njbuff Posted February 10, 2020 Posted February 10, 2020 Will a stadium in Buffalo take away from the tailgating?
Kirby Jackson Posted February 10, 2020 Posted February 10, 2020 Just now, apuszczalowski said: I think most of the owners are closer to the Jones/Kraft's where they want to make money and would like to reach the same level of building a better facility then Dallas or now LA and Vegas, but they know they can't in their markets. Brown is known to be very cheap and not wanting to shell out money. Ralph I think was more willing to stand up against it because he knew at his age he wasnt going to be around much longer so he could stand up for it. I don't think the Pegulas are the type that are going to stand up against the others and fight, they know what they were getting into when they bought the team and more then likely had it part of their purchase agreement of the team that they had certain obligations to meet to bring things more in balance with the rest of the league. I think that you’re spot on with these thoughts. It is an inevitability at this point. It’s just a matter of what exactly it looks like. Just now, njbuff said: Will a stadium in Buffalo take away from the tailgating? Most likely It will take on a different form and evolve. There will probably be some tailgating as we know it. Additionally there will be a lot more bars, restaurants, etc... My guess (strictly a guess) is that it will kind of work like Cleveland in that sense. They still have tailgating in the muni lot but they also have a variety of other options. 1
njbuff Posted February 10, 2020 Posted February 10, 2020 2 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said: I think that you’re spot on with these thoughts. It is an inevitability at this point. It’s just a matter of what exactly it looks like. Most likely It will take on a different form and evolve. There will probably be some tailgating as we know it. Additionally there will be a lot more bars, restaurants, etc... My guess (strictly a guess) is that it will kind of work like Cleveland in that sense. They still have tailgating in the muni lot but they also have a variety of other options. So, there will be like a mini-city around the stadium then?
May Day 10 Posted February 10, 2020 Posted February 10, 2020 IMO, the red tape and necessary $ cost for infrastructure improvements/traffic will prevent a downtown stadium. I always thought the best $ spent for this would be a new stadium across the street from New Era Field. Goodell's recent comments though give me alarm that the major renovation may be the conclusion of the studies and analysis.
Kirby Jackson Posted February 10, 2020 Posted February 10, 2020 3 minutes ago, njbuff said: So, there will be like a mini-city around the stadium then? Depending on where they put it. I’m sure that you will see development around it. 1
corta765 Posted February 10, 2020 Posted February 10, 2020 On 2/8/2020 at 12:33 PM, T master said: If this continues to go as it has been going only the true Bills fans that have followed the team since the 90's will be in the stadium because the younger generation being lazy as they are & being less than their tougher relatives that raised them will rather sit in a warm living room watching the game than go to a nice brand new Billion $ stadium just because there is to much effort involved !! This type of stuff is tiresome and pathetic. Newsflash despite the Bills having their best record in two decades the Ravens game had tickets available for $30 a seat. The biggest game against the best team in the NFL was for $30. Certain Bills fans love to brag about "the elements' "being tough" etc.. well truth is the support for those games isn't there. What was another big game in 2017 at home against the Dolphins in December wasn't even a sellout despite having a decent shot at the playoffs. Snowbowl which I was at in 2017 wasn't close to a sellout in another game with playoff implications. This isn't a generational thing, older folks, families, many fans in general would prefer a stadium where they can go without risk of getting sick or having their fan experience be one of freezing the whole game. The world has evolved many people don't view entertainment as being in those conditions for hours on end. If they did it should be impossible to get tickets to the Ravens or Colts or Phins. There is a reason why the early season games are far more expensive regularly. It is an entertainment business first and foremost and the NFL for years has been looking for the Bills to expand their revenue streams. If that comes at the expense of not being out doors and not being able to jump drunkenly through tables on fire during a tailgate while allowing a wider audience to come more regularly it won't even be a question of what direction they pick. The Bills are an Alamo of sorts in terms of the sport and that isn't a good thing if you care about their long term viability in the league. 1
blacklabel Posted February 10, 2020 Posted February 10, 2020 Why don't teams like Chicago, Green Bay, New Orleans, and Kansas City get hassled for new stadiums? All of those places are just as old or older than New Era, yet you never really hear about those teams being pressed to build a new place. I get that they consider Chicago and Green Bay "historic landmark" stadiums or whatever, but even so, Soldier Field has been open since 1924 and Lambeau Field since 1957. Seems like every other team, though, has opened a new stadium within the last 20-25 years, some within the last 10 or so. I really don't mind New Era. And they've put a lot of money into the renovations and the new training facilities that just opened. Now they're just supposed to abandon that and set up shop somewhere else? Guess it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Do Chicago, GB, etc. have some sort of exempt status? 1
Reed83HOF Posted February 10, 2020 Posted February 10, 2020 3 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: It varies in an unpredictable way, is the problem. If you don't raise any flags, have your paperwork ready, and cross at a not busy time, can be 5-10 minutes. If you cross at a busier time, can take half an hour If you, someone in your group, or your car fit a profile of someone they're focusing on or someone in your group raises a flag, can take much longer. No way of controlling if they're on the lookout for a beige Ford Taurus that morning. I like the way you think. Inside the dome, but outside the box. That would probably be the world's largest geodesic dome, so bonus tourist attraction. 1
LabattBlue Posted February 10, 2020 Posted February 10, 2020 5 minutes ago, blacklabel said: Why don't teams like Chicago, Green Bay, New Orleans, and Kansas City get hassled for new stadiums? Ummmm...probably because they poured hundreds of millions into stadium renovations over the last decade.
