Would you give our 2020 1st rd pick to the Lions for Kenny Golliday?

[Pokebball]

6 hours ago, Mojo44 said:

Understand. My response was to a post saying that it was a FACT that the bills were historically bad at drafting wide receivers. My response noted that in terms of the current administration you can’t say that at this point. They had one fail. Not a large enough sample size. It’s a supposition at this point.

 

And, if I understand what you are asking, and no I don’t count it at all. There’s only have to do with wide receivers that they drafted. It has nothing to do with wide receivers that they didn’t draft whether they passed on them or not. I call that the “Mahomes Whine Position”. 
 

So, again, all I am saying is that it is yet to be determined how good the current administration is at drafting wide receivers.So, again, all I am saying is that it is yet to be determined how good the current administration is at drafting wide receivers.

I agree.  There were higher priorities than WR.  Much higher priorities.

[tcampbell104]

if they could sign him to a long term contract with the trade ,i would be good with it.

[Thurman#1]

11 hours ago, soflabillsfan1 said:

When Scott asked Elijah who he was concerned about paying he said: "Edmunds, Milano, Dawkins, Josh, Tre, Poyer, etc. are all guys that are going to need to get paid soon."  Edmund and Josh are getting paid soon?  No, they're not.  Total exaggeration.  Also, the Bills control Tre for another 2 years at minimum. The Bills can pay Dion, Milano, Shaq and give Poyer a bump this offseason and have plenty of money to sign a big FA and add smaller cumulative pieces. Again, the Bills have 1 player on the entire roster with a 10 million dollar cap hit.  Most perennially good teams have 6-7 and the Chiefs have 8.  This miser way of spending is like a guy sitting in bonds for the last 10 years.  Now is the time to go get a  final big piece or two.

 

 

 

First, whatever post you are talking about is not what I replied to.

 

Second, "soon" has plenty of leeway. It's absolutely not a total exaggeration that they could be getting paid soon. Allen and Edmund could get paid as soon as next off-season. I very much doubt that Allen in particular will, but "soon" is a very reasonable word under the circumstances.

 

Yeah, the Bills control Tre for another two years. That does not in any sense rule out giving him a new contract as soon as before or during this season. Depending on the details of the contract it could easily make total sense for both parties. And extending guys who are key contributors in a year when you have a lot of money makes total sense.

 

As for going to get a final big piece or two ... well, that's fine if that's the way you would spend money. I myself am very happy that McDermott and Beane have made it very clear that it's not how they do things. They build their core through the draft and fill in with low- and medium-priced FAs and they prioritize bringing back their own guys, and they've said it so many times now I wonder how people still fight to ignore their words.

[Thurman#1]

13 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

These are ALL the ones he has  drafted: Austin Proehl, Ray-Ray Mcloud, Zay Jones.  Throw in UDFA's Easley and Foster if you want.  No difference.

 

Last year, when the Bills were on the clock for their second round pick, AJ Brown, Mecole Hardman and DK Metcalf were all there for the taking.  Beane ran to the podium to select Cody Ford...a guy who might be moved to another spot on the line to see if that's where he might be better used.

 

So, combining the bums they HAVE drafted and those 3 WRs they passed on in the same round of the same draft (and got Ford instead!)---how else can anyone conclude other than that they are bad at drafting WRs?

 

 

 

Beane didn't draft Zay. Beane was still hard at work in Carolina.

 

So, he's drafted Austin Proehl and Ray-Ray McCloud. And if drafting a 6th and a 7th and ending up with a practice squad guy two years later is bad drafting there isn't a front office in the league that isn't bad.

 

How could you conclude anything other than that he's bad? Well, you could use sense. If you do that, it's impossible to make any other conclusion.

 

Drafting an OL says absolutely nothing about how good you are at drafting WRs, and particularly not when that OL still has a very good chance of turning out to be a very nice pick. Again, if you start grading FOs by who they DIDN'T draft, there won't be a single one in the league who looks good, not one. You judge GMs by who they drafted.

