Another Argument for Bills to Not Build a Billion $ Palace in B/Lo

[White Linen]

49 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

I wasn’t skipping over anything. When the example of other teams are used why do we go to what they charge in Dallas or NY? That’s not what we are talking about. We are talking about places like Indy, Cleveland and New Orleans. The studies have been done and the market can bear more than it currently is. Again, if you want my entire detail (including numbers associated with it) it’s all on here somewhere. I just really don’t feel like going through it again.

 

As some background (and without sounding like a know it all) I have a Master’s Degree is Sports Management and worked in pro sports for almost a decade. I worked in a situation where the team was sold twice and potentially going to be relocated. My thoughts as to what it it takes come from real world experience. I’ve been a part of the negotiations with the state, concessionaires, NBA, NBAPA, sponsors and fans.
 

I promise you that Buffalo can sustain a lot more than it currently is. With that being said, they aren’t going to build some new stadium and start charging Dallas prices. They are going to operate near the bottom of the league in revenues but the gap between them and others will be smaller. 

You need to think in terms of the CBA. The Kraft’s and Jones’ of the world are going to argue for LESS of the current revenue being shared. They will argue each team should be responsible for a greater share of the pie. “Why should we subsidize the Bills of the world?” When that inevitably happens, it will be imperative that the Bills are generating more revenue to remain competitive. 

 

Yeah but that's always going to be, it just will be with the new bottom of the league team(s).   They also realize that subsidizing the other teams is good for them too.  The highest revenue teams aren't doing anything better - they just complain from a different position and that will always continue.  

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

3 minutes ago, machine gun kelly said:

 

Hey Old Time, I don’t know exactly, but the Bucs games are more expensive as I go to both every year.  The experience is so different, then again, there is really nothing like going to New Era.  Parking is more expensive, the lots are not nearly as much fun,  the concessions are more, but more diverse.  The food outside of the stadiums is like a bunch of different kinds of food, and more economical, so when I take the boys, we typically between throwing the ball around, get some food and eat before we go into the stadium.  Just like it’s miserably cold in the winter up there, it absolutely awful going to a September or first 1/2 of October.  You have to put on so much sun block, and you never stop sweating.  I gave it up after the last Bucs, AZ game with my middle son.  For a number of reasons he’s followed them since the Pitt, AZ SB.  Now we always pick a fun game in November or December.  I highly recommend the next time the Bills are in Tampa.  Most people will give you some ribbing wearing one of my Bills jerseys, but it’s mostly in good fun.

 

I hope that helps a little.  I think they play in Buffalo in two years so most likely not for 6 years, and yes, I always root for the Bills win and have done so since 1993.  Any other team and I root for the Bucs as I have my first love in Buffalo, by second is Tampa.

 

 

 

...thanks bud....great help......median household income in Buffalo is $37K vs $52k for Tampa (if chart is accurate)....metro Tampa population is 3.068 million vs 1.134 million for Buffalo...so metro Tamps is three times bigger and 40% higher median income......thus a Bucs game being more expensive than a Bills game makes sense ("what the market will bear")....and Tampa has a far more substantial corporate presence...if both teams broke ground tomorrow on identical new stadiums, Tampa has the far better position of financial sustainability with assumed PSL's, increased tickets prices as well as all of the game amenities vs Buffalo.....Pegula has some real homework to do IMO.....

[machine gun kelly]

Nice take AFL.  It’s funny during the Dungy Gruden years prior to the real estate crash in 08 there was a sign on the wall saying 80,000 wait list for PSL’s, and a 10 year commitment.  Between liking to watch Bills games over Bucs, but my theater room had three TV’s so I would watch both.  The stadium is actually beautiful for when it was built, and was the model other teams copied for several years.

 

Now there are no PSL’s, the stadium maybe avg. 50,000 on any given week, but only seats 65,000 roughly.  I think you’d like it big guy.  Lots of people fly down for the game for the obvious reasons they can go to the beach for a couple of days, the young women are very attractive. To look at, and people overall are pretty fit.cmon down next time, and I’ll show you a couple of awesome steakhouses.

[NoSaint]

29 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

He got you too?!? Damn it!!

 

In terms of the more affluent fan it’s a bit of a gamble. They will certainly have to cater to them at some level. It will need to be insulated (in some ways) from the weather. They will have to have amenities that appeal to the wives (which believe it or not teams suck at). I have this girl that I’m kind of seeing and she has extremely high expectations and tastes. She would never make it as it currently is (even in the clubs). There are a segment of people that aren’t coming without their wives. You’d need to bring them in.

 

They will have to expand the geography (which has been happening for a while). It will be a challenge to be able to attract the “new fan” without alienating the base. The passion is so strong IMO that the base will be there even if it’s kicking and screaming. I tend to believe they will build more with the “new fan” and gamble that the base will be there. 

Wait... she has high standards, and... is with you? 
 

not to detour the thread but some things warrant discussion 

[Ethan in Cleveland]

 

Yes the NFL needs fans in the seats, but they having millions watching on TV. Making the TV experience better is far more important than the stadium experience.  

