Jags unlikely to allow Yannick Ngakoue to test FA

[thenorthremembers]

Never thought the Bills would make a move on him anyways.   He is a good player, but for the money he is going to get I didnt see the Bills being in on him.

 

I'd gladly give a 5th or 6th round pick to the Jags to take a shot on A.J. Bouye for a couple years.   Help them clear cap space, and add a possible starter across from Tre White.

[Mark Vader]

1 hour ago, thebandit27 said:

He’s on Twitter today arguing with 9er fans that want Clowney over him that they should shut up because they aren’t front office employees ? 

I don't know who is funnier. Armstead or the Niner fans.

 

They really think they can get Clowney despite all the money they have invested in the defense already? Not to mention that they currently only have 19 Million in cap space. 

[billsfan89]

4 hours ago, dneveu said:

 

Have to agree... The only issue is tagging him costs 18+ million.  Dareus and linder free up 28, leaving them with like 7 after tagging him (they currently are over the cap.  So they'll either have to cut more people, or skip free agency while they try and trade him.  Hayden, Campbell, Bouye, Lee, Jones - Any combination of those guys could be on the chopping block.  I know you can always create cap space by pushing salary into bonuses and stuff - this isn't a team to do that.  Flawed team in flux.  

 

I'd tag him and try and extend him - he's 24.    Cut Hayden, Campbell, Lee and free up another 26 million so you can build out some depth.  Target oline in FA, and try and build the defense in the draft?  

 

 

 

I think a GM for Jacksonville would be wise to gut a lot of the roster and rebuild through the draft. The Ramsey trade was a haul of picks that could easily help facilitate a rebuild. I can’t see Yannick no a tag getting more than a 3rdround pick but it is a decent asset to add. I think they are likely to consider a full scale rebuild trading Campbell to a contender for a pick (I think he can fetch a mid-round and late round pick) 

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

1 hour ago, billsfan89 said:

 

I think a GM for Jacksonville would be wise to gut a lot of the roster and rebuild through the draft. The Ramsey trade was a haul of picks that could easily help facilitate a rebuild. I can’t see Yannick no a tag getting more than a 3rdround pick but it is a decent asset to add. I think they are likely to consider a full scale rebuild trading Campbell to a contender for a pick (I think he can fetch a mid-round and late round pick) 

 

Somehow caldwell and marrone are still in charge there.  I doubt they're going to convince khan that cutting a bunch of people then immediately spending the generated cap space trying to patch the holes is in his best interest.  I think they'll try to keep the band mostly together for one more go around to try and keep their jobs.  Draft a ramsey replacement, try and improve the offensive line.  

 

If the Yannick 3rd rounder is in 2020 its already a lot more valuable than the comp pick if it helps them this year.  

[Reed83HOF]

3 hours ago, thebandit27 said:

He’s on Twitter today arguing with 9er fans that want Clowney over him that they should shut up because they aren’t front office employees ? 

Is that like Tre on Twitter arguing with Bills fans about trading Mahomes for him? 

 

 

[GreggTX]

He's a RE and a very, very slight upgrade over Hughes. I'd rather get a real game changer to replace Murphy on the other side. We need elite talent guys, not more pretty good but nothing special guys.

[YoloinOhio]

9 minutes ago, GreggTX said:

He's a RE and a very, very slight upgrade over Hughes. I'd rather get a real game changer to replace Murphy on the other side. We need elite talent guys, not more pretty good but nothing special guys.

Who do you want them to try to get and are you proposing it would be via trade? What are you willing to give up? The only elite one in the draft is Young, who will not be obtainable. Yannick is the best one on the market (if he even hits the market). Clowney could be an option?

Edited February 11, 2020 by YoloinOhio

[Canadian Bills Fan]

13 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said:

Who do you want them to try to get and are you proposing it would be via trade? What are you willing to give up? The only elite one in the draft is Young, who will not be obtainable. Yannick is the best one on the market (if he even hits the market). Clowney could be an option?

 

 

Ok Yolo we need to talk. 

 

 

Whenever I see your the last post in a thread, I automatically assume you are posting some breaking news.

 

I don't like this trickery when its just a reply to a comment.

 

 

lol

[thebandit27]

1 hour ago, GreggTX said:

He's a RE and a very, very slight upgrade over Hughes. I'd rather get a real game changer to replace Murphy on the other side. We need elite talent guys, not more pretty good but nothing special guys.

