Kirby Jackson Posted February 9, 2020 Posted February 9, 2020 15 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said: what $400m(ish)? The state will be contributing something like that. Before someone goes to “the state is broke” or whatever. It will end up happening. That’s just the way it is.
Mr. WEO Posted February 9, 2020 Posted February 9, 2020 2 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said: The state will be contributing something like that. Before someone goes to “the state is broke” or whatever. It will end up happening. That’s just the way it is. That will be a heavy lift after the "Buffalo Billion" scam...
OldTimeAFLGuy Posted February 9, 2020 Posted February 9, 2020 (edited) 10 hours ago, Mr. WEO said: That will be a heavy lift after the "Buffalo Billion" scam... ..."In God We DON'T Trust In Big Fredo"......to come up with 400 mil........... Edited February 10, 2020 by OldTimeAFLGuy 1 1
Mr. WEO Posted February 9, 2020 Posted February 9, 2020 1 hour ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said: ..."In God We DON'T Trust In Big Fredo"......what's his return?.......after all, $62.4 BILLION in welfare comes first (#3 in the US)...... huh?
PromoTheRobot Posted February 9, 2020 Posted February 9, 2020 2 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said: Yep, you are the only one that thinks that. He will forgo $400m(ish) from the state? Absolutely not Any chance Jeremy Jacobs kicks in a hundred mil for Delaware North concession rights?
Ed_Formerly_of_Roch Posted February 9, 2020 Posted February 9, 2020 One thing I will say about video boards, I don't care how big you make it, I find it really screws you up when you're sitting on the opposite side of the stadium that the video is shot from. Half of the people in the stadium end up watching everything in reverse of what you're seeing in front of you and I found it became very annoying. I had really good seats too, club level, but still could see better looking at the replay, except it's in reverse of what I just saw with my eyes.
Buffalo716 Posted February 9, 2020 Posted February 9, 2020 3 hours ago, shane nelson said: Are the owners greedy, YES, is it a monopoly, YES. But if you love the Bills and want them in Buffalo for the next 50 years for your kids and your kids/kids then they need a new modern home. Significant rebuild of NEF of a DT stadium is the only way to ensure they are where they are meant to be. And it does not matter what any of us want, we don't own the asset, we did not spend over $1B to buy the team. This is the reality of the NFL and business in general. There is nothing different between putting a new stadium downtown and one in OP One in downtown won't revitalize the city or start make crazy cash. There is nothing to show that it will bump the economy They just need to build it in a new era lot 1
Jrb1979 Posted February 9, 2020 Posted February 9, 2020 5 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said: There is nothing different between putting a new stadium downtown and one in OP One in downtown won't revitalize the city or start make crazy cash. There is nothing to show that it will bump the economy They just need to build it in a new era lot There is a difference between putting one downtown over one in OP. The tailgating will be limited, so fans will have to go the bars and restaurants around the stadium. No more private lots, it most likely just be tailgating in Bills owned lots. As much as fans don't want to hear it, the Bills and NFL owners are always looking for ways to make more money.
djp14150 Posted February 9, 2020 Posted February 9, 2020 On 2/8/2020 at 12:33 PM, T master said: Despite the love for the game & the increase in fans in B/lo watching our team due to doing better with all the young talent Beane & company have brought in i believe the Pegs could use this information to argue that they don't want or need a new stadium in western NY . If you read the first line in this article it's a tell all for that, seeing as attendance is lower to do the stadium experience why would any team want to spend a Billion $ on a new stadium ? https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2020/02/08/rams-and-chargers-stadium-promises-big-breakthrough-with-4k-video/ Then there is the thought that the NFL doesn't really & truly care about what the fans think when it comes to decision making the only thing they care about is the $$ in this article it goes as far as saying they don't care about 2 very important pieces of the games success 1 being the fans 2 being the players, with out either of which the game wouldn't be as profitable as it is ! The 3rd & 4th paragraph in this explains a lot about what the NFL is all about . Please actually read them before coming to any conclusions ... https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2020/02/07/poll-shows-strong-fan-opposition-to-17-game-season/ If this continues to go as it has been going only the true Bills fans that have followed the team since the 90's will be in the stadium because the younger generation being lazy as they are & being less than their tougher relatives that raised them will rather sit in a warm living room watching the game than go to a nice brand new Billion $ stadium just because there is to much effort involved !! Eventually if the viewership & revenues due to these things continue to head south the NFL may have to do what the WWE is doing & even the NFL to in some respects as far as they did with MNF in changing the games to a PPV type experience to off set the loss of fans actually going to the stadium . Okay flame away Bills fans, I do know one thing for sure that no matter what the out come of scheduling or TV viewership Bills fans will always have their opinions & won't stop short of hanging some one like me in the square to burn me at the stake in the social media forum so have at it let the linching begin !! The nfl would gain a lot of revenue if they had a team loyalty streaming package where you can get your teams games on home tv and not have to do directiv. tv rating has to do with quality of content and how the schedule is made.
