Cover 1 evaluation of Laviska Shenault and in-depth overview of injury history

[thebandit27]

10 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

Because I really dont think he is a gadget guy....I think he is just being used that way.

 

I see a physical bull with soft hands that is faster then ppl think.....who makes difficult catches on the boundry....the catches that only Duke was making for us this last year.

But how does that make him a perfect fit for Daboll’s scheme as Mel claims?

[BADOLBILZ]

19 hours ago, atlbillsfan1975 said:

Good write up on the injuries. 
I don’t like him compared to Watkins. It seems Shenault might be a little tougher than Sammy, coming back his Sophomore year and playing with two injuries which ultimately needed surgery after the season. 

 

 

Watkins was a tough, beast of a player in college.   Put up 16 grabs and 230 yards receiving on a bad knee versus Ohio State in a bowl game that kinda' changed the entire perception about Clemson as a "soft" program.   Played thru a lot of pain in Buffalo too........shouldn't have set foot on the field in 2016 but kept working to get back.   I think he's clearly shied away from contact in KC........perhaps to try to stay healthy.......but even with the Rams he was prone to lowering his head and running over dudes and paid the price for it.

[Reed83HOF]

56 minutes ago, Magox said:

 

Viska can do these things, he's just not a polished route runner at this point.  Same can be said with Tyreek, he is just so good at the things he's good at that it just takes over and I think Viska is similar that he is so good at what he's good with that it will mask his initial deficiencies. 

 

It's not that I don't like the guy. What I am looking at is our immediate deficiency of scoring points, how a WR functions & basic skills needed in our offense and I can't see him contributing right away. 

 

The route running is an issue and most likely why Foster doesn't get on the field. Bandit has said it in other posts here, but in Daboll's system WRs have to make reads at the LOS and adjust their routes base don the read. I don't see him contributing much this year in that regard, as a jet sweep guy sure, WR screen guy sure; at this point and through his rookie year I am not sure he is much better than McKenzie impact wise.

 

 

[John from Riverside]

16 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

But how does that make him a perfect fit for Daboll’s scheme as Mel claims?

Look at him catch passes on the end zone boundry

17 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Watkins was a tough, beast of a player in college.   Put up 16 grabs and 230 yards receiving on a bad knee versus Ohio State in a bowl game that kinda' changed the entire perception about Clemson as a "soft" program.   Played thru a lot of pain in Buffalo too........shouldn't have set foot on the field in 2016 but kept working to get back.   I think he's clearly shied away from contact in KC........perhaps to try to stay healthy.......but even with the Rams he was prone to lowering his head and running over dudes and paid the price for it.

Yeah I frankly have never felt Sammy was "soft"

 

His mental state is where I am concerned......we need a leader at that position

[Magox]

Just now, Reed83HOF said:

 

It's not that I don't like the guy. What I am looking at is our immediate deficiency of scoring points, how a WR functions & basic skills needed in our offense and I can't see him contributing right away. 

 

The route running is an issue and most likely why Foster doesn't get on the field. Bandit has said it in other posts here, but in Daboll's system WRs have to make reads at the LOS and adjust their routes base don the read. I don't see him contributing much this year in that regard, as a jet sweep guy sure, WR screen guy sure; at this point and through his rookie year I am not sure he is much better than McKenzie impact wise.

 

 

 

I just think his strengths will show for itself.  Often times we tend to pigeon hole people based off of early evaluations like for Viska it's that he is not a polished route runner.  That doesn't necessarily mean that he can't get open.  He can, he has natural instincts and he tracks the ball extremely well.  That is not to be understated, that is an ability that eludes many WR's in this league and the good deep threat guys have this ability. When you combine that with all his other qualities, I think you will see that he will immediately contribute in a variety of ways.  And usually guys who have a strong desire to get better, which from everything I have read he is that kind of guy, then usually they tend to continue to get better. 