Kirby Jackson Posted February 10, 2020 Posted February 10, 2020 12 minutes ago, blacklabel said: Why don't teams like Chicago, Green Bay, New Orleans, and Kansas City get hassled for new stadiums? All of those places are just as old or older than New Era, yet you never really hear about those teams being pressed to build a new place. I get that they consider Chicago and Green Bay "historic landmark" stadiums or whatever, but even so, Soldier Field has been open since 1924 and Lambeau Field since 1957. Seems like every other team, though, has opened a new stadium within the last 20-25 years, some within the last 10 or so. I really don't mind New Era. And they've put a lot of money into the renovations and the new training facilities that just opened. Now they're just supposed to abandon that and set up shop somewhere else? Guess it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Do Chicago, GB, etc. have some sort of exempt status? Not sure if you are trolling or not but every single one of those places underwent MASSIVE renovations. Renovations that cost about as much as a new stadium. 3 1
corta765 Posted February 10, 2020 Posted February 10, 2020 14 minutes ago, blacklabel said: Why don't teams like Chicago, Green Bay, New Orleans, and Kansas City get hassled for new stadiums? All of those places are just as old or older than New Era, yet you never really hear about those teams being pressed to build a new place. I get that they consider Chicago and Green Bay "historic landmark" stadiums or whatever, but even so, Soldier Field has been open since 1924 and Lambeau Field since 1957. Seems like every other team, though, has opened a new stadium within the last 20-25 years, some within the last 10 or so. I really don't mind New Era. And they've put a lot of money into the renovations and the new training facilities that just opened. Now they're just supposed to abandon that and set up shop somewhere else? Guess it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Do Chicago, GB, etc. have some sort of exempt status? GB renovated theirs for 540 mil CHI built a new stadium on top of Solider NOLA is doing renovation for over a billion KC also did massive Reno for like 500 mil 3 1
billsfan89 Posted February 10, 2020 Posted February 10, 2020 1 hour ago, apuszczalowski said: No one said it had to be a Billion dollar palace similar to Dallas, or the new ones in LA or Vegas. They could build a new one similar to Indy's while lowering the seating to the 60k seat range with some more luxury boxes and continue to develop around that downtown area with some more bars and hotels. It's going to cost more then $500 mil but can be done under a billion, it just won't be as fancy as those big 3 places. I recently read an article that focused more about the new baseball stadiums, but they were saying how now it's all about development around the stadium. They want you to come for the game, but stay in the area afterwards. They don't want places where you go to the game and leave right after, they are being built closer to down towns where they can develop bars, restaurants and hotels so you make a day out of it going to the games and then staying around afterwards. The Pegulas have started this with Harbour Centre by the arena where it has hotels and a bar/restaurant. The Pegulas know they have to do something, and most likely were told as part of the league agreeing to their ownership bid that they had to do something about the stadium soon. So I wouldn't expect them to just turn around and say no to the league, they are happy with what they have. It's just a matter of whether is feasible to get to a level the league will be happy with through renovations to the existing like KC, GB, and Chicago did (GB and CHI did it mostly because Lambeau and Soldier field were a bit more iconic as playing fields), or if it makes more sense to build new. One of the 2 are going to happen. Some, like Gates or Buffett may give alot of it away, but they doesn't mean they will do things for free and not make money. They all want to maximise their assetts, bit some may be willing to share more of it with others. The Pegulas may be nice people looking to help, but they aren't a charity and aren't going to not want to maximise the return on their investment by not caring about revenue. I think even a basic stadium is going to cost if not a billion very close to a billion. The Colts built their stadium in the late 2000's for 792 million dollars. That is a cost of 963 million in 2020 dollars adjusted for inflation. Also the Colts were aided by building before construction costs generally skyrocketed (I think there were various factors that made arenas and stadiums cost a lot more to build in the 2010's as opposed to the 2000's.) I think even a stadium that costs 950 million to build is still way too much money for a market like Buffalo to spend on a stadium that will sit empty 345 days a year. A 400-500 million dollar stadium renovation for New Era field is just a much better use of money and is much easier to finance. 