Mike in Horseheads Posted February 9, 2020 Posted February 9, 2020 3 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said: The state will be contributing something like that. Before someone goes to “the state is broke” or whatever. It will end up happening. That’s just the way it is. Respect the hell out of you but "the state is broke" . They played a accounting game last year deferring Medicaid Payments to 4/1/19 (new fiscal year) and screwed NFP's by a week cash flow (CFO of one). The have the same issue this year. Following enactment of the New York State Budget for Fiscal Year 2020, the Enacted Budget Financial Plan for FY 2020 revealed a troubling action taken under the Medicaid program: the State deferred a payment, including $1.7 billion in State funds, that should have been made in March 2019.2 Instead of making the payment near the end of the month when it was due, the State delayed the payment by three days, shifting the disbursement from fiscal year 2019 into fiscal year 2020 in order to adhere to the program’s fiscal year 2019 budget and the State’s “Medicaid Global Cap.”3 This action was not a one-time event. The State deferred payments in previous years to remain within budgeted spending levels, but the magnitude of the latest occurrence is unprecedented and obscures the State’s fiscal standing and outlook.
Buffalo716 Posted February 9, 2020 Posted February 9, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Jrb1979 said: There is a difference between putting one downtown over one in OP. The tailgating will be limited, so fans will have to go the bars and restaurants around the stadium. No more private lots, it most likely just be tailgating in Bills owned lots. As much as fans don't want to hear it, the Bills and NFL owners are always looking for ways to make more money. That's totally an opinion and urban stadiums have not shown to bring an uptick in the economy I would never NEVER NEVERRRR bar hop around the city pre gaming for a Bills game and lots won't. First the new ticket prices in the stadium will be crazy and you're going to be spending buckoo bucks, bar hopping around the city pre gaming would make it a ludicrously expensive day And the majority of buffalonians are hard working paycheck to paycheck people. They will not spend that kind of money Buffalo has something 99% of NFL franchises don't have , a college atmosphere and camaraderie... That all goes away if it's downtown I live in the city, we don't need a stadium downtown Edited February 9, 2020 by Buffalo716 1
Kirby Jackson Posted February 10, 2020 Posted February 10, 2020 (edited) 6 hours ago, PromoTheRobot said: Any chance Jeremy Jacobs kicks in a hundred mil for Delaware North concession rights? That’s one of my thoughts. Don’t know exactly what it looks like but have a feeling he has a role in it. 4 hours ago, Mike in Horseheads said: Respect the hell out of you but "the state is broke" . They played a accounting game last year deferring Medicaid Payments to 4/1/19 (new fiscal year) and screwed NFP's by a week cash flow (CFO of one). The have the same issue this year. Following enactment of the New York State Budget for Fiscal Year 2020, the Enacted Budget Financial Plan for FY 2020 revealed a troubling action taken under the Medicaid program: the State deferred a payment, including $1.7 billion in State funds, that should have been made in March 2019.2 Instead of making the payment near the end of the month when it was due, the State delayed the payment by three days, shifting the disbursement from fiscal year 2019 into fiscal year 2020 in order to adhere to the program’s fiscal year 2019 budget and the State’s “Medicaid Global Cap.”3 This action was not a one-time event. The State deferred payments in previous years to remain within budgeted spending levels, but the magnitude of the latest occurrence is unprecedented and obscures the State’s fiscal standing and outlook. Oh I know, that’s why I prefaced it. It may be at the county level or whatever but there will absolutely be public funds involved. That’s just the way that is in 2020. The Bills will point to the countless other teams in broke states that already got it. The precedent is too strong for an exception. Edited February 10, 2020 by Kirby Jackson
boater Posted February 10, 2020 Posted February 10, 2020 Buffalo is the 88th largest city in the US.. after Glendale AZ. Buffalo is punching well above it's weight merely by having an NFL team. Buffalo need not keep up with the Joneses because Bflo shouldn't be in the league in the first place. Nothing wrong with having the 32nd best stadium. I will repeat "Nothing wrong with having the 32nd best stadium" 1
Orlando Buffalo Posted February 10, 2020 Posted February 10, 2020 7 hours ago, BUFFALOKIE said: Am I the only person who expects El Pugaul to slap his dick on the table, alongside a cool Bill(ion), pay for a new stadium himself, and say "bring it *****!" The man would become a legend, and that precedent would change the sporting world. Day drinking and doing laundry. The only way he does this is if the State of NY agrees to let him do whatever he wants on stadium and signs off on everything basically before he lays the first brick. I highly doubt the state will not want their pound of flesh in this deal.
