Another Argument for Bills to Not Build a Billion $ Palace in B/Lo

[Buffalo716]

2 hours ago, Augie said:

 

That’s alright, YOU don’t have to come up with the plan. I think somebody will be able to find a mix of tailgating and bars/restaurants to make it work. They certainly know this is an issue, and also an opportunity to make more money. 

 

Again, I don’t care where they play as long as it’s still in WNY. I’m not afraid of the inevitable change, whether it be in OP or downtown. Smart people are working on this. 

Well atleast we can always have a civil talk, in the end I agree with you 

 

BUT

 

The 1 point I've been trying to make this whole time is HOW IMPOVERISHED BUFFALO IS. If people only know the area cus they only go to a few Bills game a year they don't get a real sense of what the City really is

 

Over 30% poverty rate and close to a 50% Child poverty rate. The city is super impoverished and they don't need and can't handle that burden

 

If pegula ponys up 100% awesome... But the city can't foot it, taxes can't go up for these people who aren't as lucky as us

 

And I've been a Buffalonian my whole life just blessed

[apuszczalowski]

2 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

Well atleast we can always have a civil talk, in the end I agree with you 

 

BUT

 

The 1 point I've been trying to make this whole time is HOW IMPOVERISHED BUFFALO IS. If people only know the area cus they only go to a few Bills game a year they don't get a real sense of what the City really is

 

Over 30% poverty rate and close to a 50% Child poverty rate. The city is super impoverished and they don't need and can't handle that burden

 

If pegula ponys up 100% awesome... But the city can't foot it, taxes can't go up for these people who aren't as lucky as us

 

And I've been a Buffalonian my whole life just blessed

Then it's simple, the area cannot afford the luxury of having an NFL franchise.

 

Maybe they can get an XFL franchise instead of the league takes off.

[Buffalo716]

19 minutes ago, buffalobillsfootball said:

 

Buffalo will never have the biggest and most luxurious - those regions that can support that don't need to be multi-use. But a region like WNY has to make the most of their tax dollars for luxuries such as Stadiums... Convention Centers, etc.  WNY will not get tax dollars for BOTH in our lifetime.

 

And regarding other successful multi use stadium convention centers - look no further than Lucas Oil Stadium and Convention Center. Their combined stadium has a TON of events planned - check them out here: https://www.icclos.com/upcoming-events/ or here

 

It's ok Mr WEO - we get it - you're a tailgating fan - not a BILLS fan.

 

Maybe you don't understand that Buffalo is one of the most impoverished places in the country

 

30% poverty Rate in the city and close to 50% child poverty rate. They are struggling bad. They don't need any more taxes or for cost of living to go up

 

People in the burbs and out of state want it downtown cus it's a new shiny thing..   people who are struggling in the city , the majority, don't want to become homeless

 

You , me and mostly everybody here is doing well... That's not the majority of the city

2 minutes ago, apuszczalowski said:

Then it's simple, the area cannot afford the luxury of having an NFL franchise.

 

Maybe they can get an XFL franchise instead of the league takes off.

There are hundreds of thousands of people in the burbs and OP is DRASTICALLY different than Buffalo

@Boatdrinks

 

Idk what is so confusing? You don't think buffalo isn't super impoverished?

 

I made up no statistics

[buffalobillsfootball]

2 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

Maybe you don't understand that Buffalo is one of the most impoverished places in the country

 

30% poverty Rate in the city and close to 50% child poverty rate. They are struggling bad. They don't need any more taxes or for cost of living to go up

 

People in the burbs and out of state want it downtown cus it's a new shiny thing..   people who are struggling in the city , the majority, don't want to become homeless

 

You , me and mostly everybody here is doing well... That's not the majority of the city

 

I'm just curious - how old are you and what do you do for a living?  You fail take a holistic approach to how this thing is going to get funded.

 

If you think City residents are going to get saddled paying for ALL of this - you're kidding yourself.  

 

Most of the public component will come from the State and the County - and we should also look to the NY Power Authority for funds, as well.