 

9 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

He didn't draft Jones.

 

 

Um, you're the one who just said he should be judged on drafting Jones among others. See above in red.

 

9 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

Your argument is "he CAN'T be bad at drafting WRs....because he doesn't draft any!".  That's not a very convincing argument.  That's akin to saying of a firefighter "he can't be bad at fighting fires, because he never responds to one!". 

 

 

 

That is a horrible analogy, and not just in one way. First, it's nothing like a firefighter who doesn't respond to fires. Beane responded, he just didn't respond to the ones you'd have preferred. A better analogy would be trying to argue that a guy is terrible at asking out blondes because so far he's only asked out and dated women with brown, black and red hair, and with great results.

 

That's the first way your analogy utterly fails, but the second is more obvious and worse. Saying, "your argument is "he CAN'T be bad at drafting WRs ... because he doesn't draft any!" is perhaps the worst paraphrase of a position I've ever encountered. He never said anything like, "He CAN'T be bad ..." It's you trying to make a (dumb) conclusion from no evidence, not him. He's trying to say "You can't prove that he's bad at drafting WRs because he's never drafted any," and you saying, "He must be bad at it because he's never done it." An utter fail.

 

You don't know how good someone is at drafting a high-round WR till he drafts one at the very least.

 

Edited February 14, 2020 by Thurman#1

[Thurman#1]

15 hours ago, ScottLaw said:

Read the post above that one. He specifically says Allen.... and I expect guys like Spain, Phillips and Lawson to not be on the team next year so they'll already not be resigning their own.

 

Anyway, they have the ability to sign some big FAs and retain their own guys they value. They don't need an overly conservative mindset like you've been cheerleading for a while now. 

 

 

Oh, so you're making completely unwarranted assumptions and proceeding as if they're facts? Got it, but why would you appear so satisfied with making such an obvious logical error, not to mention the error of leaving out all the other people I mentioned that they could easily be signing this year, not to mention after that.

 

You can argue that they don't "need" an "overly" conservative mindset if you want. But it's beside the point. They don't give a ***** what you think about their mindset, which by the way isn't "overly" anything, though it certainly is conservative. But they've made clear what their beliefs are and how they operate. I'm pretty sure you're not going to change their mind. Do you think that perhaps if you just argue enough the light will suddenly go on for them and they'll start spending like sailors on leave?

 

You are the one cheerleading wild spending. They, the ones at whom the buck stops, have said again and again that they don't work that way. You seem to be more of a fan of wild spending than of the Bills. If you're so in love with that kind of approach, why don't you take the offseason and switch allegiances to the Redskins or the Cowboys. There are a few others who will doubtless do things that way. Follow them for at least the offseason and make yourself happy. Come back after Beane has done what he has again and again said he will do.

 

Oh, and having now gone back and reading it, SoFla was still mischaracterizing. He mentioned only Allen and Edmunds when Elijah mentioned a bunch of guys and used the word "etc." besides. 

 

Edited February 14, 2020 by Thurman#1

[Thurman#1]

7 hours ago, ScottLaw said:

They’ll bring back their own guys that they prioritize.... that doesn’t mean everyone is coming back.... you are going to see at least 2 of their 3 big FAs(Spain, Lawson, Phillips) go elsewhere, IMO.

 

And I think you’ll be surprised. I expect a somewhat noisy FA signing/trade for a pass rushing DE or WR or both. 

 

 

Did I ever say everyone is coming back?

 

IMO they will try hard to get two of the three to come back, but you could easily be right about them ending up with one of the three. But you seem also to be forgetting about Dawkins, Tre', Milano, Poyer, etc., all or several of whom could easily be extended this year.