46 minutes ago, blacklabel said: Why don't teams like Chicago, Green Bay, New Orleans, and Kansas City get hassled for new stadiums? All of those places are just as old or older than New Era, yet you never really hear about those teams being pressed to build a new place. I get that they consider Chicago and Green Bay "historic landmark" stadiums or whatever, but even so, Soldier Field has been open since 1924 and Lambeau Field since 1957. Seems like every other team, though, has opened a new stadium within the last 20-25 years, some within the last 10 or so. I really don't mind New Era. And they've put a lot of money into the renovations and the new training facilities that just opened. Now they're just supposed to abandon that and set up shop somewhere else? Guess it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Do Chicago, GB, etc. have some sort of exempt status? As another poster pointed out all those teams you mentioned did build new stadiums or massive renovations. I agree with you that if The Ralph is structurally sound I don't see why you would need to do anything and waste money building a new stadium or renovating the current one. Football stadiums sit empty 345 days a year. All I want for a stadium (esp in a market like Buffalo) is that it is a good place to see a game. But the NFL is a business and new stadium and renovated stadiums create more revenue and revenue opportunities. The NFL will always pressure teams to build new stadiums or renovate as their stadiums age. I think the best way to keep the economics happy and not waste nearly as much money is to just do a massive 400-500 million dollar renovation to the Ralph. Make it as modern a stadium as possible and finance it in a way that doesn't cost the tax payers anything other than maybe loans/bonds that get paid back. 1
blacklabel Posted February 10, 2020 Posted February 10, 2020 Thanks for everyone answering my question, appreciate it. I guess I'd wonder as to why Buffalo couldn't do major renovations like those other teams did, but I'm sure that would take quite a while and I can't think of any alternate places they could play in the meantime. I mean, UB, but the capacity there tops out at a little over 25k. I feel like it'd be a waste to have built all those new facilities last year and then just abandon them within less than a decade or whatever. Unless they decided that practice would still be at New Era and games at the new spot? I dunno much about this stadium bidness.
corta765 Posted February 10, 2020 Posted February 10, 2020 18 minutes ago, billsfan89 said: As another poster pointed out all those teams you mentioned did build new stadiums or massive renovations. I agree with you that if The Ralph is structurally sound I don't see why you would need to do anything and waste money building a new stadium or renovating the current one. Football stadiums sit empty 345 days a year. All I want for a stadium (esp in a market like Buffalo) is that it is a good place to see a game. But the NFL is a business and new stadium and renovated stadiums create more revenue and revenue opportunities. The NFL will always pressure teams to build new stadiums or renovate as their stadiums age. I think the best way to keep the economics happy and not waste nearly as much money is to just do a massive 400-500 million dollar renovation to the Ralph. Make it as modern a stadium as possible and finance it in a way that doesn't cost the tax payers anything other than maybe loans/bonds that get paid back. Thank you for posting this to show the two of these things are not mutually exclusive. From a pure watching standpoint the Ralph is like you fine no issues. But your in the largest entertainment league in the world where they do anything to make money ... and Buffalo has people jumping through tables lol. That isn't a shot just a point that compared to literally the rest of the league were still in 1995 by revenue standards. The Pegulas are really hard to read because for as much as they talk renovation and a Buffalo fit, I have this gut feeling they would LOVE to be downtown with the rest of their investment. The Byron Brown has already said he wants the team back downtown. Truthfully its a really hard egg to figure out if they do go downtown because you need to somehow keep the cost within reason, have the ability for a good amount of safe tailgating, while also having more family options pre game, with ok access in and out, and a facility that is able to be used more regularly....YIKES lol Just now, blacklabel said: Thanks for everyone answering my question, appreciate it. I guess I'd wonder as to why Buffalo couldn't do major renovations like those other teams did, but I'm sure that would take quite a while and I can't think of any alternate