Reasons I think Josh is more viable long term than Jackson

[Chicken Boo]

28 minutes ago, njbuff said:

 

We have NO IDEA what these teams are going to look like in 2020.

 

Way too early to come to the conclusion that the Bills have a tough schedule.

 

Records aside, barring injuries, the Rams, 49ers, Seahawks, Steelers, x2 Patriots & Chiefs will be tough outings.  No two ways about it.

Edited February 6, 2020 by Chicken Boo

[njbuff]

Just now, Chicken Boo said:

 

Records aside, the Rams, 49ers, Seahawks, Steelers, x2 Patriots & Chiefs will be tough outings.  No two ways about it.

 

This team should be well prepared for whatever comes their way in 2020.

 

If they fail, it will be a MAJOR disappointment.

[John from Riverside]

31 minutes ago, Ethan in Portland said:

Why? Based on what? Arm strength alone is not going to cut it. I believe in Allen and like the trajectory he is on but it will be very hard for Allen to ever achieve 36 TD and 6 INT so one could argue Allen has a long way to go just to get yo where Jackson is now.

How much of that is scheme, coaching, and other skill players is hard to know. Give Allen the TEs that Jackson has and he assuredly puts up better numbers.

I base it on skill set

 

Jackson's game is just different...he is as good as he is ever going to be as a runner and is not that great of a passer

 

Josh Allen's game is evolving as a passer

[Hapless Bills Fan]

58 minutes ago, Ethan in Portland said:

This is just a blatantly racist original post. If anything you should have the exact opposite take. Jackson has been a better passer by far and Allen has relied on his athleticism not his passing to win many games. 

The take should be that even if Jackson loses some athletic ability he can still be a great QB with a 6:1 TD:INT ratio and QB rating over 110. Followed by Allen improved from year 1 to year 2 and if he does the Bill's will be fine at QB. But he has a long way to go as we all saw in the Houston game. 

 

We do, from time to time, have some blatantly racist stuff on here, mods best efforts not withstanding.  But I fail to see how this op is one of them.  Something can be a mistaken or bad take (which is what I think of the OP) without being racist at all.  Moreover, if there is racism involved in this take, it's not blatant, but implicit.

 

The OP:

I truly think the Bills intentionally put Josh into some tough spots this year and he grew during them. They did not give him the big reciever as a security blanket, he had only small precise recievers which forced him to be more accurate. They called plays that were not one read plays but required him to make decisions during plays, forcing him to grow mentally. Lastly I think he learns best on the field and his playing time is a big help.

   Why I think Jackson is not as viable long term is his offense was already tailor made for him and once his athleticism slips at all he will have issues being more traditional.

[C.Biscuit97]

28 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

I base it on skill set

 

Jackson's game is just different...he is as good as he is ever going to be as a runner and is not that great of a passer

 

Josh Allen's game is evolving as a passer

John, this is just the optimist Bills fan in you.  So Jackson, who has been a better passer in a much tougher college than Allen and a better passer in the nfl, can’t improve but Allen will?  
 

this is always my problem with the all the physical tools, high upside guys who never really had elite production.  People just keep thinking they will automatically take the next step and ignore some real issues.  Some fans try to dismiss the 60% thing thinking it’s just a couple of throws here or there.  Jackson doesn’t have the arm of Allen but he has been better in college and better in the pros.  There’s just a chance he might just be a better player.  And as much as some posters try to dismiss his accomplishments, saying our guy isn’t as good as the league MVP isn’t a bad thing.

 

but let’s load up on offense and see what Allen has.  I 100% believe in Allen’s character and work ethic.  But it’s time to stop making excuses for the highest drafted qb in franchise history while knocking a league MVP.  It’s kinda silly. 

8 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

We do, from time to time, have some blatantly racist stuff on here, mods best efforts not withstanding.  But I fail to see how this op is one of them.  Something can be a mistaken or bad take (which is what I think of the OP) without being racist at all.  Moreover, if there is racism involved in this take, it's not blatant, but implicit.

 

The OP:

I truly think the Bills intentionally put Josh into some tough spots this year and he grew during them. They did not give him the big reciever as a security blanket, he had only small precise recievers which forced him to be more accurate. They called plays that were not one read plays but required him to make decisions during plays, forcing him to grow mentally. Lastly I think he learns best on the field and his playing time is a big help.

   Why I think Jackson is not as viable long term is his offense was already tailor made for him and once his athleticism slips at all he will have issues being more traditional.

Yeah, I don’t think it is racist at all but I do wonder if a 23 year old white qb who won a MVP and Heisman would face the criticism that Jackson has faced.  I honestly don’t remember a MVP, especially one This young, taking as much criticism as Jackson has. 