Lurker Posted February 10, 2020 Posted February 10, 2020 (edited) 29 minutes ago, boater said: Buffalo is the 88th largest city in the US.. after Glendale AZ. Buffalo is punching well above it's weight merely by having an NFL team. Buffalo need not keep up with the Joneses because Bflo shouldn't be in the league in the first place. Nothing wrong with having the 32nd best stadium. I will repeat "Nothing wrong with having the 32nd best stadium" I't's frustrating when people mis-quote statistics like this. The City of Buffalo makes up only a quarter of the Buffalo metro area. And there are 4-5 million people within a 90 minute drive of Orchard Park... U.S. Population – Metropolitan Statistical Area Population Click on heading to sort. Rank Metropolitan Statistical Area 2010 Census 2018 Estimate Growth (%) 1 New York-Newark-Jersey City, NY-NJ-PA 19,567,410 19,979,477 2.1 2 Los Angeles-Long Beach-Anaheim, CA 12,828,837 13,291,486 3.6 3 Chicago-Naperville-Elgin, IL-IN-WI 9,461,105 9,498,716 0.4 4 Dallas-Fort Worth-Arlington, TX 6,426,214 7,539,711 17.3 5 Philadelphia-Camden-Wilmington, PA-NJ-DE-MD 5,965,343 6,096,372 2.2 6 Houston-The Woodlands-Sugar Land, TX 5,920,416 6,997,384 18.2 7 Washington-Arlington-Alexandria, DC-VA-MD-WV 5,636,232 6,249,950 10.9 8 Miami-Fort Lauderdale-West Palm Beach, FL 5,564,635 6,198,782 11.4 9 Atlanta-Sandy Springs-Roswell, GA 5,286,728 5,949,951 12.5 10 Boston-Cambridge-Newton, MA-NH 4,552,402 4,875,390 7.1 11 San Francisco-Oakland-Hayward, CA 4,335,391 4,729,484 9.1 12 Detroit-Warren-Dearborn, MI 4,296,250 4,326,442 0.7 13 Riverside-San Bernardino-Ontario, CA 4,224,851 4,622,361 9.4 14 Phoenix-Mesa-Scottsdale, AZ 4,192,887 4,857,962 15.9 15 Seattle-Tacoma-Bellevue, WA 3,439,809 3,939,363 14.5 16 Minneapolis-St. Paul-Bloomington, MN-WI 3,348,859 3,629,190 8.4 17 San Diego-Carlsbad, CA 3,095,313 3,343,364 8 18 St. Louis, MO-IL 2,787,701 2,805,465 0.6 19 Tampa-St. Petersburg-Clearwater, FL 2,783,243 3,142,663 12.9 20 Baltimore-Columbia-Towson, MD 2,710,489 2,802,789 3.4 21 Denver-Aurora-Lakewood, CO 2,543,482 2,932,415 15.3 22 Pittsburgh, PA 2,356,285 2,324,743 -1.3 23 San Juan-Carolina-Caguas, PR 2,350,126 2,023,237 -13.9 24 Portland-Vancouver-Hillsboro, OR-WA 2,226,009 2,478,810 11.4 25 Charlotte-Concord-Gastonia, NC-SC 2,217,012 2,569,213 15.9 26 Sacramento--Roseville--Arden-Arcade, CA 2,149,127 2,345,210 9.1 27 San Antonio-New Braunfels, TX 2,142,508 2,518,036 17.5 28 Orlando-Kissimmee-Sanford, FL 2,134,411 2,572,962 20.5 29 Cincinnati, OH-KY-IN 2,114,580 2,190,209 3.6 30 Cleveland-Elyria, OH 2,077,240 2,057,009 -1 31 Kansas City, MO-KS 2,009,342 2,143,651 6.7 32 Las Vegas-Henderson-Paradise, NV 1,951,269 2,231,647 14.4 33 Columbus, OH 1,901,974 2,106,541 10.8 34 Indianapolis-Carmel-Anderson, IN 1,887,877 2,048,703 8.5 35 San Jose-Sunnyvale-Santa Clara, CA 1,836,911 1,999,107 8.8 36 Austin-Round Rock, TX 1,716,289 2,168,316 26.3 37 Virginia Beach-Norfolk-Newport News, VA-NC 1,676,822 1,728,733 3.1 38 Nashville-Davidson--Murfreesboro--Franklin, TN 1,670,890 1,930,961 15.6 39 Providence-Warwick, RI-MA 1,600,852 1,621,337 1.3 40 Milwaukee-Waukesha-West Allis, WI 1,555,908 1,576,113 1.3 41 Jacksonville, FL 