 

WE KNOW THE CITY ITSELF can take on this burden on its own; MOST CITIES CAN'T no matter how wealthy or poor the area is... You think Detroit residents paid exclusively for FORD Field or the new Red Wings arena?

 

smh

 

 

[Boatdrinks]

3 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

Maybe you don't understand that Buffalo is one of the most impoverished places in the country

 

30% poverty Rate in the city and close to 50% child poverty rate. They are struggling bad. They don't need any more taxes or for cost of living to go up

 

People in the burbs and out of state want it downtown cus it's a new shiny thing..   people who are struggling in the city , the majority, don't want to become homeless

 

You , me and mostly everybody here is doing well... That's not the majority of the city

Have you been in the city lately ? I live downtown and it’s far from impoverished here. Are there impoverished areas in the city ? Sure, but those folks probably aren’t paying property taxes. That’s what your numbers reflect. Those numbers aren’t a reflection of people living in the city that are doing well. I also don’t see many people who live in my general area of the city that have children. They’d probably move to the ‘burbs or South Buffalo if they did. You have to look at what numbers really mean. 

[Buffalo716]

11 minutes ago, buffalobillsfootball said:

 

I'm just curious - how old are you and what do you do for a living?  You fail take a holistic approach to how this thing is going to get funded.

 

If you think City residents are going to get saddled paying for ALL of this - you're kidding yourself.  

 

Most of the public component will come from the State and the County - and we should also look to the NY Power Authority for funds, as well.

 

WE KNOW THE CITY ITSELF can take on this burden on its own; MOST CITIES CAN'T no matter how wealthy or poor the area is... You think Detroit residents paid exclusively for FORD Field or the new Red Wings arena?

 

smh

 

 

I've been a football coach and player and scout for 30 years I don't do math

 

And I never said they would have to pay it all. That's ludicrous

 

And I care about people . I walk the streets of the easy side and west side and see how much they struggle, I don't want them to have to pony up anything.. that's my point

 

And I would assume their taxes would go up

 

And it's funny you come in this thread pointing fingers and saying who is a real bills fan or just likes to tailgate lol like you can make that call

 

My family has had seasons for for like 40 years, I spend thousands and thousands on the Bills each year and they mean everything to me.. I would assume the majority feel the same seeing they are ON A BILLS FORUM

8 minutes ago, Boatdrinks said:

Have you been in the city lately ? I live downtown and it’s far from impoverished here. Are there impoverished areas in the city ? Sure, but those folks probably aren’t paying property taxes. That’s what your numbers reflect. Those numbers aren’t a reflection of people living in the city that are doing well. I also don’t see many people who live in my general area of the city that have children. They’d probably move to the ‘burbs or South Buffalo if they did. You have to look at what numbers really mean. 

Downtown is gorgeous. I have a house on the Eastside

 

I see poverty everyday and I don't like it

 

It sounds like you live in Allentown or off Elmwood

Edited February 12, 2020 by Buffalo716

[Boatdrinks]

4 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

I've been a football coach and player and scout for 30 years I don't do math

 

And I never said they would have to pay it all. That's ludicrous

 

And I care about people . I walk the streets of the easy side and west side and see how much they struggle, I don't want them to have to pony up anything.. that's my point

 

And I would assume their taxes would go up

Downtown is gorgeous. I have a house on the Eastside

 

I see poverty everyday and I don't like it

These things get paid for in a certain way. Other NFL cities have already done this. Buffalo is not going to reinvent the wheel here when it comes to how stadiums get built. 

[ColoradoBills]

23 hours ago, dneveu said:

 

Yep - Major infrastructure changes will need to take place... Lot of public money will have to be poured into this whether the pegulas are buying the stadium or not.  I do think since PSLs probably don't work here to the extent they need to, public money will get put into it.  

 

Conway park would be my pick?  Build some moveable bridges, and you have a ton of parking.  Rip down the projects and you have even more - plus what you have for sabres games etc.  I would assume a garage is on the table?  Maybe another hotel - near the casino?  There is a lot to think about there.

 

I think it's going in the north west part of Conway Park by Chicago and Miami Streets.

Pedestrian bridge to link to Riverworks and Parking in the Perry Projects with reconfigured Thruway exchanges to get in and out quick.