[CommonCents]

31 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

John, this is just the optimist Bills fan in you.  So Jackson, who has been a better passer in a much tougher college than Allen and a better passer in the nfl, can’t improve but Allen will?  
 

this is always my problem with the all the physical tools, high upside guys who never really had elite production.  People just keep thinking they will automatically take the next step and ignore some real issues.  Some fans try to dismiss the 60% thing thinking it’s just a couple of throws here or there.  Jackson doesn’t have the arm of Allen but he has been better in college and better in the pros.  There’s just a chance he might just be a better player.  And as much as some posters try to dismiss his accomplishments, saying our guy isn’t as good as the league MVP isn’t a bad thing.

 

but let’s load up on offense and see what Allen has.  I 100% believe in Allen’s character and work ethic.  But it’s time to stop making excuses for the highest drafted qb in franchise history while knocking a league MVP.  It’s kinda silly. 

Yeah, I don’t think it is racist at all but I do wonder if a 23 year old white qb who won a MVP and Heisman would face the criticism that Jackson has faced.  I honestly don’t remember a MVP, especially one This young, taking as much criticism as Jackson has. 

It’s the play style not the skin color, some people will never like the dancing around. Imagine, Money Manziel wins the MVP, just as many people would be trashing on him. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

37 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Yeah, I don’t think it is racist at all but I do wonder if a 23 year old white qb who won a MVP and Heisman would face the criticism that Jackson has faced.  I honestly don’t remember a MVP, especially one this young, taking as much criticism as Jackson has. 

 

I think there are possibly components of what's known as "implicit bias", where people channel their subconscious or unacknowledged prejudices into socially acceptable expressions.    I'm trying to think if there has actually been a young white QB who won both NFL MVP early in his career and a Heisman and I can't think of one.  You?   So we can speculate, but we can't really "do the experiment"  I do think there was implicit bias at work when some pundits suggested Jackson should convert to WR or RB, despite the fact that Jackson actually threw a similar number of passes for similar yardage as Josh Rosen Jr year.

Certainly young white Heisman winners such as Tim Tebow and Johnny Manziel faced a lot of criticism for their NFL QB play, but neither of them ever played in the NFL at an MVP level.  The only other joint winner I can think of would be Cam Newton (Heisman 2010, MVP 2015).  By the time Newton won MVP, he was an established player with 5 seasons and 3 probowls under his belt, and any arguments about the sustainability of his playing style were quenched to a low simmer (although, not removed).  Newton had also demonstrated himself to be a more efficient and prolific passer at Auburn before entering the NFL.

 

So anyway: the straightforward and aboveboard reasons to be skeptical of Jackson's longevity as a QB would be that previous QB who ran a lot such as Griffin had their career derailed by injury.  But then, so did Sam Bradford, whom no one has ever accused of being mobile.  The straightforward and aboveboard reasons to be skeptical of Jackson's abilities as a QB would be that he was not an efficient passer in college, with his best completion 59% and some manifest problems in technique.  But of course, the same criticism would apply to Josh Allen, whose running style and size (IMO) makes him more of an injury risk, and Jackson has improved his efficiency to a level that Allen has not yet reached.
 

[Mr. WEO]

1 hour ago, Chicken Boo said:

 

So you're of the thought that we don't have the right staff in place for Allen's development?

 

It's well documented yes

[Reed83HOF]

2 hours ago, Gugny said:

 

Wrong thread!!!

I'm shocked that Hapless knew the words to that song and that band. He seems like more of a Bette Midler/Tina Turner type person

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, Reed83HOF said:

I'm shocked that Hapless knew the words to that song and that band. He seems like more of a Bette Midler/Tina Turner type person

 

! ??

 

Tina Turner: Dope, man

Bette Midler: {shudder} Srlsy, Man?

Johann Sebastian Bach:  THE MAN

 

PS: Love me some Josh Allen but having Bieber as his favorite artist is an undeniable blot on an admirable-seeming character

[Formerly Allan in MD]

14 hours ago, Buffalo Timmy said:

Why I think Jackson is not as viable long term is his offense was already tailor made for him and once his athleticism slips at all he will have issues being more traditional.

You could say that about most any good young athlete.

[C.Biscuit97]

36 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I think there are possibly components of what's known as "implicit bias", where people channel their subconscious or unacknowledged prejudices into socially acceptable expressions.    I'm trying to think if there has actually been a young white QB who won both NFL MVP early in his career and a Heisman and I can't think of one.  You?   So we can speculate, but we can't really "do the experiment"  I do think there was implicit bias at work when some pundits suggested Jackson should convert to WR or RB, despite the fact that Jackson actually threw a similar number of passes for similar yardage as Josh Rosen Jr year.