Just so you know, just about all of this is wrong.

 

He plays left end more often than not, with Josh Allen playing the right side on passing downs and Campbell playing the right in apparent run situations.

 

He’s not only slightly better than Hughes. Since Ngakoue entered the league in 2016, both he and Hughes have played 64 games (EDIT: Yannick has actually played 63). In that timeframe, Ngakoue has 105 tackles, 85 QB hits, 37.5 sacks, 42 TFLs, 14 FFs, 2 INTs, and 2 TDs. In the same timeframe (and 1 more game), Hughes has 103 tackles, 49 QB hits, 21.5 sacks, 39 TFLs, 5 FFs, 0 INTs, and 0 TDs.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&player_id1_hint=Yannick+Ngakoue&player_id1_select=Yannick+Ngakoue&fromyear_1=2016&toyear_1=2019&player_id1=NgakYa00&idx=players&player_id2_hint=Jerry+Hughes&player_id2_select=Jerry+Hughes&fromyear_2=2016&toyear_2=2019&player_id2=HughJe99&idx=players
 

It isn’t even close between them.

 

If you want a guy that’s got slightly better sack numbers than Ngakoue but less money, Mario Addison is the guy.

Edited February 11, 2020 by thebandit27

[DrDawkinstein]

Word is Jags might be looking to make a Osweiler-type trade to a team with cap room in order to move Foles and free up $20M+ in cap.

 

They will also probably tag Ngakoue, but he may not want to sign there and pull a Clowney.

 

I'm thinking...

 

Bills send Jags our 2020 2nd round pick

Jags send Bills Foles, Ngakoue, and their 2020 3rd round pick

[thebandit27]

6 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

Word is Jags might be looking to make a Osweiler-type trade to a team with cap room in order to move Foles and free up $20M+ in cap.

 

They will also probably tag Ngakoue, but he may not want to sign there and pull a Clowney.

 

I'm thinking...

 

Bills send Jags our 2020 2nd round pick

Jags send Bills Foles, Ngakoue, and their 2020 3rd round pick

A Foles trade would only save them $3M

[DrDawkinstein]

7 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

A Foles trade would only save them $3M

 

Ah, that's right. They still get hit with like $18M, right?

[Hapless Bills Fan]

On 2/6/2020 at 1:04 PM, thebandit27 said:

He’s on Twitter today arguing with 9er fans that want Clowney over him that they should shut up because they aren’t front office employees ? 

 

OhBoy.  Armistad agent be all like "Shaddup Arik!  Yes I know you're right!  Doesn't matter!"

[Hapless Bills Fan]

26 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

Word is Jags might be looking to make a Osweiler-type trade to a team with cap room in order to move Foles and free up $20M+ in cap.

 

They will also probably tag Ngakoue, but he may not want to sign there and pull a Clowney.

 

I'm thinking...

 

Bills send Jags our 2020 2nd round pick

Jags send Bills Foles, Ngakoue, and their 2020 3rd round pick

 

So the Jags are well and truly screwed with Foles contract this year.  Even if they get some other team to take on his $15.1M fully guaranteed salary and additional bonuses, they would immediately be on the hook for $18.75M of amortized signing bonus.  Thus they would only save $3M by shipping Foles out.

 

Not happening.

 

The Jags have to clear a buttload of cap space to tag Ngakoue.  They can, by cutting Dareus and Linder - just a point they would likely not want to cut players to franchise-and-trade a guy

[Thurman#1]

On 2/6/2020 at 11:51 PM, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Just a note, @Thurman#1, that both Overthecap and Spotrac list the savings by cutting Darius at $20M

https://overthecap.com/player/marcell-dareus/1830/

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/jacksonville-jaguars/marcell-dareus-7718/

 

 

 

Hap, not exactly. They aren't listing total savings at $20 mill. Theyare calling it "Cap Savings" but you'll notice that they then list - separately - $2.5 mill in dead cap. That dead cap is NOT included in what they are calling "Cap Savings." 

 

Take a look. Both list Dareus as receiving $9.5 mill in base salary, a $10 mill roster bonus in March and $500K in workout bonuses. That totals $20M, and it's what they are calling "Cap Savings." To me it should be called something clearer, like "Cash Saved," but whatever, they're calling it "Cap Savings."

