Another Argument for Bills to Not Build a Billion $ Palace in B/Lo

[T master]

Despite the love for the game & the increase in fans in B/lo watching our team due to doing better with all the young talent Beane & company have brought in i believe the Pegs could use this information to argue that they don't want or need a new stadium in western NY . If you read the first line in this article it's a tell all for that, seeing as attendance is lower to do the stadium experience why would any team want to spend a Billion $ on a new stadium ?

 

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2020/02/08/rams-and-chargers-stadium-promises-big-breakthrough-with-4k-video/

 

Then there is the thought that the NFL doesn't really & truly care about what the fans think when it comes to decision making the only thing they care about is the $$ in this article it goes as far as saying they don't care about 2 very important pieces of the games success 1 being the fans 2 being the players, with out either of which the game wouldn't be as profitable as it is ! 

 

The 3rd & 4th paragraph in this explains a lot about what the NFL is all about . Please actually read them before coming to any conclusions ...

 

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2020/02/07/poll-shows-strong-fan-opposition-to-17-game-season/

 

If this continues to go as it has been going only the true Bills fans that have followed the team since the 90's will be in the stadium because the younger generation being lazy as they are & being less than their tougher relatives that raised them will rather sit in a warm living room watching the game than go to a nice brand new Billion $ stadium just because there is to much effort involved !!

 

Eventually if the viewership & revenues due to these things continue to head south the NFL may have to do what the WWE is doing & even the NFL to in some respects as far as they did with MNF in changing the games to a PPV type experience to off set the loss of fans actually going to the stadium .

 

Okay flame away Bills fans, I do know one thing for sure that no matter what the out come of scheduling or TV viewership Bills fans will always have their opinions & won't stop short of hanging some one like me in the square to burn me at the stake in the social media forum so have at it let the linching begin !!

[Kirby Jackson]

-The NFL ratings are up again.

-The NFL cares about revenues 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc...

- The Bills are at or near the bottom of the league in local revenues. That’s a competitive disadvantage that will become an even bigger disadvantage with the new CBA

- A new stadium is coming or a complete renovation (new stadium more likely) 

 

This really isn’t a complicated situation. You need to generate more money to compete. The Pegula’s know this. It will come in the form of a public/private partnership as most are these days. This isn’t an “if” conversation, it is a “when” conversation.

[purple haze]

You can make all the arguments and post all the articles you want to. A new stadium or a major renovation will happen; it will cost what it costs and public money, in some form, be it for the actual stadium or serious infrastructure improvements, will be a part of it.    This Is pro sports in the modern era: generate "more" money or get out of the game.  

 

The Pegula's aren't getting out of the game,  and were aware of the stadium issue when they bought the team.  They have helped build up parts of downtown, and have a lot of real estate holdings downtown.  How many more dots do you need to connect what's going to happen?

[BillsCuse]

26 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

-The NFL ratings are up again.

-The NFL cares about revenues 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc...

- The Bills are at or near the bottom of the league in local revenues. That’s a competitive disadvantage that will become an even bigger disadvantage with the new CBA

- A new stadium is coming or a complete renovation (new stadium more likely) 

 

This really isn’t a complicated situation. You need to generate more money to compete. The Pegula’s know this. It will come in the form of a public/private partnership as most are these days. This isn’t an “if” conversation, it is a “when” conversation.

The Bills are near the bottom with stadium revenues?  How is that happening if they are selling out more than other teams?  And I'm not doubting you, just wondering.  

[John in Jax]

I agree that taxpayers normally get screwed when a new stadium is demanded & built, and that the cost of actually going to game is way out of control, but one thing I will strongly disagree with is the validity of any Twitter poll, since only about 20% of the country uses Twitter, and of those, it skews to a younger group. 

[Kirby Jackson]

4 minutes ago, BillsCuse said:

The Bills are near the bottom with stadium revenues?  How is that happening if they are selling out more than other teams?  And I'm not doubting you, just wondering.  

The least valuable franchise in the league: https://www.forbes.com/sites/mikeozanian/2019/09/04/the-nfls-most-valuable-teams-2019-cowboys-lead-league-at-55-billion/amp/

30th in revenue:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/193553/revenue-of-national-football-league-teams-in-2010/

 

They charge significantly less than other markets. The stadium doesn’t generate the other revenue streams of others, etc..

 

I PROMISE, PROMISE, PROMISE, a new stadium or complete renovation ($500M+) will be happening. This is not something that “might” happen. 