 

Barring injuries, I think he will immediately contribute to whatever team drafts him and he'll continue to get better.  I guess we'll find out over the next year.

[Buffalo716]

2 hours ago, H2o said:

I must admit I have been down on Shenault. I have given people a lot of flak over the guy. I apologize to everyone who I was giving a hard time about LS. I also gave a lazy comparison of Cordarrelle Patterson, but that was physically, playing style, and athletically incorrect. I watched the two, one after another, for a while yesterday evening and realized how far off base I was outside of the fact as to how their respective teams used them. I said I saw LS as Patterson 2.0 and nothing could be further from the truth.  So I went back and started digging. 

 

Watching Shenault I realized he is a MUCH BETTER hands catcher (as another poster pointed out to me previously) than I was giving him credit for, unlike Patterson who seemed to try to catch everything with his body. Shenault is also going to be an asset in the running game with his strength and physicality, whether it be blocking or getting the ball on a jet sweep. Patterson was not physical, just fast with an ability to put his foot in the ground then get going 0-60 in a split second. I was thinking to myself, "Dang, I made myself look like an idiot saying he was CP 2.0." Then I started thinking about who he actually did remind me of, who was he most similar to, which NFL WR has that same body type, and where had I seen Shenault's style of play before? All of a sudden it was like a light switch came on. The way they catch the ball, the way they move with the ball in their hands, the run after the catch ability, the body type, the way they track the ball in the air then meet it at it's highest point,  almost dang near everything. The only difference is the WR he is most like was a more polished route runner coming into the league and his college team did not use him in the same manner as CU did with Shenault. Who he really reminds me of after watching the two side by side is a slightly more explosive, but less polished route runner version Larry Fitzgerald. I also expect Shenault to run a similarly "slow" 40 time to be honest. Maybe not a 4.63 like Fitzgerald did, but I expect it to be in the 4.53-4.58 range. People are going to want to talk about the stat differential between the two, but watch both of them track the ball, watch how they catch the ball, and watch them both once they get the ball in their hands. To me they seem eerily similar. Watch these highlight reels and judge for yourself. I am not saying Shenault is going to be Larry Fitzgerald 2.0 and a have a HOF career, but that Larry is the WR that Shenault reminds me of the most when I look at the two side by side on the highlight reels. If this is who we take at #22 then I wouldn't complain as long as all of his medicals are good. 

 

I think Shenault has better hands than Patterson but the comparison is because they were used semi similar and they are both built like RBs not WRs and YAC was both their greatest strength

 

You say Patterson wasn't physical but he definitely ran fast and physical in the SEC.  He broke lots of arm tackles and weak attempts and ran fearless.. Shenault is more of a violent runner

 

They both have unrefined route running coming out and both had good not great stats.. I will say Shenault runs better routes

 

Patterson is faster while Shenault is stronger 

 

 

As for Larry Fitz I think he ran 100x better routes than either of them and had 10/10 hands which neither have either. But that's why Larry went top 5

 

When you play the same role you will be compared to guys in the same role , that's just how it goes. Are they carbon copies of each other ? No but they are both RBs with the ball in hand and both played in the backfield and are built similarly

 

I would say Patterson is a poor man's Shenault though, I do think Shenault is a better WR with better routes and hands but still not advanced route running

Edited February 6, 2020 by Buffalo716

[BADOLBILZ]

24 minutes ago, Canadian Bills Fan said:

While I am excited about this guy, I think the combine/pro days will also tell us a lot about this WR class

 

 

Yeah I put more stock in the workout season than I used to.........especially in a WR class this deep it should really help separate some of these guys.

[Lurker]

More fuel for the fire:   Pro Football Focus WR rankings as of January 31

3. LAVISKA SHENAULT JR., COLORADO

Draft Board Rank: 15th

Shenault is still more of an offensive weapon than a wide receiver, but he's one deadly weapon, nonetheless. As a true sophomore, he caught 87 passes for 1,019 yards and broke 29 tackles on the year. The combination of his size at 220 pounds and likely sub-4.4 explosiveness is unmatched at the receiver position in the draft class.