1,345,596 1,534,701 14.1 42 Memphis, TN-MS-AR 1,324,829 1,350,620 1.9 43 Oklahoma City, OK 1,252,987 1,396,445 11.4 44 Louisville/Jefferson County, KY-IN 1,235,708 1,297,301 5 45 Hartford-West Hartford-East Hartford, CT 1,212,381 1,206,300 -0.5 46 Richmond, VA 1,208,101 1,306,172 8.1 47 New Orleans-Metairie, LA 1,189,866 1,270,399 6.8 48 Buffalo-Cheektowaga-Niagara Falls, NY 1,135,509 1,130,152 -0.5 49 Raleigh, NC 1,130,490 1,362,540 20.5 50 Birmingham-Hoover, AL 1,128,047 1,151,801 2.1 51 Salt Lake City, UT 1,087,873 1,222,540 12.4 52 Rochester, NY 1,079,671 1,071,082 -0.8 53 Grand Rapids-Wyoming, MI 988,938 1,069,405 8.1 54 Tucson, AZ 980,263 1,039,073 6 55 Urban Honolulu, HI 953,207 980,080 2.8 56 Tulsa, OK 937,478 993,797 6 57 Fresno, CA 930,450 994,400 6.9 58 Worcester, MA-CT 916,980 947,866 3.4 59 Bridgeport-Stamford-Norwalk, CT 916,829 943,823 2.9 60 Albuquerque, NM 887,077 915,927 3.3 Edited February 10, 2020 by Lurker 1
beerme1 Posted February 10, 2020 Posted February 10, 2020 (edited) 5 hours ago, PromoTheRobot said: Any chance Jeremy Jacobs kicks in a hundred mil for Delaware North concession rights? 1 hour ago, Kirby Jackson said: That’s one of my thoughts. Don’t know exactly what it looks like but have a feeling he has a role in it. I fully expect this to be the case. I sincerely hope it's not. I hope Pegs tell Jacobs your money's not good enough considering how your company performs for us at the stadium now and particularly the arena. Everything about Delaware North is disgraceful at the arena. The quality, the employees, the management absolute everything about Delaware North at the arena is a sad joke. They should not be allowed to buy their way into a new stadium. Screw them. I am always amazed at them considering how big and successful they are doing the very thing they suck so bad at doing in Buffalo. Just say no thanks Pegula's. Edited February 10, 2020 by beerme1
eanyills Posted February 10, 2020 Posted February 10, 2020 (edited) 42 minutes ago, Lurker said: I't's frustrating when people mis-quote statistics like this. The City of Buffalo makes up only a quarter of the Buffalo metro area. And there are 4-5 million people within a 90 minute drive of Orchard Park... U.S. Population – Metropolitan Statistical Area Population Click on heading to sort. Rank Metropolitan Statistical Area 2010 Census 2018 Estimate Growth (%) 1 New York-Newark-Jersey City, NY-NJ-PA 19,567,410 19,979,477 2.1 2 Los Angeles-Long Beach-Anaheim, CA 12,828,837 13,291,486 3.6 3 Chicago-Naperville-Elgin, IL-IN-WI 9,461,105 9,498,716 0.4 4 Dallas-Fort Worth-Arlington, TX 6,426,214 7,539,711 17.3 5 Philadelphia-Camden-Wilmington, PA-NJ-DE-MD 5,965,343 6,096,372 2.2 6 Houston-The Woodlands-Sugar Land, TX 5,920,416 6,997,384 18.2 7 Washington-Arlington-Alexandria, DC-VA-MD-WV 5,636,232 6,249,950 10.9 8 Miami-Fort Lauderdale-West Palm Beach, FL 5,564,635 6,198,782 11.4 9 Atlanta-Sandy Springs-Roswell, GA 5,286,728 5,949,951 12.5 10 Boston-Cambridge-Newton, MA-NH 4,552,402 4,875,390 7.1 11 San Francisco-Oakland-Hayward, CA 4,335,391 4,729,484 9.1 12 Detroit-Warren-Dearborn, MI 4,296,250 4,326,442 0.7 13 Riverside-San Bernardino-Ontario, CA 