 

And yeah, expecting a "somewhat noisy FA signing/trade" ... what you're doing there is guessing, but it's a reasonable guess. I guess that myself. A Jordan Howard, maybe, a Vic Beasley, a Hunter Henry, guys along those lines who don't get re-signed. The teams Beane and McDermott model - teams built for consistent success over a long period - generally operate with the same principles Beane is talking about, building the core through the draft, re-signing their own as a priority, filling in with low- to mid-priced FAs. And many of the teams bring in a premium FA once in a blue moon, maybe once every five years or so. This could be the year Beane does something like that.

 

Even if they don't, though, it would be reasonable to expect this year's Cole Beasley, John Brown and Mitch Morse. And there weren't only those three last year when they had nearly as much money as they do now. Those guys improved the team significantly and did it without breaking the bank. Throw in development of the group already here, a new draft class and hopefully some improvement by Josh Allen and they'll have a chance to be pretty damn good.

 

Expecting them to wade into FA like Pacman Jones at a strip club, though, will almost surely lead to disappointment.

Edited February 14, 2020 by Thurman#1

[AlCowlingsTaxiService]

12 hours ago, BillsCuse said:

Good one, did that make you feel tough

Oh don’t you worry ... I don’t require chat room comebacks to make me feel tough, but perhaps you do. 

[Mr. WEO]

13 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Beane didn't draft Zay. Beane was still hard at work in Carolina.

 

So, he's drafted Austin Proehl and Ray-Ray McCloud. And if drafting a 6th and a 7th and ending up with a practice squad guy two years later is bad drafting there isn't a front office in the league that isn't bad.

 

How could you conclude anything other than that he's bad? Well, you could use sense. If you do that, it's impossible to make any other conclusion.

 

Drafting an OL says absolutely nothing about how good you are at drafting WRs, and particularly not when that OL still has a very good chance of turning out to be a very nice pick. Again, if you start grading FOs by who they DIDN'T draft, there won't be a single one in the league who looks good, not one. You judge GMs by who they drafted.

 

 

 

Um, you're the one who just said he should be judged on drafting Jones among others. See above in red.

 

 

 

That is a horrible analogy, and not just in one way. First, it's nothing like a firefighter who doesn't respond to fires. Beane responded, he just didn't respond to the ones you'd have preferred. A better analogy would be trying to argue that a guy is terrible at asking out blondes because so far he's only asked out and dated women with brown, black and red hair, and with great results.

 

That's the first way your analogy utterly fails, but the second is more obvious and worse. Saying, "your argument is "he CAN'T be bad at drafting WRs ... because he doesn't draft any!" is perhaps the worst paraphrase of a position I've ever encountered. He never said anything like, "He CAN'T be bad ..." It's you trying to make a (dumb) conclusion from no evidence, not him. He's trying to say "You can't prove that he's bad at drafting WRs because he's never drafted any," and you saying, "He must be bad at it because he's never done it." An utter fail.

 

You don't know how good someone is at drafting a high-round WR till he drafts one at the very least.

 

I acknowledged my Zay Jones error before that second post.  You saw that.

 

Firefighters are supposed to fight fires.  GMs are supposed to recognize and select for positions of need.  One who doesn’t do so isn’t good at doing so.  It’s really that simple.
 

Beane certainly knew of those 4 WRs available in the 2nd.  He felt they were not good enough to pick instead of Ford.  That was bad. 
 

Some  gentlemen prefer brunettes.   Beane must not prefer good WRs, since he won’t draft any?  That’s an interesting analogy. ...

[T master]

Seeing as this years draft is very deep at the WR position i would say no because unless its a Randy Moss/Kalil Mack type player a once in a life time talent a first round pick is very useful in bringing in talent that can help a team long team for a lot less .

 

This being his last year of his rookie contract he is going to cost a lott o hang on to past this coming year if he continues to do what he has & the Bills already have a lot of talent on the team that will be expecting big contracts sooner rather than later & if they invest in him they may have to let go of those already invested in as far as draft picks .