As for the stadium experience the best hope for Buffalo is a dome. Second best option is covered seats for the majority of the stadium.

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

14 minutes ago, machine gun kelly said:

Nice take AFL.  It’s funny during the Dungy Gruden years prior to the real estate crash in 08 there was a sign on the wall saying 80,000 wait list for PSL’s, and a 10 year commitment.  Between liking to watch Bills games over Bucs, but my theater room had three TV’s so I would watch both.  The stadium is actually beautiful for when it was built, and was the model other teams copied for several years.

 

Now there are no PSL’s, the stadium maybe avg. 50,000 on any given week, but only seats 65,000 roughly.  I think you’d like it big guy.  Lots of people fly down for the game for the obvious reasons they can go to the beach for a couple of days, the young women are very attractive. To look at, and people overall are pretty fit.cmon down next time, and I’ll show you a couple of awesome steakhouses.

 

 

...we took the kids to Florida for years...we started in Orlando, doing Disney and Universal (they transformed me into a roller coaster nut)....then we'd head down to Bradenton and stay with my brother-in-law and sister-in-law....my wife passed away in 2015 and her brother in 2016, so I take the kids and my daughter-in-law to Aruba now......I absolutely hated the Sunshine Skyway Bridge.......remember going over it in 1988......was such a chicken that if we flew out of Tampa, I'd take I-75 from Bradenton to go around it.........

[machine gun kelly]

13 minutes ago, Ethan in Portland said:

 

Yes the NFL needs fans in the seats, but they having millions watching on TV. Making the TV experience better is far more important than the stadium experience.  

As for the stadium experience the best hope for Buffalo is a dome. Second best option is covered seats for the majority of the stadium.

Ethan, I kind of like the Seattle layout as long as in our stadium, they do heat the seats as you mentioned.  You kind of get the best of both outside and inside.

AFL, I’m so sorry about you’re wife, and her brother.  Sounds like a tough couple of years.  Aruba is beautiful, and the Sunshine you get used to it like tHe one in Buffalo.  If I remember correctly, it’s the Skyway right?

[MJS]

3 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said:

The least valuable franchise in the league: https://www.forbes.com/sites/mikeozanian/2019/09/04/the-nfls-most-valuable-teams-2019-cowboys-lead-league-at-55-billion/amp/

30th in revenue:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/193553/revenue-of-national-football-league-teams-in-2010/

 

They charge significantly less than other markets. The stadium doesn’t generate the other revenue streams of others, etc..

 

I PROMISE, PROMISE, PROMISE, a new stadium or complete renovation ($500M+) will be happening. This is not something that “might” happen. 

That's from 2010. Bills were middle of the road in revenue last year.

[Lurker]

4 minutes ago, MJS said:

That's from 2010. Bills were middle of the road in revenue last year.

 

 

2019 ranking:    https://www.statista.com/statistics/193553/revenue-of-national-football-league-teams-in-2010/

[MJS]

1 minute ago, Lurker said:

 

 

2019 ranking:    https://www.statista.com/statistics/193553/revenue-of-national-football-league-teams-in-2010/

The URL reads 2010 for some reason.

[Lurker]

4 minutes ago, MJS said:

The URL reads 2010 for some reason.

 

Yeah, it's odd.  But I'm pretty sure the figures are for 2019...

 

Revenue of National Football League (NFL) teams 2019

Published by Christina Gough, Sep 9, 2019

 The statistic ranks all franchises of the National Football League according to revenue in 2019. The Dallas Cowboys generated 950 million U.S. dollars in revenue in that year, the most of all NFL teams.
 

Edited February 8, 2020 by Lurker

[stuvian]

I think we'll know what direction things are going in if the Jags pull up stakes for London Town

[Mr. WEO]

4 hours ago, T master said:

Despite the love for the game & the increase in fans in B/lo watching our team due to doing better with all the young talent Beane & company have brought in i believe the Pegs could use this information to argue that they don't want or need a new stadium in western NY . If you read the first line in this article it's a tell all for that, seeing as attendance is lower to do the stadium experience why would any team want to spend a Billion $ on a new stadium ?

 

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2020/02/08/rams-and-chargers-stadium-promises-big-breakthrough-with-4k-video/

 

Then there is the thought that the NFL doesn't really & truly care about what the fans think when it comes to decision making the only thing they care about is the $$ in this article it goes as far as saying they don't care about 2 very important pieces of the games success 1 being the fans 2 being the players, with out either of which the game wouldn't be as profitable as it is ! 

 

The 3rd & 4th paragraph in this explains a lot about what the NFL is all about . Please actually read them before coming to any conclusions ...

 

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2020/02/07/poll-shows-strong-fan-opposition-to-17-game-season/

 

If this continues to go as it has been going only the true Bills fans that have followed the team since the 90's will be in the stadium because the younger generation being lazy as they are & being less than their tougher relatives that raised them will rather sit in a warm living room watching the game than go to a nice brand new Billion $ stadium just because there is to much effort involved !!

 

Eventually if the viewership & revenues due to these things continue to head south the NFL may have to do what the WWE is doing & even the NFL to in some respects as far as they did with MNF in changing the games to a PPV type experience to off set the loss of fans actually going to the stadium .