 

But after that $20 mill which they would have had to pay him this year is saved, they still have $2.5 mill in dead cap subtracted from the cap.

 

The total is $17.5M. I guess if people want to ignore the dead cap, that's their business, but it would make no sense to me.

Edited February 13, 2020 by Thurman#1

[Hapless Bills Fan]

12 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Hap, not exactly. They aren't listing total savings at $20 mill. Theyare calling it "Cap Savings" but you'll notice that they then list - separately - $2.5 mill in dead cap. That dead cap is NOT included in what they are calling "Cap Savings." 

 

Take a look. Both list Dareus as receiving $9.5 mill in base salary, a $10 mill roster bonus in March and $500K in workout bonuses. That totals $20M, and it's what they are calling "Cap Savings." To me it should be called something clearer, like "Cash Saved," but whatever, they're calling it "Cap Savings."

 

But after that $20 mill which they would have had to pay him this year is saved, they still have $2.5 mill in dead cap subtracted from the cap.

 

The total is $17.5M. I guess if people want to ignore the dead cap, that's their business, but it would make no sense to me.

 

I think you or someone else said this before, and it was corrected then.

 

Dareus "cap number" this year is $22.5M, which includes the amortized signing bonus.  Thus, after accounting for the $2.5M dead cap, the savings are $20M

 

https://overthecap.com/player/marcell-dareus/1830/

Here: 

 

Sum the first 4 money columns.  You get $22.5M.  Subtract the prorated bonus, you get $20M.  You're subtracting his amortized signing bonus twice, which is incorrect because this is the last year of his contract.

[Thurman#1]

3 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I think you or someone else said this before, and it was corrected then.

 

Dareus "cap number" this year is $22.5M, which includes the amortized signing bonus.  Thus, after accounting for the $2.5M dead cap, the savings are $20M

 

https://overthecap.com/player/marcell-dareus/1830/

Here: 

 

Sum the first 4 money columns.  You get $22.5M.  Subtract the prorated bonus, you get $20M.  You're subtracting his amortized signing bonus twice, which is incorrect because this is the last year of his contract.

 

 

Sorry, Hap, but you're not right about this. It's you who is accounting twice for the Unamortized signing bonus. You're subtracting Cap Number (which DOES contain the unamortized bonus, called Prorated Bonus in your chart) and then subtracting dead money, which ALSO contains the unamortized bonus. Or more correctly, it IS the amortized bonus. You're using it twice. There's a reason your graphic there lists Cap Savings and Dead Money in pink and right next to each other. Because if he's cut, you need those two pieces of info to find total cap impact, you subtract one from the other.

 

If you sum the first four money columns, you are including his unamortized bonus money. It's the third column, titled "Prorated Bonus." You know what his dead money is, right? It's his unamortized bonus money, the same money you added in earlier, the "Prorated Bonus." So you're originally adding and then later subtracting the same money. There is no universe where that makes sense.

 

Yes, his "cap number this year" is $22.5M. But again, the cap number is only an "IF" conditional. It only is $22.5 mill IF he stays on the team ... that's how much he will cost them, and his dead cap will be zero if he's still on the team.

 

If on the other hand, he's cut, his unamortized bonus ("Prorated bonus" in your OTC graphic) becomes zero ... it disappears from his cap number and reappears in dead money. It's one or the other, it's either in the cap number or the dead money, depending whether he is with the team or not. But it simply can not be in both.

 

It's listed in both places because they don't know in advance whether he'll be cut or not. But you simply ... can ... NOT ... add the same money to both sides of a subtraction and expect to get the correct answer.

 

 

 

Let me try to put it another way to make it clearer. You certainly agree that they save $20 mill (base salary + roster bonus + workout bonus = $20M) if Dareus is gone, correct? So ask yourself this. Do they also save $2.5 mill in amortized bonus on top of that if they cut him? Is that money "saved"? It absolutely isn't. He got paid that money years ago in his bonus check, and whatever money they already paid ABSOLUTELY MUST be charged against the salary cap sooner or later. That money is NOT saved if he's cut. It's a sunken cost.

 

 

 

If he stays on the team, his cap cost will be $22.5M. And there Is no dead money.

 

If on the other hand, he's cut, they only save the money they have not paid him yet, the $20M. But now the unamortized bonus is shifted into dead money. 