places they could play in the meantime. I mean, UB, but the capacity there tops out at a little over 25k. I feel like it'd be a waste to have built all those new facilities last year and then just abandon them within less than a decade or whatever. Unless they decided that practice would still be at New Era and games at the new spot? I dunno much about this stadium bidness. Many NFL teams practice in one spot but play elsewhere. Carolina are building like a 100 million practice facility that is actually just in South Carolina no where near the stadium. If a stadium was downtown I don't doubt they keep everything else in Orchard Park. My solution to the old stadium is to make it a high end ampitheater/park mix which the area desperately needs. As for reno vs. new I think the one crucial piece is how much the city of Buffalo wants to get the team downtown. The mayor could absolutely use that as another piece of showing the Buffalo revival and that's a lot of money that comes downtown pre and post game etc.. It'll be interesting
LabattBlue Posted February 10, 2020 Posted February 10, 2020 9 minutes ago, blacklabel said: I feel like it'd be a waste to have built all those new facilities last year and then just abandon them within less than a decade or whatever. Unless they decided that practice would still be at New Era and games at the new spot? You answered your own question. If a new stadiium is built downtown, the team offices/weight room and practice facilities would all remain in their current location. 2 1
Mr. WEO Posted February 10, 2020 Posted February 10, 2020 2 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said: Because they own a business!! I’ve never, in my life, seen a business owner that doesn’t care about how much money they make. I’ve never seen someone say, “I have enough money.” That’s just not the real world. He wants his asset, the Bills, to keep going up in value. He can use public funds to help make that a reality. Of course he is going to do that!! They, and every other team, are going up in value all the time. Never down. The incremental increase in what, ticket sales?, food? in a new stadium that, let's say, he put a billion out of pocket towards----it's not going to be a good return on investment to tie up all that money. He's clearing tens of millions a year as it is now, debt free. He could cash out anytime and make a killing. 1
Whites Bay Posted February 10, 2020 Posted February 10, 2020 1 hour ago, corta765 said: GB renovated theirs for 540 mil CHI built a new stadium on top of Solider NOLA is doing renovation for over a billion KC also did massive Reno for like 500 mil If it's a Bears-scale renovation, it'll be interesting to see where the Bills would play. The Bears had to play at the University of Illinois stadium for at least one season. Was it two? I can't remember, and can't find it anywhere. But I remember it taking FOREVER. 1
LabattBlue Posted February 10, 2020 Posted February 10, 2020 14 minutes ago, Whites Bay said: If it's a Bears-scale renovation, it'll be interesting to see where the Bills would play. The Bears had to play at the University of Illinois stadium for at least one season. Was it two? I can't remember, and can't find it anywhere. But I remember it taking FOREVER. One season at University of Illinois(2002), along with the preseason games for 2003. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_Chicago_Bears_season
Kirby Jackson Posted February 10, 2020 Posted February 10, 2020 59 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said: They, and every other team, are going up in value all the time. Never down. The incremental increase in what, ticket sales?, food? in a new stadium that, let's say, he put a billion out of pocket towards----it's not going to be a good return on investment to tie up all that money. He's clearing tens of millions a year as it is now, debt free. He could cash out anytime and make a killing. He’s not putting out a billion out of pocket!! He’s probably not putting out half of that. NFL teams are constantly increasing in value but the Bills get a fairly sizable jump with a new stadium. Is it crazy to think that the value of the team increases $250M with a new stadium? That’s roughly, what I expect him to come out of pocket for. If the value jumps by $250M and he is generating more revenue it makes sense for him (depending on the debt he takes on). 1 hour ago, Whites Bay said: If it's a Bears-scale renovation, it'll be interesting to see where the Bills would play. The Bears had to play at the University of Illinois stadium for at least one season. Was it two? I can't remember, and can't find it anywhere. But I remember it taking FOREVER. Toronto? I know no one wants to hear that but that’s probably the most sensical answer. That’s part of the reason though that the renovation route is unlikely.
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