Another Argument for Bills to Not Build a Billion $ Palace in B/Lo

[Mr. WEO]

22 minutes ago, apuszczalowski said:

AT&T in Dallas and Met Life in NY don't have to be multi use because they are in some of the largest cities in the country and can afford to build stadiums that can be used less. The reason people bring it up for places like Buffalo is because that what makes it a little more feasible and economical for the area and taxpayer money to have something that can be used for more then football. The convention centre is brought up for the facility to double as a convention centre also during the rest of the year, then Buffalo doesn't have to worry about picking and choosing one or the other to pay for.

 

If Buffalo/Erie county wants a new convention center to add to the one they already have (and which is not fully booked), they are free to do so.  It would still leave the stadium empty for the vast majority of the year....because there simply are not enough events that require a stadium venue.  Stadiums don't "double as conventions centers" very often. At Lucas Oil, the convention center  is  a different but connected facility.

 

So why would Pegula want to contribute to a convention center attached to his stadium---or have it linked at all to a handout for his stadium?  The added cost would doom his request.

 

Why would Erie/Buffalo/NYS want to pony up for another convention center AND a chunk of the stadium cost?  To host a few more (smaller) convention events that the current convention center may be missing out on?

 

This makes little sense.

 

Also, "Dallas" and NYC (NJ?) didn't build those stadiums.

[SoCal Deek]

Why is this even a debate?  It all comes down to available money. The current stadium, in its current configuration HAS to be either altered or replaced within the next five years. It will either be renovated in Orchard Park or rebuilt downtown. The latter option will cost over twice as much. If the money isn't there they will choose the former...and then sell the idea as the preferred option. Just enjoy the ride.

[Mr. WEO]

20 minutes ago, buffalobillsfootball said:

 

Maximizing tax dollar spend - killing two birds with one stone.

 

The convention center is not the stadium.  it is a separate building.  You have already concluded that Buffalo can't get both a stadium and convention center, so how would be "killing two birds with one stone"if the Bills new stadium had no associated convention center?

Just now, SoCal Deek said:

Why is this even a debate?  It all comes down to available money. The current stadium, in its current configuration HAS to be either altered or replaced within the next five years. It will either be renovated in Orchard Park or rebuilt downtown. The latter option will cost over twice as much. If the money isn't there they will choose the former...and then sell the idea as the preferred option. Just enjoy the ride.

 

He has the money; it's there..

[SoCal Deek]

1 minute ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

The convention center is not the stadium.  it is a separate building.  You have already concluded that Buffalo can't get both a stadium and convention center, so how would be "killing two birds with one stone"if the Bills new stadium had no associated convention center?

A smart design would be to incorporate both facilities in one project with shared parking, concourse support, and service requirements. But....there may not be the money to build them both at the same time.

[buffalobillsfootball]

2 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

The convention center is not the stadium.  it is a separate building.  You have already concluded that Buffalo can't get both a stadium and convention center, so how would be "killing two birds with one stone"if the Bills new stadium had no associated convention center?

 

I don't care if they build a new convention center with a new stadium downtown or not - the benefits of putting the stadium downtown outweighs anything they do in OP.

[SoCal Deek]

1 minute ago, buffalobillsfootball said:

 

I don't care if they build a new convention center with a new stadium downtown or not - the benefits of putting the stadium downtown outweighs anything they do in OP.

It will not come down to 'benefits'. It will come down to available capital.

[Mr. WEO]

4 minutes ago, buffalobillsfootball said:

 

I don't care if they build a new convention center with a new stadium downtown or not - the benefits of putting the stadium downtown outweighs anything they do in OP.

 

There's no evidence that that is true, but you are free to believe it.

[Mr. WEO]

6 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

A smart design would be to incorporate both facilities in one project with shared parking, concourse support, and service requirements. But....there may not be the money to build them both at the same time.

 

But that would mean the public would be on the hook for far more than just stadium money.  They would have to build another convention center as well.

 

In the end, they would have a massive financial commitment to an underbooked convention (2 of them now) center and part of a football stadium they would not own.

 

That would be a very bad use of public funds.  It has been proven over and over that financing stadiums and adding convention center square footage are horrible public investments.  This would be the daily double of waste.