Edited February 8, 2020 by Kirby Jackson

[purple haze]

6 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

The least valuable franchise in the league: https://www.forbes.com/sites/mikeozanian/2019/09/04/the-nfls-most-valuable-teams-2019-cowboys-lead-league-at-55-billion/amp/

30th in revenue:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/193553/revenue-of-national-football-league-teams-in-2010/

 

They charge significantly less than other markets. The stadium doesn’t generate the other revenue streams of others, etc..

 

I PROMISE, PROMISE, PROMISE, a new stadium or complete renovation ($500M+) will be happening. This is not something that “might” happen. 

Agree.  But if I were a betting man, I'd bet on the downtown option being what is chosen by the Pegula's.

[K-9]

35 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

-The NFL ratings are up again.

-The NFL cares about revenues 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc...

- The Bills are at or near the bottom of the league in local revenues. That’s a competitive disadvantage that will become an even bigger disadvantage with the new CBA

- A new stadium is coming or a complete renovation (new stadium more likely) 

 

This really isn’t a complicated situation. You need to generate more money to compete. The Pegula’s know this. It will come in the form of a public/private partnership as most are these days. This isn’t an “if” conversation, it is a “when” conversation.

I value your insight into this subject so maybe you can enlighten me as to how, in the absence of a large number of corporate sponsors  over and above what they’ve already tapped into and a fan base that doesn’t have nearly as much in disposable income as others, the Bills can generate large enough increases in revenues to offset their current disadvantage? Other than PSLs which is an unpopular product in these parts and higher ticket prices, how does new stadium generate revenues in and of itself?

[Kirby Jackson]

3 minutes ago, purple haze said:

Agree.  But if I were a betting man, I'd bet on the downtown option being what is chosen by the Pegula's.

That’s what I’m thinking. I really trust Wawrow when it comes to this stuff and that seems to be what he believes. It’s the more likely scenario for a lot of reasons. I wouldn’t say that it’s a definite at this point.

[swimtoga]

54 minutes ago, T master said:

 

 

If this continues to go as it has been going only the true Bills fans that have followed the team since the 90's will be in the stadium because the younger generation being lazy as they are & being less than their tougher relatives that raised them will rather sit in a warm living room watching the game than go to a nice brand new Billion $ stadium just because there is to much effort involved !!

 

Ok boomer.

[Kirby Jackson]

38 minutes ago, K-9 said:

I value your insight into this subject so maybe you can enlighten me as to how, in the absence of a large number of corporate sponsors  over and above what they’ve already tapped into and a fan base that doesn’t have nearly as much in disposable income as others, the Bills can generate large enough increases in revenues to offset their current disadvantage? Other than PSLs which is an unpopular product in these parts and higher ticket prices, how does new stadium generate revenues in and of itself?

- I think you’ll see some PSL’s (but don’t think SF think Minnesota). They will be mostly in like the $500 range. There will be some higher but we aren’t talking $100k PSLs. 
 

- Additionally, they can build out around the stadium like New England. The Bills will own/control some bars and restaurants in the area and can generate revenue that way (whether directly or indirectly). They can do membership type clubs within the stadium (kind of like the Harbor Club). 

- They can create revenue generating assets. When we renegotiated our state deal here in New Orleans they basically offered us a check. What we countered with were some infrastructure assets that we could monetize. We felt that was a better long-term strategy. That’s why you see the video boards on the outside of the arena in NOLA. You are trying to create “things” to sell to sponsors.
 

- You’d also have a “clean slate” with a new stadium. New Era is a weird situation where the best amenities are not tied to the best locations. In a new stadium you can pair the best locations with the best amenities to drive revenue. Think about the “Legends Club” in Yankee Stadium (obviously with lower prices). If you want to sit 1st row behind home plate, you get an open bar, 5 star buffet, etc.. That’s better than having to pick elite amenities or elite location. You can scale it out.

 

These are just a few ways off the top of my head but there are tons and tons more. 

 

 

Edited February 8, 2020 by Kirby Jackson

[purple haze]

10 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

That’s what I’m thinking. I really trust Wawrow when it comes to this stuff and that seems to be what he believes. It’s the more likely scenario for a lot of reasons. I wouldn’t say that it’s a definite at this point.

Not definite, true, but the dots are hard not to connect.  I hope the Pegula's will make their announcement on the plan so folks can move past the speculation.  And I do hope that after all this time, the actual stadium design renderings are part of the announcement.

[K-9]

1 hour ago, T master said:

If this continues to go as it has been going only the true Bills fans that have followed the team since the 90's will be in the stadium because the younger generation being lazy as they are & being less than their tougher relatives that raised them will rather sit in a warm living room watching the game than go to a nice brand new Billion $ stadium just because there is to much effort involved !!