 

If Beane & company do what they have since he was brought in i believe they can find a WR in the draft that can be as good for the Bills for a lessor price for a longer time ! 

[GreggTX]

This is purported to be the best draft in a long while for WR'. He has 1 year left on his current deal. Rookies are much cheaper.

 

Conversely, rookies are unproven. Still, giving up a 1st doesn't make sense in this situation.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

22 hours ago, apuszczalowski said:

What about ones that were already in the league that they gave up a draft pick for? Do they count?

 

I would say "yes".

 

Main reason I still have strong concerns about the Bills talent evaluation abilities on offense.

Jordan Matthews

Kelvin Benjamin

Corey Coleman

 

Reasons I still have hope:

John Brown

Cole Beasley

Dawson Knox

Tommy Sweeney

 

 

10 minutes ago, GreggTX said:

This is purported to be the best draft in a long while for WR'. He has 1 year left on his current deal. Rookies are much cheaper.

 

Conversely, rookies are unproven. Still, giving up a 1st doesn't make sense in this situation.

 

TBH, the Bills really need to do both.  They need to bring in a quality receiver (doesn't have to be WR - could be TE)

And, they need to draft at least one.

 

Brown and Beasley are Truth but they're not spring chickens.

[GoBills808]

Just now, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I would say "yes".

 

Main reason I still have strong concerns about the Bills talent evaluation abilities on offense.

Jordan Matthews

Kelvin Benjamin

Corey Coleman

 

Reasons I still have hope:

John Brown

Cole Beasley

Dawson Knox

Tommy Sweeney

 

 

Plus Spain, Feliciano, Singletary, Allen (over Rosen)...every team misses some pickups. I firmly believe w a full season under their belts the offense is going to function a lot more smoothly, especially along the line. You have to remember that outside Dawkins and Allen there were 9 new starters on that side of the ball...it was a complete overhaul. Cohesion takes some time

[Aussie Joe]

38 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

Beane certainly knew of those 4 WRs available in the 2nd.  He felt they were not good enough to pick instead of Ford.  That was bad. 

 

 

Ford was pretty much considered a first round talent by the majority of the so called draft experts..literally all the guys on nfl:com had him going between 17 to 30 in their final mocks..I don’t recall a lot of criticism at the time after the pick here or in the media..

 

Yes, after 1 year it looks like he should have picked someone else at that spot and the likes of the WR’s you mention fit the bill..

 

I still think Ford has the potential to live up to where he was picked though, and if he goes on to be a starter over the rest of his rookie deal and hopefully signs a second contract, it won’t turn out to be “bad”..

[Mr. WEO]

28 minutes ago, Aussie Joe said:

Ford was pretty much considered a first round talent by the majority of the so called draft experts..literally all the guys on nfl:com had him going between 17 to 30 in their final mocks..I don’t recall a lot of criticism at the time after the pick here or in the media..

 

Yes, after 1 year it looks like he should have picked someone else at that spot and the likes of the WR’s you mention fit the bill..

 

I still think Ford has the potential to live up to where he was picked though, and if he goes on to be a starter over the rest of his rookie deal and hopefully signs a second contract, it won’t turn out to be “bad”..

Well they were all wrong on Ford.  Beane knew that by the end of the 1st round.  
 

 

[Aussie Joe]

Just now, Mr. WEO said:

Well they were all wrong on Ford.  Beane knew that by the end of the 1st round.  
 

 

I’ll never claim that the draft is an exact science..

 

If he has Ford rated higher on his board then the WR’s remaining  then he should pick him.

[soflabillsfan1]

15 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

First, whatever post you are talking about is not what I replied to.

 

Second, "soon" has plenty of leeway. It's absolutely not a total exaggeration that they could be getting paid soon. Allen and Edmund could get paid as soon as next off-season. I very much doubt that Allen in particular will, but "soon" is a very reasonable word under the circumstances.