 

Let Pegula build the stadium downtown...or wherever he wants.  Maybe toss him a few exit ramps or whatnot if needed for access.  But that's it. 

 

 

 

 

 

[buffalobillsfootball]

1 hour ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

There's no evidence that that is true, but you are free to believe it.

 

I'm sorry, I will just discount all the road games I have attended throughout the years and let you make up my mind.

 

Help me out here wise one - are we saving all the land in Buffalo for all these companies that are lining up to build in Buffalo?  

 

Do we not have blown out corners all throughout the central business district - sitting there as gravel parking lots - just waiting to be developed?

 

You think developing in area near the casino - is going to destroy our future and vitality of Buffalo?

 

Buffalo needs to build from the core out - we cannot keep sprawling our resources outside the city.  We need to capitalize on these opportunities - and not sit here in fear that we will no longer be able to bash our bodies into tables in OP.

 

 

Edited February 12, 2020 by buffalobillsfootball

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

1 hour ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

The convention center is not the stadium.  it is a separate building.  You have already concluded that Buffalo can't get both a stadium and convention center, so how would be "killing two birds with one stone"if the Bills new stadium had no associated convention center?

 

He has the money; it's there..

 

 

...who?...Pegula or Big Fredo?............

[Saxum]

5 hours ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

WEO isn't a fan, he's our resident troll.

 

you are insulting trolls, sounds not easy to do but you did it.

4 hours ago, buffalobillsfootball said:

WE KNOW THE CITY ITSELF can take on this burden on its own; MOST CITIES CAN'T no matter how wealthy or poor the area is... You think Detroit residents paid exclusively for FORD Field or the new Red Wings arena?

 

Very confusing: Buffalo CAN but most cities CAN'T?  

I think if they move stadium downtown Erie County will not contribute other allowing Bills to use stadium as training facility since they have no other client for it.

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

4 hours ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

I think it's going in the north west part of Conway Park by Chicago and Miami Streets.

Pedestrian bridge to link to Riverworks and Parking in the Perry Projects with reconfigured Thruway exchanges to get in and out quick.

A stadium station for rapid transit completes the plan.

 

I know the people in Buffalo/Erie County/NY State got a lot to work out but I think Terry and Kim get it done.

A "Buffalo Theme" design like you and others have been talking about would be cool.

 

If they can't get this to work they will go with Plan B at New Era.

 

 

 

 

 

Some sort of transportation from other areas would be huge.  Metro rail gets you like... 15-20 minute walk away - which isn't really ideal.  Buses with traffic down there... ubers... some semblence of tailgaiting - its all tough.  Good thing Pegulas have a strong relationship with local government.  

[SoCal Deek]

2 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

But that would mean the public would be on the hook for far more than just stadium money.  They would have to build another convention center as well.

 

In the end, they would have a massive financial commitment to an underbooked convention (2 of them now) center and part of a football stadium they would not own.

 

That would be a very bad use of public funds.  It has been proven over and over that financing stadiums and adding convention center square footage are horrible public investments.  This would be the daily double of waste.

 

Let Pegula build the stadium downtown...or wherever he wants.  Maybe toss him a few exit ramps or whatnot if needed for access.  But that's it. 

 

 

 

 

 

I think you misunderstood me. I'm not 'voting' for any particular design solution. I'm only saying that if you are going to build two venues, whoever is footing the bill would be better served by building them on the same site at the same time so you only have to build supporting infrastructure once.

[Mr. WEO]

3 hours ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

 

 

...who?...Pegula or Big Fredo?............

 

 

Pegula for sure.  

1 hour ago, SoCal Deek said:

I think you misunderstood me. I'm not 'voting' for any particular design solution. I'm only saying that if you are going to build two venues, whoever is footing the bill would be better served by building them on the same site at the same time so you only have to build supporting infrastructure once.

 

 

True but both aren't necessary nor desirable for either party paying.

3 hours ago, buffalobillsfootball said:

 

I'm sorry, I will just discount all the road games I have attended throughout the years and let you make up my mind.

 

Help me out here wise one - are we saving all the land in Buffalo for all these companies that are lining up to build in Buffalo?  

 

Do we not have blown out corners all throughout the central business district - sitting there as gravel parking lots - just waiting to be developed?

 

You think developing in area near the casino - is going to destroy our future and vitality of Buffalo?

