelers, in aggregate, will choose a seat offered at a low base fare, almost every time.

"Leisure travelers are an absolute majority of passengers for US airlines, even at full service carriers like United and Delta. And these passengers, voting with their wallets. Leisure travelers are an absolute majority of passengers for US airlines, even at full service carriers like United and Delta. And these passengers, voting with their wallets, have demonstrated that they care a lot more about low base fares than any of the service elements that Mr. Wu bemoans. Now clearly this doesn’t apply to every airline passenger, there are business travelers who choose flights based on schedules, status, or service, and even leisure passengers willing to pay a bit more for a more comfortable experience. But for about 60% of customers at US majors (and about 80% overall), price is king."

 

"Journal of Air Transport Management" had a lengthy article about it as well, which can be read as PDF.

 

Hey, I understand what you're saying.  And obviously plenty of people stare at the numbers and draw the same generalities.

Flying is expensive, so many people are obsessed with keeping the cost as low as possible so it's certainly a difficult customer base and good market research with creativity are required.

But it's really about creating value for both the company and customer.  United has a row or two of economy plus because enough of its target customers will pay extra for that option allowing them to make a little money at it.  They may not sell them all out each flight, be able to do an entire plane with that kind of seating (as was attempted in the past), but they've offered it since about 2017 so they must turn some kind of profit from it.

 

But from the Forbes article:  For example, in 2008 US Airways decided to follow in the footsteps of Spirit Airlines and charge for drinks onboard instead of offering them for free. Customer reaction, in the form of booking away from US Airways was swift, and they dropped the policy within seven months. Conversely, American launched its “More Room Throughout Coach” concept in 2000, taking seats out of its airplane (improving comfort) to dry and draw premium yields. The initiative fell apart by 2004 in the face of heavy competition from low cost carriers (LCCs). At every turn, whether by shifting to an a-la-carte pricing model, or investing resources into improving reliability and on-time performance, US airlines have grown adept at giving customers exactly what they’ll pay for.  

 

You can argue customers leaving Us Air over drink charging was all about money but for me it was about diminishing the value of what the ticket offered.  And unless all the major airlines make the same change people get pissed off and leave.

3 hours ago, shrader said:

 

I don't feel like there are enough available options to warrant the fees.  The extra leg room seats are the biggest scam of all.  Once no one pays for them, and it seems like they never do, they just give those things away to those without an assigned seat.  That's my scam anytime I'm on delta now.  Don't check into the flight ahead of time, get a boarding pass that says "seat assigned at gate", then enjoy the extra leg room without paying for it.  That has worked for me every single time.

Glad it works for you, I did this one time about 15 years ago and we almost got bumped off the flight as it was overbooked and we didn't have assigned seats.  

[shrader]

On 2/21/2020 at 3:42 PM, GaryPinC said:

 

Glad it works for you, I did this one time about 15 years ago and we almost got bumped off the flight as it was overbooked and we didn't have assigned seats.  

Yeah, it’s definitely more of a recent thing, maybe in the last 2-3 years. It’s only been a delta thing though. I book the best price I can find so I’m bouncing around from airline to airline. 

[Bakin]

I’m a big guy 6’2” 270lbs. And I travel a lot. The only real solution to not having to deal with people on planes is to fly business. 
 

If you have to fly Economy - ***** em. Recline away.

It’s your right. It’s your chair.

If the guy in front of me reclines, that’s an automatic recline for me. I never feel so entitled as to tell a person what to do with their chair. I’ll give them the big exhale and that’s It. 

 

 

[row_33]

13 hours ago, Bakin said:

I’m a big guy 6’2” 270lbs. And I travel a lot. The only real solution to not having to deal with people on planes is to fly business. 
 

If you have to fly Economy - ***** em. Recline away.

It’s your right. It’s your chair.

If the guy in front of me reclines, that’s an automatic recline for me. I never feel so entitled as to tell a person what to do with their chair. I’ll give them the big exhale and that’s It. 