4,224,851 4,622,361 9.4 14 Phoenix-Mesa-Scottsdale, AZ 4,192,887 4,857,962 15.9 15 Seattle-Tacoma-Bellevue, WA 3,439,809 3,939,363 14.5 16 Minneapolis-St. Paul-Bloomington, MN-WI 3,348,859 3,629,190 8.4 17 San Diego-Carlsbad, CA 3,095,313 3,343,364 8 18 St. Louis, MO-IL 2,787,701 2,805,465 0.6 19 Tampa-St. Petersburg-Clearwater, FL 2,783,243 3,142,663 12.9 20 Baltimore-Columbia-Towson, MD 2,710,489 2,802,789 3.4 21 Denver-Aurora-Lakewood, CO 2,543,482 2,932,415 15.3 22 Pittsburgh, PA 2,356,285 2,324,743 -1.3 23 San Juan-Carolina-Caguas, PR 2,350,126 2,023,237 -13.9 24 Portland-Vancouver-Hillsboro, OR-WA 2,226,009 2,478,810 11.4 25 Charlotte-Concord-Gastonia, NC-SC 2,217,012 2,569,213 15.9 26 Sacramento--Roseville--Arden-Arcade, CA 2,149,127 2,345,210 9.1 27 San Antonio-New Braunfels, TX 2,142,508 2,518,036 17.5 28 Orlando-Kissimmee-Sanford, FL 2,134,411 2,572,962 20.5 29 Cincinnati, OH-KY-IN 2,114,580 2,190,209 3.6 30 Cleveland-Elyria, OH 2,077,240 2,057,009 -1 31 Kansas City, MO-KS 2,009,342 2,143,651 6.7 32 Las Vegas-Henderson-Paradise, NV 1,951,269 2,231,647 14.4 33 Columbus, OH 1,901,974 2,106,541 10.8 34 Indianapolis-Carmel-Anderson, IN 1,887,877 2,048,703 8.5 35 San Jose-Sunnyvale-Santa Clara, CA 1,836,911 1,999,107 8.8 36 Austin-Round Rock, TX 1,716,289 2,168,316 26.3 37 Virginia Beach-Norfolk-Newport News, VA-NC 1,676,822 1,728,733 3.1 38 Nashville-Davidson--Murfreesboro--Franklin, TN 1,670,890 1,930,961 15.6 39 Providence-Warwick, RI-MA 1,600,852 1,621,337 1.3 40 Milwaukee-Waukesha-West Allis, WI 1,555,908 1,576,113 1.3 41 Jacksonville, FL 1,345,596 1,534,701 14.1 42 Memphis, TN-MS-AR 1,324,829 1,350,620 1.9 43 Oklahoma City, OK 1,252,987 1,396,445 11.4 44 Louisville/Jefferson County, KY-IN 1,235,708 1,297,301 5 45 Hartford-West Hartford-East Hartford, CT 1,212,381 1,206,300 -0.5 46 Richmond, VA 1,208,101 1,306,172 8.1 47 New Orleans-Metairie, LA 1,189,866 1,270,399 6.8 48 Buffalo-Cheektowaga-Niagara Falls, NY 1,135,509 1,130,152 -0.5 49 Raleigh, NC 1,130,490 1,362,540 20.5 50 Birmingham-Hoover, AL 1,128,047 1,151,801 2.1 51 Salt Lake City, UT 1,087,873 1,222,540 12.4 52 Rochester, NY 1,079,671 1,071,082 -0.8 53 Grand Rapids-Wyoming, MI 988,938 1,069,405 8.1 54 Tucson, AZ 980,263 1,039,073 6 55 Urban Honolulu, HI 953,207 980,080 2.8 56 Tulsa, OK 937,478 993,797 6 57 Fresno, CA 930,450 994,400 6.9 58 Worcester, MA-CT 916,980 947,866 3.4 59 Bridgeport-Stamford-Norwalk, CT 916,829 943,823 2.9 60 Albuquerque, NM 887,077 915,927 3.3 This doesn’t even take into account the 300,000 people in Soutern Ontario who live closer to the City of Buffalo proper than people in Buffalo’s outer suburbs. Not to mention, the 700,000 people a quick hour drive down the QEW in Hamilton. Buffalo is as much of a regional center as it is a self-contained place. Edited February 10, 2020 by eanyills