You invited a ton of derision for this paragraph. And it will have been deserved, imo.  

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

45 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

The least valuable franchise in the league: https://www.forbes.com/sites/mikeozanian/2019/09/04/the-nfls-most-valuable-teams-2019-cowboys-lead-league-at-55-billion/amp/

30th in revenue:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/193553/revenue-of-national-football-league-teams-in-2010/

 

They charge significantly less than other markets. The stadium doesn’t generate the other revenue streams of others, etc..

 

I PROMISE, PROMISE, PROMISE, a new stadium or complete renovation ($500M+) will be happening. This is not something that “might” happen. 

 

...think the WNY economy of scale is a significant factor......our 20 person suite is $75,000 at New Era before you add in food/beverage, transportation, parking, etc.....same suite for Cowgirls or Deadskins is easily $225,000+ BEFORE PSL's....we'd be out in a nanosecond.....food/beverage runs us $1,500 per game and limo bus is $1,000 per game.....so add in another 20 grand......Falcons currently have PSL defaults tabbed up at 32 MILLION in a far more corporately strong market vs Buffalo.....so exactly how do you propose to get a new stadium done, specifically?.......take a hypothetical Lucas Oil Field new stadium at $800 mil....think NY's Big Fredo would pony up $400 mil (COUGH)?......why should Pegula match with $400 mil and no ROI?....Santa Claus?......ROI would come in the form of PSL's, increased ticket & suite prices, etc......how much of a financial hit could WNY absorb?.........

Edited February 8, 2020 by OldTimeAFLGuy

[Lurker]

1 hour ago, T master said:

the younger generation being lazy as they are & being less than their tougher relatives that raised them will rather sit in a warm living room watching the game than go to a nice brand new Billion $ stadium

 

Lazy?   Try not interested in the NFL.   

 

The league has a bigger problem than the stadium issue--its how to keep younger people consuming their product.   

 

 

[Lurker]

1 hour ago, BillsCuse said:

The Bills are near the bottom with stadium revenues?  How is that happening if they are selling out more than other teams?  And I'm not doubting you, just wondering.  

 

 

These are secondary market ticket prices, but they give you an idea of the supply/demand situation:

 

https://blog-admin.tickpick.com/how-much-are-nfl-tickets/

Average Ticket Cost
NFL Team	2017	2018	2019
New England Patriots	$348	$355	$501
Chicago Bears	$186	$246	$376
Green Bay Packers	$226	$243	$243
New Orleans Saints	$160	$216	$301
Denver Broncos	$264	$196	$278
Seattle Seahawks	$223	$236	$248
Philadelphia Eagles	$199	$208	$256
Pittsburgh Steelers	$201	$195	$221
Los Angeles Chargers	$191	$157	$191
Washington Redskins	$109	$131	$167
Dallas Cowboys	$225	$141	$258
Cleveland Browns	$62	$80	$190
Oakland Raiders	$179	$145	$149
Kansas City Chiefs	$90	$102	$209
Miami Dolphins	$139	$104	$143
Detroit Lions	$117	$108	$122
Houston Texans	$123	$126	$145
Minnesota Vikings	$156	$172	$187
San Francisco 49ers	$98	$126	$178
Baltimore Ravens	$105	$100	$129
Tennessee Titans	$127	$185	$148
Atlanta Falcons	$210	$136	$170
Tampa Bay Buccaneers	$153	$151	$150
New York Jets	$75	$88	$117
Cincinnati Bengals	$70	$86	$114
Carolina Panthers	$156	$169	$131
Arizona Cardinals	$107	$82	$93
New York Giants	$155	$137	$152
Los Angeles Rams	$108	$119	$114
Jacksonville Jaguars	$61	$113	$98
Indianapolis Colts	$59	$107	$114
Buffalo Bills	$86	$63	$105

Edited February 8, 2020 by Lurker

[Florida Bills Fanatic]

37 minutes ago, purple haze said:

You can make all the arguments and post all the articles you want to. A new stadium or a major renovation will happen; it will cost what it costs and public money, in some form, be it for the actual stadium or serious infrastructure improvements, will be a part of it.    This Is pro sports in the modern era: generate "more" money or get out of the game.  

 

The Pegula's aren't getting out of the game,  and were aware of the stadium issue when they bought the team.  They have helped build up parts of downtown, and have a lot of real estate holdings downtown.  How many more dots do you need to connect what's going to happen?