A stadium station for rapid transit completes the plan.

 

I know the people in Buffalo/Erie County/NY State got a lot to work out but I think Terry and Kim get it done.

A "Buffalo Theme" design like you and others have been talking about would be cool.

 

If they can't get this to work they will go with Plan B at New Era.

 

 

 

 

Edited February 12, 2020 by ColoradoBills

[apuszczalowski]

30 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

There are hundreds of thousands of people in the burbs and OP is DRASTICALLY different than Buffalo

@Boatdrinks

 

Idk what is so confusing? You don't think buffalo isn't super impoverished?

 

I made up no statistics

I never said you made anything up. It doesn't matter of the stadium is in OP or Downtown, the funding will still be from the same sources. The poor people downtown will still be paying the same whether its built next to the arena or next to New Era (or New Era is renovated). 

 

You keep bringing up how poor Buffalo is, and I'm not disputing any of that, but of it's as poor as you say and they can't afford a new or highly renovated stadium, then unfortunately they can afford the luxury of being the home of an NFL franchise.

 

You know what could help out the poor people in Buffalo? The possible property value increase they could see of having a new stadium and downtown redevelopment that could come from it.

[Buffalo716]

28 minutes ago, apuszczalowski said:

I never said you made anything up. It doesn't matter of the stadium is in OP or Downtown, the funding will still be from the same sources. The poor people downtown will still be paying the same whether its built next to the arena or next to New Era (or New Era is renovated). 

 

You keep bringing up how poor Buffalo is, and I'm not disputing any of that, but of it's as poor as you say and they can't afford a new or highly renovated stadium, then unfortunately they can afford the luxury of being the home of an NFL franchise.

 

You know what could help out the poor people in Buffalo? The possible property value increase they could see of having a new stadium and downtown redevelopment that could come from it.

I wasnt referring to you when I said that  I made Nothing up

 

Yes thats hypothetically true. But gentrification also pushes more people out of neighborhoods than it does help them

 

The rich people of Buffalo will buy up that property from the ones struggling

 

And I assume there will be state , county taxes and the more pegula spends the less taxpayers do. And again I've said numerous times that I only am speaking for the poor that I know exist

 

Deep poverty is making less than 10k a year which is hardly enough to live on. Of the households in the buffalo Niagara region almost 50% of the deep poverty is in the city of Buffalo

 

The 2015 upgrades cost Erie county tax payers 108 dollars per year per household.  They footed 100 of 130 million dollars.

 

If taxpayers pay 75% on a 700 million to 1 billion dollar stadium we will pay about 700-800 per year to foot it

 

Not crazy much for people not struggling but imagine having to foot 800 per year when you make 6k. I worry about people

Edited February 12, 2020 by Buffalo716

[buffalobillsfootball]

43 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

I wasnt referring to you when I said that  I made Nothing up

 

Yes thats hypothetically true. But gentrification also pushes more people out of neighborhoods than it does help them

 

The rich people of Buffalo will buy up that property from the ones struggling

 

And I assume there will be state , county taxes and the more pegula spends the less taxpayers do. And again I've said numerous times that I only am speaking for the poor that I know exist

 

Deep poverty is making less than 10k a year which is hardly enough to live on. Of the households in the buffalo Niagara region almost 50% of the deep poverty is in the city of Buffalo

 

The 2015 upgrades cost Erie county tax payers 108 dollars per year per household.  They footed 100 of 130 million dollars.

 

If taxpayers pay 75% on a 700 million to 1 billion dollar stadium we will pay about 700-800 per year to foot it

 

Not crazy much for people not struggling but imagine having to foot 800 per year when you make 6k. I worry about people

 

So - the poor will pay the same whether the team builds all new in OP,  Buffalo or renovates.  So, what you are saying is - we shouldn't have a team at all?  

 

That's all I hear you saying...

[Mr. WEO]

2 hours ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

WEO isn't a fan, he's our resident troll.

 

Nah, I only "troll" out poorly thought out posts....