Buffalo716 Posted February 10, 2020 Posted February 10, 2020 (edited) 33 minutes ago, eanyills said: This doesn’t even take into account the 300,000 people in Soutern Ontario who live closer to the City of Buffalo proper than people in Buffalo’s outer suburbs. Not to mention, the 700,000 people a quick hour drive down the QEW in Hamilton. Buffalo is as much of a regional center as it is a self-contained place. What do you consider southern Ontario , Niagara Falls Ont? And what do you consider outer suburbs? Are you talking like Akron or East Aurora lol Because I HIGHLY doubt anyone in cheektowaga or Depew or West Seneca have a longer drive time to downtown than someone from even southern Ontario.. Edited February 10, 2020 by Buffalo716
eanyills Posted February 10, 2020 Posted February 10, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Buffalo716 said: What do you consider southern Ontario , Niagara Falls Ont? And what do you consider outer suburbs? Are you talking like Akron or East Aurora lol Because I HIGHLY doubt anyone in cheektowaga or Depew or West Seneca have a longer drive time to downtown than someone from even southern Ontario.. You don’t think somebody from Fort Erie can get to downtown Buffalo quicker than somebody from Depew? They literally could walk into downtown if they wanted. Southern Ontario is generally considered the Fort Erie-Niagara Falls-St Catherines metro. That includes places like Welland. St Catherines takes about 30 minutes once you get on the QEW but it’s an easy drive. Wife is from there, made it hundreds of times. Niagara Falls ON is about a 20 minute drive into downtown Buffalo, and the Fort Erie area is literally the international first ring suburb that wasn’t. Buffalo and its inner suburbs are considered a “20 minute city.” All those Canadian residents are within, or just outside by a negligible amount of time, that 20 minute window. Most of them have direct highway access to downtown Buffalo as well. Edited February 10, 2020 by eanyills
HardyBoy Posted February 10, 2020 Posted February 10, 2020 On 2/8/2020 at 12:33 PM, T master said: If this continues to go as it has been going only the true Bills fans that have followed the team since the 90's will be in the stadium because the younger generation being lazy as they are & being less than their tougher relatives that raised them will rather sit in a warm living room watching the game than go to a nice brand new Billion $ stadium just because there is to much effort involved !! No, we'll be missing the games taking care of all the people who haven't saved for retirement, plus the crazy number getting Alzheimer's, all while the infrastructure crumbles around us. In fort lauderdale, a sewer main has broken 7 times over the last 6 or so weeks, because the pipe is like 60 years old, made our of regular iron and the salt water, that is rising, is coroding an already super old pipe. Literal poop flowing into the rivers and the intercostal killing crazy amounts of fish and doing what the heck knows other kinds of environmental damage. Basically, so instead of everyone paying a bit over time and being respectful of future generations, many chose to give us a giant finger and spend their resources having a ton of fun going to games instead of paying anything forward...you call us selfish? I know it's not everyone, but you painted with a wide brush first op. If anyone wants to get mad at me for my wide brush, I encourage you to take it up with op 1 1
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