Excellent post!  The hard salary cap insures that the competitive aspects of teams on the field remain reasonably close.  Revenue competitive differences come into the picture with what an owner is able or willing to spend for coaching staff, training facilities, medical staff, player support, etc.  Some owners are also cash flow strapped so that they are unable to spend as much on signing bonuses and other up front payments.  Fortunately, Pegulas are in the top one-third of owners in terms of personal wealth so some of these factors are less critical to them.  They will most likely look at things in terms of their return on investment and growing the value of their franchise.  They also have to endure the whining of fellow owners that complain about their smaller revenue take when they play on the road in Buffalo.  Make no mistake, the Pegulas are in this to make money and will do what optimizes their opportunity to make money for the long term.  Having not seen their economic analysis of the options to build new or renovate, I won't venture a guess.  The only thing that is a given is that a bunch of money (private and public) is going to be spent to enhance the profit generated by the Bills.

[Kirby Jackson]

6 minutes ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

 

...think the WNY economy of scale is a significant factor......our 20 person suite is $75,000 at New Era before you add in food/beverage, transportation, parking, etc.....same suite for Cowgirls or Deadskins is easily $225,000+ BEFORE PSL's....we'd be out in a nanosecond.....food/beverage runs us $1,500 per game and limo bus is $1,000 per game.....so add in another 20 grand......Falcons currently have PSL defaults tabbed up at 32 MILLION in a far more corporately strong market vs Buffalo.....so exactly how do you propose to get a new stadium done, specifically?.......take a hypothetical Lucas Oil Field new stadium at $800 mil....think NY's Big Fredo would pony up $400 mil (COUGH)?......why should Pegula match with $400 mil and no ROI?....Santa Claus?......ROI would come in the form of PSL's, increased ticket & suite prices, etc......how much of a financial hit could WNY absorb?.........

Man, I’ve laid out my thoughts on here a zillion times on the topic. I really don’t feel like going through it again but I’m sure it’s in the archives somewhere. Long story short, I’m guessing about 1/2 state, 1/2 private (between team and fans). That will come in the form of concession deals, PSLs, naming rights, the Pegulas themselves. 
 

The bottom line is you can’t function like a minor league team in the NFL. You’re either going to have to get with the program or get left behind. The Bills are never going to be a top 5 revenue club but they don’t need to be the least valuable team in the NFL either.

[Lurker]

33 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

- I think you’ll see some PSL’s (but don’t think SF think Minnesota). They will be mostly in like the $500 range. There will be some higher but we aren’t talking $100k PSLs. 
 

- Additionally, they can Build out around the stadium like New England. The Bills will one/control some bars and restaurants in the area and can generate revenue that way (whether directly or indirectly). They can do membership type clubs within the stadium (kind of like the Harbor Club). 

- They can create revenue generating assets. When we renegotiated our state deal here in New Orleans they basically offered us a check. What we countered with were some infrastructure assets that we could monetize. We felt that was a better long-term strategy. That’s why you see the video boards on the outside of the arena in NOLA. You are trying to create “things” to sell to sponsors.
 

- You’d also have a “clean slate” with a new stadium. New Era is a weird situation where the best amenities are not tied to the best locations. In a new stadium you can pair the best locations with the best amenities to drive revenue. Think about the “Legends Club” in Yankee Stadium (obviously with lower prices). If you want to sit 1st row behind home plate, you get an open bar, 5 star buffet, etc.. That’s better than having to pick elite amenities or elite location. You can scale it out.

 

These are just a few ways off the top of my head but there are tons and tons more. 

 

 

 

I thought the problem the other owners have with the Bills is the amont of gate revenue THEY get to keep as the road team. 

 

All the things you mention are revenue streams that would not be shared with them--they'd stay with the Pegula's.    So, what's in it for the NFL?

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

1 minute ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Man, I’ve laid out my thoughts on here a zillion times on the topic. I really don’t feel like going through it again but I’m sure it’s in the archives somewhere. Long story short, I’m guessing about 1/2 state, 1/2 private (between team and fans). That will come in the form of concession deals, PSLs, naming rights, the Pegulas themselves. 
 

The bottom line is you can’t function like a minor league team in the NFL. You’re either going to have to get with the program or get left behind. The Bills are never going to be a top 5 revenue club but they don’t need to be the least valuable team in the NFL either.

 

.....oh...my apology......isn't that EXACTLY what I said?.......seems like you conveniently skipped over economy of scale and what the WNY market can bear.........skipping those tiny details, sounds you of the volition, "if we build it, they will come".....got it......