 

The worrisome thing is that it so far hasn't translated to downfield production. Even before his injury-plagued 2019 season, Shenault only had 22 of his 87 catches come on targets 10-plus yards downfield (and only 14 this past season), while both Lamb and Jeudy have had more in each of the past two seasons.

 

However, you just can't teach his physical tools, and all you have to do is find a way to get him the ball for good things to happen.

 

 

[thebandit27]

13 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

Look at him catch passes on the end zone boundry

Yeah I frankly have never felt Sammy was "soft"

 

His mental state is where I am concerned......we need a leader at that position

I guess I’m not understanding what you’re saying here.

 

Yes, he has good hands and is physical. Yes, he’s a good athlete.

 

What I’m trying to understand is how those traits translate to Daboll’s scheme—one that requires not only precise route-running, but a variety of break techniques, leverages, etc to execute the concepts.

[BADOLBILZ]

7 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

I think Shenault has better hands than Patterson but the comparison is because they were used semi similar and they are both built like RBs not WRs and YAC was both their greatest strength

 

You say Patterson wasn't physical but he definitely ran fast and physical in the SEC.  He broke lots of arm tackles and weak attempts and ran fearless.. Shenault is more of a violent runner

 

They both have unrefined route running coming out and both had good not great stats

 

Patterson is faster while Shenault is stronger 

 

 

As for Larry Fitz I think he ran 100x better routes than either of them and had 10/10 hands which neither have either. But that's why Larry went top 5

 

When you play the same role you will be compared to guys in the same role , that's just how it goes. Are they carbon copies of each other ? No but they are both RBs with the ball in hand and both played in the backfield and are built similarly

 

 

Yeah and the Patterson tape is MUCH more comparable to Shenault than the Fitzgerald tape.......in fact Patterson was more explosive.  

 

Patterson never developed as a receiver but I remember there were serious concerns about his intelligence/personality...........which may have nullified his ability to develop as a WR.........a player with his skillset shouldn't have been such a bust as a receiver.      

 

[atlbillsfan1975]

41 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Watkins was a tough, beast of a player in college.   Put up 16 grabs and 230 yards receiving on a bad knee versus Ohio State in a bowl game that kinda' changed the entire perception about Clemson as a "soft" program.   Played thru a lot of pain in Buffalo too........shouldn't have set foot on the field in 2016 but kept working to get back.   I think he's clearly shied away from contact in KC........perhaps to try to stay healthy.......but even with the Rams he was prone to lowering his head and running over dudes and paid the price for it.

 

25 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

Look at him catch passes on the end zone boundry

Yeah I frankly have never felt Sammy was "soft"

 

His mental state is where I am concerned......we need a leader at that position

This was more what I was speaking to. He just doesn’t strike me as a guy who is all in on football. 

[BADOLBILZ]

3 minutes ago, Lurker said:

More fuel for the fire:   Pro Football Focus WR rankings as of January 31

3. LAVISKA SHENAULT JR., COLORADO

Draft Board Rank: 15th

 

The worrisome thing is that it so far hasn't translated to downfield production. Even before his injury-plagued 2019 season, Shenault only had 22 of his 87 catches come on targets 10-plus yards downfield (and only 14 this past season), while both Lamb and Jeudy have had more in each of the past two seasons.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Despite seeming to be the biggest deep threat in his draft class Cordarrelle Patterson never developed any downfield presence in the pro's........in fact his ypc numbers are pathetic.   

 

I didn't see every snap of Shenault's career but I don't get where all the "he is a great tracker of the ball" comes from.      There isn't much proof of that.   