[Buffalo716]

2 minutes ago, buffalobillsfootball said:

 

So - the poor will pay the same whether the team builds all new in OP,  Buffalo or renovates.  So, what you are saying is - we shouldn't have a team at all?  

 

That's all I hear you saying...

No I'm saying pegula needs to foot 70% because that COULD REVITALIZE Buffalo because tax payers didn't foot the majority

 

It can be 500 million in OP or 1 billion downtown that is a drastic difference. 

 

As I've said REPEATEDLY.  I'm a die hard bills fan, I ONLY want them in Buffalo. My family has been season ticket holders for 2 generations and I spend thousands upon thousands upon thousands on our bills

 

My favorite season in Buffalo? Not summer or fall... bills season

 

If Pegula puts 75% up it can go anywhere he wants, it won't kill me at the end of the day

 

If taxpayers have to foot 75% there is a HUGE difference between a billion dollar stadium downtown and a 500-600k stadium in OP

 

If it's the latter OP makes sense

[buffalobillsfootball]

8 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

No I'm saying pegula needs to foot 70% because that COULD REVITALIZE Buffalo because tax payers didn't foot the majority

 

It can be 500 million in OP or 1 billion downtown that is a drastic difference. 

 

As I've said REPEATEDLY.  I'm a die hard bills fan, I ONLY want them in Buffalo. My family has been season ticket holders for 2 generations and I spend thousands upon thousands upon thousands on our bills

 

My favorite season in Buffalo? Not summer or fall... bills season

 

If Pegula puts 75% up it can go anywhere he wants, it won't kill me at the end of the day

 

If taxpayers have to foot 75% there is a HUGE difference between a billion dollar stadium downtown and a 500-600k stadium in OP

 

If it's the latter OP makes sense

 

I can't imagine tax payers footing 75% of any related stadium related tab...

[Augie]

2 hours ago, Buffalo716 said:

Well atleast we can always have a civil talk, in the end I agree with you 

 

BUT

 

The 1 point I've been trying to make this whole time is HOW IMPOVERISHED BUFFALO IS. If people only know the area cus they only go to a few Bills game a year they don't get a real sense of what the City really is

 

Over 30% poverty rate and close to a 50% Child poverty rate. The city is super impoverished and they don't need and can't handle that burden

 

If pegula ponys up 100% awesome... But the city can't foot it, taxes can't go up for these people who aren't as lucky as us

 

And I've been a Buffalonian my whole life just blessed

 

I get it. I went to St Joes and every once in a while they do a road show traveling around inviting alumni to events hoping for donations. They include a lot of statistics that are rather shocking regarding poverty rates and the need for scholarship money. It’s real, I know. 

 

However, similar financial situations exist around the country. There will be a mix of funding that will mean  some financial pain for everybody. Exactly how that plays out, we’ll just have to wait and see. 

 

 

.

Edited February 12, 2020 by Augie

[Buffalo716]

10 minutes ago, buffalobillsfootball said:

 

I can't imagine tax payers footing 75% of any related stadium related tab...

We taxpayers footed like 80% of the refurb 8 years ago

 

 

Edited February 12, 2020 by Buffalo716

[Mr. WEO]

2 hours ago, buffalobillsfootball said:

 

Buffalo will never have the biggest and most luxurious - those regions that can support that don't need to be multi-use. But a region like WNY has to make the most of their tax dollars for luxuries such as Stadiums... Convention Centers, etc.  WNY will not get tax dollars for BOTH in our lifetime.

 

And regarding other successful multi use stadium convention centers - look no further than Lucas Oil Stadium and Convention Center. Their combined stadium has a TON of events planned - check them out here: https://www.icclos.com/upcoming-events/ or here

 

It's ok Mr WEO - we get it - you're a tailgating fan - not a BILLS fan.

 

 

Who doesn't like tailgating?  And what does that have to do with this conversation?

 

If you clicked on those events, you will see that very few of them is actually in the stadium, the rest are in the convention center.  Since you have eliminated the possibility of both an stadium and a convention center for Buffalo, then almost all of those events would not take place in the venue (stadium).