 

 

 

i'm 6'6" and tilt 3 spins sometimes, i have never had a major hassle, i don't demand a halo or space bubble of 1 foot or i feel impinged upon

 

riding the subway daily in Toronto make help get over things that don't matter

 

 

[Irv]

The problem with flying starts way before take off. 

 

1. You need to arrive at the airport 2 hours in advance.  Two hours!  WTF?  TSA can't be more efficient than that?  Hire more agents.  If you want to get the pre-check you hand over a $100.  How is that fair?  If you have $100 you can skip the line but if you're on food stamps you can't? 
2. You take off your shoes and walk across a bunion, toe jam, and athlete's feet infested, filthy floor.
3. You get stripped searched and x-rayed.
4. You get the luxury of paying $7 for a coke and $30 for a cold cheeseburger at McDonalds.   
5.  You then sit around for an hour waiting for your flight to be delayed/cancelled with no information exchange.
6. If you want to talk to a gate agent, you better not rely on English as your primary language.
7. Then you board.  Some jackwagon immediately puts is stuff over your seat. 
8. You sit down in a seat that a toddler would have trouble fitting in.
9. The lady sitting next to you has chronic halitosis, dandruff, and a disturbing skin condition. 
10. Then, selfish douche boy in front of you puts his seat back. 

Frankly, I'm surprised people don't go bug F more often? 

 

     

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

28 minutes ago, Irv said:

The problem with flying starts way before take off. 

 

1. You need to arrive at the airport 2 hours in advance.  Two hours!  WTF?  TSA can't be more efficient than that?  Hire more agents.  If you want to get the pre-check you hand over a $100.  How is that fair?  If you have $100 you can skip the line but if you're on food stamps you can't? 
2. You take off your shoes and walk across a bunion, toe jam, and athlete's feet infested, filthy floor.
3. You get stripped searched and x-rayed.
4. You get the luxury of paying $7 for a coke and $30 for a cold cheeseburger at McDonalds.   
5.  You then sit around for an hour waiting for your flight to be delayed/cancelled with no information exchange.
6. If you want to talk to a gate agent, you better not rely on English as your primary language.
7. Then you board.  Some jackwagon immediately puts is stuff over your seat. 
8. You sit down in a seat that a toddler would have trouble fitting in.
9. The lady sitting next to you has chronic halitosis, dandruff, and a disturbing skin condition. 
10. Then, selfish douche boy in front of you puts his seat back. 

Frankly, I'm surprised people don't go bug F more often? 

 

     

Irv Crankstein.

[The Real Buffalo Joe]

Maybe because I'm poor, but I've never been on a plane that lets you recline a significant amount. Maybe six inches back at the most.

[Irv]

40 minutes ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

Irv Crankstein.

 

I spell it with a "y".  Irv Crankystein.  

[Bad Things]

I wish airlines would either just get rid of reclining seats or at least reduce the amount they can be reclined.

Even on 14+ hour long-haul flights, I do NOT recline my seat, simply because I don't want to be a dick to the person behind me.

[Bakin]

On 2/21/2020 at 12:24 PM, shrader said:

 

I don't feel like there are enough available options to warrant the fees.  The extra leg room seats are the biggest scam of all.  Once no one pays for them, and it seems like they never do, they just give those things away to those without an assigned seat.  That's my scam anytime I'm on delta now.  Don't check into the flight ahead of time, get a boarding pass that says "seat assigned at gate", then enjoy the extra leg room without paying for it.  That has worked for me every single time.

That’s fine and dandy if the flight is half full. 
If not then you got boned when you could be more comfortable’ for $26 for the next 3-4 hours. It’s worth it. 

[eball]

On 2/18/2020 at 4:54 PM, Nextmanup said:

My position is that anyone who reclines their seat *at all* let alone all the way on an airplane ride is a total douche.  

 

We all know how much it sucks to have that seat go back in front of us, we are all in the same boat stuffed in there like sardines to begin with, and then to just say "F YOU!" and go full recline is, as I wrote, a total douche move.

 

 

Based upon this post, I’m guessing you find 99.9% of the people you come into contact with “total douches.”

 

What a bizarre take.