 

 

And if you're looking for the total cap impact of cutting a guy, you subtract the dead money from what Spotrac calls Yearly Cash, the total future cash saved this year if you cut him.

 

 

If you still doubt this, there's a cap expert on here. Dammit, his name escapes me now, but you know who I mean, right? Message him. He will tell you I'm right. Hell, email Spotrac and OTC. They will tell you the same thing.

 

EDIT: I just emailed Spotrac about this, and assuming they answer, I vow to post it, even if they say I'm wrong. That's a promise.

 

 

 

 

Edited February 13, 2020 by Thurman#1

[GG]

I honestly don't understand the controversy.

 

Cutting Dareus is a no-brainer if he doesn't agree to a team friendly contract extension.  They have until Feb 25 to make a decision, after that almost $20 million of his pay is guaranteed)   Jags clear $20 million of 2020 cap space with an outright cut.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

On 2/6/2020 at 4:35 PM, Reed83HOF said:

Is that like Tre on Twitter arguing with Bills fans about trading Mahomes for him?

 

Nah, Tre was funny "OK bet! I see what I gotta do!"

[thebandit27]

10 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Sorry, Hap, but you're not right about this. It's you who is accounting twice for the Unamortized signing bonus. You're subtracting Cap Number (which DOES contain the unamortized bonus, called Prorated Bonus in your chart) and then subtracting dead money, which ALSO contains the unamortized bonus. Or more correctly, it IS the amortized bonus. You're using it twice. There's a reason your graphic there lists Cap Savings and Dead Money in pink and right next to each other. Because if he's cut, you need those two pieces of info to find total cap impact, you subtract one from the other.

 

If you sum the first four money columns, you are including his unamortized bonus money. It's the third column, titled "Prorated Bonus." You know what his dead money is, right? It's his unamortized bonus money, the same money you added in earlier, the "Prorated Bonus." So you're originally adding and then later subtracting the same money. There is no universe where that makes sense.

 

Yes, his "cap number this year" is $22.5M. But again, the cap number is only an "IF" conditional. It only is $22.5 mill IF he stays on the team ... that's how much he will cost them, and his dead cap will be zero if he's still on the team.

 

If on the other hand, he's cut, his unamortized bonus ("Prorated bonus" in your OTC graphic) becomes zero ... it disappears from his cap number and reappears in dead money. It's one or the other, it's either in the cap number or the dead money, depending whether he is with the team or not. But it simply can not be in both.

 

It's listed in both places because they don't know in advance whether he'll be cut or not. But you simply ... can ... NOT ... add the same money to both sides of a subtraction and expect to get the correct answer.

 

 

 

Let me try to put it another way to make it clearer. You certainly agree that they save $20 mill (base salary + roster bonus + workout bonus = $20M) if Dareus is gone, correct? So ask yourself this. Do they also save $2.5 mill in amortized bonus on top of that if they cut him? Is that money "saved"? It absolutely isn't. He got paid that money years ago in his bonus check, and whatever money they already paid ABSOLUTELY MUST be charged against the salary cap sooner or later. That money is NOT saved if he's cut. It's a sunken cost.

 

 

 

If he stays on the team, his cap cost will be $22.5M. And there Is no dead money.

 

If on the other hand, he's cut, they only save the money they have not paid him yet, the $20M. But now the unamortized bonus is shifted into dead money. 

 

 

And if you're looking for the total cap impact of cutting a guy, you subtract the dead money from what Spotrac calls Yearly Cash, the total future cash saved this year if you cut him.

 

 

If you still doubt this, there's a cap expert on here. Dammit, his name escapes me now, but you know who I mean, right? Message him. He will tell you I'm right. Hell, email Spotrac and OTC. They will tell you the same thing.

 

EDIT: I just emailed Spotrac about this, and assuming they answer, I vow to post it, even if they say I'm wrong. That's a promise.

 

 

 

 

This is incorrect.

 

Dareus is in the last year of his deal, and the only guaranteed money left is the $2.5M bonus. The rest of the $22.5M cap figure is accounted for by his base salary of $9M, his roster bonus of $10M, and his workout bonus of $0.5M...all of which do not get paid is he’s not on the roster.

 

His cap hit is $22.5M if he’s kept; it’s $2.5M if he’s cut. Cap savings is $20M.