 

So I will ask you again--look at the barely filled schedules of ATT in Dallas and MetLife stadiums and you'll see that a stadium in Buffalo will hardly be used other than for Bills games. 

 

But let's forget all of that...the point of this thread is to discuss whether "the League" will "force" the Bills to build a new stadium.  So indeed, let us look at Lucas Oil Stadium.  New place, nice stadium.  Has all the appropriate amenities and luxuries.  Despite this, it would be 5 more years before the Colts revenue cracked the 300 million mark.  Average ticket price? $94.  Total team revenue?  $393 million.  All pretty much the same as the Bills.  Both at or near the NFL bottom.

 

So what do the Colts do at this point to get out of their perennial spot in the revenue basement?  ANd why would anyone think the outcome would be different in a smaller, less affluent town like Buffalo if they had a new stadium?

 

 

[Buffalo716]

4 minutes ago, Augie said:

 

I get it. I went to St Joes and every once in a while they do a road show traveling around inviting alumni to events hoping for donations. They include a lot of statistics that are rather shocking regarding poverty rates and the need for scholarship money. It’s real, I know. 

 

However, similar financial situations exist around the country. There will be a mix of funding that will mean  some financial pain for everybody. Exactly how that plays out, we’ll just have to wait and see. 

 

 

.

Thanks again for civility

 

Rare in the thread, just alot of insults being thrown

[apuszczalowski]

11 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

Who doesn't like tailgating?  And what does that have to do with this conversation?

 

If you clicked on those events, you will see that very few of them is actually in the stadium, the rest are in the convention center.  Since you have eliminated the possibility of both an stadium and a convention center for Buffalo, then almost all of those events would not take place in the venue (stadium).

 

So I will ask you again--look at the barely filled schedules of ATT in Dallas and MetLife stadiums and you'll see that a stadium in Buffalo will hardly be used other than for Bills games. 

 

But let's forget all of that...the point of this thread is to discuss whether "the League" will "force" the Bills to build a new stadium.  So indeed, let us look at Lucas Oil Stadium.  New place, nice stadium.  Has all the appropriate amenities and luxuries.  Despite this, it would be 5 more years before the Colts revenue cracked the 300 million mark.  Average ticket price? $94.  Total team revenue?  $393 million.  All pretty much the same as the Bills.  Both at or near the NFL bottom.

 

So what do the Colts do at this point to get out of their perennial spot in the revenue basement?  ANd why would anyone think the outcome would be different in a smaller, less affluent town like Buffalo if they had a new stadium?

 

 

AT&T in Dallas and Met Life in NY don't have to be multi use because they are in some of the largest cities in the country and can afford to build stadiums that can be used less. The reason people bring it up for places like Buffalo is because that what makes it a little more feasible and economical for the area and taxpayer money to have something that can be used for more then football. The convention centre is brought up for the facility to double as a convention centre also during the rest of the year, then Buffalo doesn't have to worry about picking and choosing one or the other to pay for.

[buffalobillsfootball]

5 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

Who doesn't like tailgating?  And what does that have to do with this conversation?

 

If you clicked on those events, you will see that very few of them is actually in the stadium, the rest are in the convention center.  Since you have eliminated the possibility of both an stadium and a convention center for Buffalo, then almost all of those events would not take place in the venue (stadium).

 

So I will ask you again--look at the barely filled schedules of ATT in Dallas and MetLife stadiums and you'll see that a stadium in Buffalo will hardly be used other than for Bills games. 

 

But let's forget all of that...the point of this thread is to discuss whether "the League" will "force" the Bills to build a new stadium.  So indeed, let us look at Lucas Oil Stadium.  New place, nice stadium.  Has all the appropriate amenities and luxuries.  Despite this, it would be 5 more years before the Colts revenue cracked the 300 million mark.  Average ticket price? $94.  Total team revenue?  $393 million.  All pretty much the same as the Bills.  Both at or near the NFL bottom.

 

So what do the Colts do at this point to get out of their perennial spot in the revenue basement?  ANd why would anyone think the outcome would be different in a smaller, less affluent town like Buffalo if they had a new stadium?

 

 

 

Maximizing tax dollar spend - killing two birds with one stone.