 

One of the things that made Sammy Watkins such a great prospect coming out was that he caught the ball with virtually the same ease 40+ yards downfield as he did on a bubble screen.........he didn't have to leave his feet behind to track a deep ball.   And because of that despite not having elite speed he was like a 4.3 guy on 9 routes because he didn't have to stop.

[Reed83HOF]

19 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

 

Despite seeming to be the biggest deep threat in his draft class Cordarrelle Patterson never developed any downfield presence in the pro's........in fact his ypc numbers are pathetic.   

 

I didn't see every snap of Shenault's career but I don't get where all the "he is a great tracker of the ball" comes from.      There isn't much proof of that.   

 

One of the things that made Sammy Watkins such a great prospect coming out was that he caught the ball with virtually the same ease 40+ yards downfield as he did on a bubble screen.........he didn't have to leave his feet behind to track a deep ball.   And because of that despite not having elite speed he was like a 4.3 guy on 9 routes because he didn't have to stop.

 

As I spend more time looking and thinking about the WR topic -is this the year we make a big move up the board to add premium talent to the offense via a higher draft choice (which we have not done since Allen)? I see a top 3 who can come in very quickly and fit what we do and then I see others who will take time to grow (hopefully) in what we want?

 

I get that not everything is created equally, but Falcons gave up a RD1, RD2 and RD4 to go from #26 to #6 for Julio = does Beane actually grow a set like that this year?

Edited February 6, 2020 by Reed83HOF

[Lurker]

35 minutes ago, Reed83HOF said:

I get that not everything is created equally, but Falcons gave up a RD1, RD2 and RD4 to go from #26 to #6 for Julio = does Beane actually grow a set like that this year?

 

I don't think he'll go up that high (for Lamb or Jeudy, presumably).   But I could see him getting into the teens for Ruggs or--on the other side of the ball--Epenesa.

 

Almost every mock I see over the last few days has Buffalo sitting at 22 and picking Tee Higgins.   I just can't see Beane taking that safe / expected route this year.    If they can't go up for a specific target, I'd rather go down and collect an extra 2nd or 3rd.   There are plenty of good players in that range of the draft that could really help the Bills this year...

 

Edited February 6, 2020 by Lurker

[BADOLBILZ]

4 minutes ago, Reed83HOF said:

 

As I spend more time looking and thinking about the WR topic -is this the year we make a big move up the board to add premium talent to the offense via a higher draft choice (which we have not done since Allen)? I see a top 3 who can come in very quickly and fit what we do and then I see others who will take time to grow (hopefully) in what we want?

 

I get that not everything is created equally, but Falcons gave up a RD1, RD2 and RD4 to go from #26 to #6 for Julio = does Beane actually grow a set like that this year?

 

 

Like most things with McBeane I suspect the situation is VERY fluid right now.

 

That runs contrary to the notion that they are master planners but I think if they score in UFA they might be more inclined to make a move up to get a play maker to elevate Allen and the woeful offense.

 

I could also see them trading their first or second round picks.............there is logic to that as well since they have drafted 4 players in round 1 in the last 3 years and those players all seem extension worthy at this point.......which could cause a real cap decision crisis involving Edmunds/Oliver/2020 #1 pick around 2022-2023.

 

The kinda' decision the Jaguars have had to make with Fowler/Ramsey/Ngakoue.    In retrospect they might wish they had just traded for an elite talent rather than overspend for scratch and dents in UFA and not win until their window was half shut already and then have to trade those young guys because they drafted too well.

 

Maybe as @thebandit27 has suggested they trade for a Chandler Jones.....or a WR like OBJ.......get that seasoned, elite help, save the money in UFA........and open up salary space in 2024-2025.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

22 hours ago, YoloinOhio said:

I am starting to see him mocked to the Bills quote a bit. Joe Marino thinks he is the best fit for the Bills out of this WR draft class. Very thorough analysis of this prospect. 

That’s a very unsmurfy Catch Radius...