 

Yeah, the Bills control Tre for another two years. That does not in any sense rule out giving him a new contract as soon as before or during this season. Depending on the details of the contract it could easily make total sense for both parties. And extending guys who are key contributors in a year when you have a lot of money makes total sense.

 

As for going to get a final big piece or two ... well, that's fine if that's the way you would spend money. I myself am very happy that McDermott and Beane have made it very clear that it's not how they do things. They build their core through the draft and fill in with low- and medium-priced FAs and they prioritize bringing back their own guys, and they've said it so many times now I wonder how people still fight to ignore their words.

It's not what you replied to but you replied to ScottLaw, who's reply was to that post by Elijah.  It's the inception of the argument.

 

It's a total exaggeration that Edmunds and Allen are getting paid soon.  Guys like Joey Bosa and Aaron Donald played 4 years on their rookie deals.  To think Edmunds won't play another 2 years on his deal is a stretch.  The only reason he wouldn't is if it would somehow be beneficial to the cap if he redid his deal after 3 but that would go against your argument anyways.   Same goes for Allen.  Wentz and Goff got their deals done after 3 years but Josh hasn't shown what those guys showed in year 2 and 3.  Maybe Josh blows the lid off it next year and they want to redo his deal next offseason, but again, that's a stretch and not probable.

 

The argument was the Bills don't have the money to hypothetically give Golladay a new contract without losing current, key players on the roster.  That is not true.  They have the ability to do Dawkins, Milano, Shaq and Poyer this offseason, Tre next and potentially Edmunds and Allen the following year.  Hats off to Beane because the Bills are in great shape to be able to do this. This team is a #1 WR away from having a contender type team.  I don't know how anyone could not want to make that move now. 

Edited February 14, 2020 by soflabillsfan1

[CajunBillsBacker]

If he would agree to a new 4 or 5 year contract, absolutely. He’s young and just entering his prime, and he’s a proven receiver. if you draft a receiver at 22, there’s a chance he could be as good as Golladay, or there’s a chance he could be another Corey Coleman or Kevin White. Always take the surest thing.

 

Golladay, Brown, and Beasley would be a fantastic trio.

[Mr. WEO]

1 hour ago, Aussie Joe said:

I’ll never claim that the draft is an exact science..

 

If he has Ford rated higher on his board then the WR’s remaining  then he should pick him.

Yhat was the crux of this discussion: he did

[Chicken Boo]

On 2/12/2020 at 12:17 PM, elijah said:

No. 

 

Draft offers more youth, some players seemingly with more talent, and a lot less money. 

 

The first round pick for X questions just don’t make much sense, especially with the WR depth this year. 

 

What?  Golloday will be going into his 4th year.  A budding star.  6'4" 215 with a 18.3ypc.  Has improved every year he's been in the league.

 

The best you can do is HOPE whoever is drafted puts forth that kind of production.

 

What's with this board and the dismissal of proven talent?  Yet more than half of you are jazzed about signing A 35 year old tight end with 1 foot out the door.

 

Raise your standards!

On 2/12/2020 at 12:18 PM, Virgil said:

He’s the speed, big bodied guy everyone says we need 

 

And to further prove how worthless metrics can be, Golloday ran a 4.5 at the combine.

Edited February 14, 2020 by Chicken Boo

[Thurman#1]

23 hours ago, ScottLaw said:

I didn’t say I think they’ll spend like sailors, I said I think you’ll see them add a couple somewhat splashy signings/trades like an AJ Green or Yannick or someone of their level. 

 

You aren’t going to see the same FA approach as last year because they don’t need the same approach. The team had holes and lack of depth everywhere as they signed the most FAs of any team last offseason. You’ll see them prioritize quality over quantity this offseason and focus on guys who can help put them over the top. 

 

 

You didn't use the words "spend like sailors," but then you talk about adding both Green and Yannick, which for them in one year is likely well within their definition of spending like sailors. You're like the guy who says, "I'm not drinking right now. This beer? Beer's not drinking." Yes it is, and while you don't want the words to be associated with you, the moves you're talking about are exactly what they've always said they're not going to do.