 

Okay flame away Bills fans, I do know one thing for sure that no matter what the out come of scheduling or TV viewership Bills fans will always have their opinions & won't stop short of hanging some one like me in the square to burn me at the stake in the social media forum so have at it let the linching begin !!

 

--every fan who voted "NO" on an extra game will watch every extra game like all the rest.  Their position on this is dubious.

 

--"the NFL" is every owner, and of course they (like every MLB and NBA owner) cares mainly about the "$$".  Pegula didn't buy the Bills because he picked Buffalo to love.  He did it because it was probably THE best investment he could make with that much cash:  guaranteed high rate of appreciation, guaranteed income covering all player costs,  merchandise and ticket money from longstanding fan base.  Essentially, a massive annual revenue stream that requires virtually no superior performance at any level of the organization.

 

--players seem most ccerned about "player safety" after they retire.  They spend their playing days delivering (or trying to avoid) cheap shots, late hits, endless intentional helmet to helmet hits.  

 

--the reps from the NFLPA have been negotiating to this point.....with 17 games firmly on the table.  They haven't taken it off.  So go beef to them.

 

--if Pegula thinks that a new or refurbished stadium will make him money, he'll do it.  

[stuvian]

3 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said:

- I think you’ll see some PSL’s (but don’t think SF think Minnesota). They will be mostly in like the $500 range. There will be some higher but we aren’t talking $100k PSLs. 
 

- Additionally, they can build out around the stadium like New England. The Bills will own/control some bars and restaurants in the area and can generate revenue that way (whether directly or indirectly). They can do membership type clubs within the stadium (kind of like the Harbor Club). 

- They can create revenue generating assets. When we renegotiated our state deal here in New Orleans they basically offered us a check. What we countered with were some infrastructure assets that we could monetize. We felt that was a better long-term strategy. That’s why you see the video boards on the outside of the arena in NOLA. You are trying to create “things” to sell to sponsors.
 

- You’d also have a “clean slate” with a new stadium. New Era is a weird situation where the best amenities are not tied to the best locations. In a new stadium you can pair the best locations with the best amenities to drive revenue. Think about the “Legends Club” in Yankee Stadium (obviously with lower prices). If you want to sit 1st row behind home plate, you get an open bar, 5 star buffet, etc.. That’s better than having to pick elite amenities or elite location. You can scale it out.

 

These are just a few ways off the top of my head but there are tons and tons more. 

 

 

add a condo development to the shopping and you'll have sustainable financing

[Ethan in Cleveland]

1 hour ago, machine gun kelly said:

Ethan, I kind of like the Seattle layout as long as in our stadium, they do heat the seats as you mentioned.  You kind of get the best of both outside and inside.

AFL, I’m so sorry about you’re wife, and her brother.  Sounds like a tough couple of years.  Aruba is beautiful, and the Sunshine you get used to it like tHe one in Buffalo.  If I remember correctly, it’s the Skyway right?

Seattle would be a great stadium to copy

[Beast]

4 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said:

The least valuable franchise in the league: https://www.forbes.com/sites/mikeozanian/2019/09/04/the-nfls-most-valuable-teams-2019-cowboys-lead-league-at-55-billion/amp/

30th in revenue:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/193553/revenue-of-national-football-league-teams-in-2010/

 

They charge significantly less than other markets. The stadium doesn’t generate the other revenue streams of others, etc..

 

I PROMISE, PROMISE, PROMISE, a new stadium or complete renovation ($500M+) will be happening. This is not something that “might” happen. 

I think it’s a renovation with what they have done to the locker rooms and the state of art workout facility built....and they will expect the County and State  to chip in a huge portion of the cost.

 

My bet is the upper decks are torn off and a smaller upper deck replaces it that wraps around the stadium in a horseshoe with the admin building being the “open end”. A huge scoreboard will be on top of that building.

Edited February 8, 2020 by Binghamton Beast

[Don Otreply]

1 hour ago, MJS said:

That's from 2010. Bills were middle of the road in revenue last year.

I just read we are 18th in the league revenue wise, that puts a bunch of teams below us. 

[I'm Spartacus]

3 hours ago, JustWinPlease said:

They need a new stadium and it needs to be put downtown.

 

I think there are going to demolish the Perry Street Projects and put a new stadium there.

It's right on the outskirts of the city, and close to Canal Side. Has perfect access to the 190 north or south, plus the skyway.

We'll see....

[machine gun kelly]

Those projects have so much space, right near where the Buffalo News building sits.  Good points on the spacing. Hotels, restaurants, pubs and so on.  I would bet it would only be 65,000 seats like most stadiums these days.  There is less wind downtown, and less snow.  When I worked my college job at the News, I remember driving and right after the skyway, I can’t tell you how many times, I would over the Father Baker, and it would be a wall of snow.  The Pegulas could build a bunch of these hotels and restaurants, etc. as another revenue stream.

[PromoTheRobot]

2 hours ago, Ethan in Portland said:

Seattle would be a great stadium to copy

 

Actually the Vikings stadium is ideal. Fixed glass roof with walls that open.