 

Buffalo needs to build from the core out - we cannot keep sprawling our resources outside the city.  We need to capitalize on these opportunities - and not sit here in fear that we will no longer be able to bash our bodies into tables in OP.

 

 

 

Not sure what you are talking about at this point.

 

Who's "we"?

 

 

[Jrb1979]

I'm guessing the biggest reason so many of you don't want it downtown is the fear of limiting tailgating. Having tailgating in Bills owned lots only helps in limiting the table slamming and drunken behavior. It also makes it that the Bills get all the profits from tailgating. 

[The Frankish Reich]

On 2/9/2020 at 2:53 PM, Buffalo716 said:

That's totally an opinion and urban stadiums have not shown to bring an uptick in the economy

 

I would never NEVER NEVERRRR bar hop around the city pre gaming for a Bills game and lots won't. First the new ticket prices in the stadium will be crazy and you're going to be spending buckoo bucks, bar hopping around the city pre gaming would make it a ludicrously expensive day

 

And the majority of buffalonians are hard working paycheck to paycheck people. They will not spend that kind of money

 

Buffalo has something 99% of NFL franchises don't have , a college atmosphere and camaraderie... That all goes away if it's downtown

 

I live in the city, we don't need a stadium downtown

I mean, I know Bills tailgaters have a rep, but even in bars you can drink a helluva lot of beer for 50 bucks.

[Buffalo716]

1 hour ago, The Frankish Reich said:

I mean, I know Bills tailgaters have a rep, but even in bars you can drink a helluva lot of beer for 50 bucks.

I'm not a huge drinker and when I drink I drink whiskey but 50 bucks can definitely get you 4-5 crown and cokes downtown which is decent

 

But I can get 3 bottles at the liquor store for that price and supply the whole tailgate

 

Then you gotta buy food and drinks for the family, parking, etc and the cost definitely adds up

 

I also made a point how 20k downtown and the streets are packed and You can hardly get to the bar. 70k would be insane

[Augie]

25 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

I'm not a huge drinker and when I drink I drink whiskey but 50 bucks can definitely get you 4-5 crown and cokes downtown which is decent

 

But I can get 3 bottles at the liquor store for that price and supply the whole tailgate

 

Then you gotta buy food and drinks for the family, parking, etc and the cost definitely adds up

 

I also made a point how 20k downtown and the streets are packed and You can hardly get to the bar. 70k would be insane

 

I think you need to accept that part of the reason for the move is to generate more income for the team. Yes, it will probably be more expensive in many cases. There will be a way to do it on a budget, but it will be harder not to share more cash with the Bills in some way. 

 

We have some close friends living in Jacksonville with 6-8 season tickets. Four of those seats are outdoors, but with access to a club area with free beer/wine and food (liquor is extra). That was where we did our “tailgating”.  This is not steamed hot dogs, They have carving stations and I enjoyed the sautéed sea bass. Those tickets were $380 about 15-20 years ago, and that area was full. This is Jacksonville!  

 

It will not be cheaper, but there will be affordable options if you know what you’re doing. That’s just the way I see it. Time will tell. 

[eanyills]

6 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

Why would Erie/Buffalo/NYS want to pony up for another convention center AND a chunk of the stadium cost?  To host a few more (smaller) convention events that the current convention center may be missing out on?

 

This makes little sense.

Re: Convention Center

 

I know for a fact that the city put feelers out to local developers in regards to a new convention center. There was never an official RFP issued but a bigger and modernized convention center is on the city’s radar.

 

Now, the city’s broke and I’m not sure how high up a new convention center is on the state’s priority list of things to help Buffalo out with considering the looming stadium issue and Metro Rail expansion but it’s definitely something local leadership is pursuing on some level.

 

That said, there’s a lot of things that the city has and still is “pursuing” that never got off the ground. The city’s been sitting on the Mohawk Ramp RFP for like three years now so nothing comes quickly in this city.

 

So I’m not saying it’s a good idea or that it’s going to ever happen, just that the city has previously expressed interest in getting a new convention center built.

Edited February 13, 2020 by eanyills

[K-9]

Regarding the convention center, Buffalo should tear down that abomination currently in place. That monstrosity ruined that great vista up Genesee St. from Niagara Square and that corrugated concrete look has always been fugly.