 

And while the year-to-year strategies will absolutely differ, you're desperately hoping that something that they obvious consider not a year-to-year strategy but a foundational principle will change. And it won't. They've said the same thing about not spending a ton on FAs every single time they've been asked, not just this year but with absolute consistency since their very first press conference.

 

Here's the most recent, from the end of season PC about three weeks ago:

 

 

https://billswire.usatoday.com/2020/01/07/buffalo-bills-brandon-beane-press-conference-8-takeaways/

 

"Since taking over as Buffalo’s general manager in the 2017 offseason, Beane’s roster additions have been consistent and concentrated, often making under-the-radar moves that prove to be more impactful than initially thought. With roughly $90 million in cap space to play with in the offseason, Beane again plans to make careful and well thought out moves that may not steal headlines, but will improve the team’s roster.

 

“I don’t think we’re one player away,” Beane said. “I never think you are, and I definitely don’t think we’re one player away. You lose the first round of the playoffs, that doesn’t say to me [that] the Bills are one player away from being exactly where they want to be.

 

“We’re a lot of positions away that we’ve got to clean up or answer.”

 

 

 

Hunh. Seems almost as if he in fact would disagree that they are only a few players away.

 

Beane is who he is. You can either deal with it or not. Your choice.

 

And as for "add a couple somewhat splashy signings/trades," again, yeah, very solid guess. They could re-sign Tre' White, for instance, or Dawkins,  and they had some nice somewhat splashy signings last year in Morse, Cole Beasley and John Brown. It totally would make sense for them to do the same kind of thing again this year.

 

 

 

17 hours ago, soflabillsfan1 said:

It's not what you replied to but you replied to ScottLaw, who's reply was to that post by Elijah.  It's the inception of the argument.

 

It's a total exaggeration that Edmunds and Allen are getting paid soon.  Guys like Joey Bosa and Aaron Donald played 4 years on their rookie deals.  To think Edmunds won't play another 2 years on his deal is a stretch.  The only reason he wouldn't is if it would somehow be beneficial to the cap if he redid his deal after 3 but that would go against your argument anyways.   Same goes for Allen.  Wentz and Goff got their deals done after 3 years but Josh hasn't shown what those guys showed in year 2 and 3.  Maybe Josh blows the lid off it next year and they want to redo his deal next offseason, but again, that's a stretch and not probable.

 

The argument was the Bills don't have the money to hypothetically give Golladay a new contract without losing current, key players on the roster.  That is not true.  They have the ability to do Dawkins, Milano, Shaq and Poyer this offseason, Tre next and potentially Edmunds and Allen the following year.  Hats off to Beane because the Bills are in great shape to be able to do this. This team is a #1 WR away from having a contender type team.  I don't know how anyone could not want to make that move now. 

 

 

Look, first that's only a small part of the argument. And second, if you want to force the word "soon" to mean something it doesn't, fine, go ahead, whatever. Your business. But for most people, next year is soon. I won't bother continuing that argument, it's not worth another keystroke to me. But pretending that they might not sign Edmunds as soon as March 2021 is kidding yourself. They might not. Equally, they might not, but it's absolutely something they'll consider. Same with Tre' and Dawkins and the others who they can consider as early as next month. Just because a guy is under contract for longer doesn't mean it won't be economically sensible to extend him now. They've said it's their first priority to re-sign guys and maintain continuity, and to build their core through the draft.

 

The argument isn't "whether they have the ability to hypothetically give Golladay a new contract ..." It's whether they will, or maybe whether they would if he were available. It's whether that's the kind of move they intend to make. Look at their models and you see those teams making a move that big very infrequently, once every five years or so, roughly. Could this be the year? Maybe. I seriously doubt it with Golladay myself, even if he were available, not for the money he's likely to demand and the draft pick the Lions would likely demand.