[YoloinOhio]

I had no idea that people had this many strong opinions on this laviska dude. I mean I had heard of him, but personally watched zero Colorado football (ever)

Edited February 6, 2020 by YoloinOhio

[Reed83HOF]

57 minutes ago, Lurker said:

 

I don't think he'll go up that high (for Lamb or Jeudy, presumably).   But I could see him getting into the teens for Ruggs or--on the other side of the ball--Epenesa.

 

Almost every mock I see over the last few days has Buffalo sitting at 22 and picking Tee Higgins.   I just can't see Beane taking that safe / expected route this year.    If they can't go up for a specific target, I'd rather go down and collect an extra 2nd or 3rd.   There are plenty of good players in that range of the draft that could really help the Bills this year...

 

Tee Higgins will not be a Bill. I almost think that is who Beane talked about when he said he saw an SEC WR who only plays outside. 

 

He either goes up for the WR or it is a non WR at #22 and he moves up in to the top of RD2 for the WR - the only issue I see there is the teams that draft in the top of RD1 are pushing the WR need to RD2, which is going to create issues for us and could force us into over-drafting a WR at #22 - a truly dreadful situation IMO.

 

The way he talked about Josh needing more weapons he can trust really makes me feel like he is going to swing high for a guy, unless he grabs an AJ Green in FA who can buy time for a second rounder to develop, but I really don't want another Zay Jones project guy and I don't like Cooper...

[Reed83HOF]

54 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Like most things with McBeane I suspect the situation is VERY fluid right now.

 

That runs contrary to the notion that they are master planners but I think if they score in UFA they might be more inclined to make a move up to get a play maker to elevate Allen and the woeful offense.

 

I could also see them trading their first or second round picks.............there is logic to that as well since they have drafted 4 players in round 1 in the last 3 years and those players all seem extension worthy at this point.......which could cause a real cap decision crisis involving Edmunds/Oliver/2020 #1 pick around 2022-2023.

 

The kinda' decision the Jaguars have had to make with Fowler/Ramsey/Ngakoue.    In retrospect they might wish they had just traded for an elite talent rather than overspend for scratch and dents in UFA and not win until their window was half shut already and then have to trade those young guys because they drafted too well.

 

Maybe as @thebandit27 has suggested they trade for a Chandler Jones.....or a WR like OBJ.......get that seasoned, elite help, save the money in UFA........and open up salary space in 2024-2025.

 

Cap space as of now and the next 3 years is not an issue, granted you have a lot less players under contract (obviously) $90M this year, $186M next and then like 13 players signed in 2022 and we have $355M in space. It comes down to how do you want to construct your roster and what positions are you willing to pay a premium on (I think we agree on those BTW)?

 

For arguments sake OBJ cost CLE RD1, RD3 and Peppers and the cost of $90M for OBJ - would you do RD1, RD3 and Poyer and $90  for OBJ or do you do RD1 & RD2 and RD4 with a 5th yr option on CeeDee Lamb where you can spread out the cap hits over the next few years as you resign your players. We aren't paying 2 safeties $11M each or a 3rd LB more than $2M a year...

 

I almost think in any scenario I chose option 2. I would even ride with Shaq at DE if we struck out on every other Edge in UFA and try to line up for one in the 2021 draft

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

Yeah and the Patterson tape is MUCH more comparable to Shenault than the Fitzgerald tape.......in fact Patterson was more explosive.  

 

Patterson never developed as a receiver but I remember there were serious concerns about his intelligence/personality...........which may have nullified his ability to develop as a WR.........a player with his skillset shouldn't have been such a bust as a receiver.     

 

Beane straight-up said in one of his post-season pressers, that they were going to have to get to know these guys and assess their intelligence (in a football, not a Wonderlic sense) because "Brian's offense is very complex".  If the Bills pass up a player the outside observer thinks would be better, that may be the reason why.

 

I don't think it's coincidence that we have 2 former QB playing receiver on the Bills right now.