Certainly young white Heisman winners such as Tim Tebow and Johnny Manziel faced a lot of criticism for their NFL QB play, but neither of them ever played in the NFL at an MVP level.  The only other joint winner I can think of would be Cam Newton (Heisman 2010, MVP 2015).  By the time Newton won MVP, he was an established player with 5 seasons and 3 probowls under his belt, and any arguments about the sustainability of his playing style were quenched to a low simmer (although, not removed).  Newton had also demonstrated himself to be a more efficient and prolific passer at Auburn before entering the NFL.

 

So anyway: the straightforward and aboveboard reasons to be skeptical of Jackson's longevity as a QB would be that previous QB who ran a lot such as Griffin had their career derailed by injury.  But then, so did Sam Bradford, whom no one has ever accused of being mobile.  The straightforward and aboveboard reasons to be skeptical of Jackson's abilities as a QB would be that he was not an efficient passer in college, with his best completion 59% and some manifest problems in technique.  But of course, the same criticism would apply to Josh Allen, whose running style and size (IMO) makes him more of an injury risk, and Jackson has improved his efficiency to a level that Allen has not yet reached.
 

Excellent post. I have zero disagreement. 

[Orlando Buffalo]

9 hours ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

how did ‘because you’re a Bills fan’ not make this list? 

Because I assumed you already knew that!?

2 hours ago, Ethan in Portland said:

This is just a blatantly racist original post. If anything you should have the exact opposite take. Jackson has been a better passer by far and Allen has relied on his athleticism not his passing to win many games. 

The take should be that even if Jackson loses some athletic ability he can still be a great QB with a 6:1 TD:INT ratio and QB rating over 110. Followed by Allen improved from year 1 to year 2 and if he does the Bill's will be fine at QB. But he has a long way to go as we all saw in the Houston game. 

What? A racist post? Seriously dude what is wrong with you.

[Reed83HOF]

26 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

! ??

 

Tina Turner: Dope, man

Bette Midler: {shudder} Srlsy, Man?

Johann Sebastian:  THE MAN

 

PS: Love me some Josh Allen but having Bieber as his favorite artist is an undeniable blot on an admirable-seeming character

I couldn't help it dude! TBH, wasn't sure that I saw you as a Motely fan and then it just seemed like fun to mess with you LOL! 

[Orlando Buffalo]

11 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Fair points but you do realize Jackson played in a pro style system in college?

 

again my point isn’t to crap on Allen.  I just don’t understand why people out so quick to discredit Jackson.  Maybe he is just a good qb.  Dude has one of the best resumes of any 2nd year qb of all time. 

You ask a good question about why I discredit a dude who just justifiably won MVP. I think his unreal athleticism will slip quickly- and when he can not run like Barry it will cause him to have issues. I have many examples, but if his athleticism stays he might be one for the ages.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 minute ago, Buffalo Timmy said:

You ask a good question about why I discredit a dude who just justifiably won MVP. I think his unreal athleticism will slip quickly- and when he can not run like Barry it will cause him to have issues. I have many examples, but if his athleticism stays he might be one for the ages.

 

I understand your viewpoint. 

Counterpoints:

1) elite RBs who take care of their bodies are now playing at pretty durn elite levels into their late 20's/30s - McCoy, Ingram, AP, etc.

2) at present, Lamar Jackson's package as a QB is elite athleticism (running, extending plays) coupled with efficient passing that has some limitations.

 

It is entirely possible that, just as we hope Allen will develop as a passer and overcome some of his limitations, Jackson may also develop as a passer and overcome his limitations.

[Chicken Boo]

1 hour ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

It's well documented yes

 

I don't disagree.

[1ManRaid]

I thought this was going to be about how Lamar got exposed by the Bills and Titans, and how the rest of the league was going to catch on like they did against the Wildcat.

 

Rather it's just "in an undetermined number of years, Lamar isn't going to run as fast so he'll be a trash QB and make no progress as a passer" while assuming our running QB does make progress.

 

You outta be hired in the scouting department!

[Madbillsfan]

15 hours ago, Buffalo Timmy said:

I truly think the Bills intentionally put Josh into some tough spots this year and he grew during them. They did not give him the big reciever as a security blanket, he had only small precise recievers which forced him to be more accurate. They called plays that were not one read plays but required him to make decisions during plays, forcing him to grow mentally. Lastly I think he learns best on the field and his playing time is a big help.

   Why I think Jackson is not as viable long term is his offense was already tailor made for him and once his athleticism slips at all he will have issues being more traditional.

So well thought out. All these excuses for JA’s non success and 1 great reason for LJ’s non failure. 

[Jay_Fixit]

16 hours ago, BigBillsFan said:

Jackson is now a proven commodity, Josh isn't. Lamar might not last from injury, Allen might not because of ability to throw.

 

Vick could have played 8 years at a high level, we'll learn about Jackson but he's already viable, a freaking monster on the football field. If Josh can learn to make the right throws he'll be more viable, but the same could be said of Jackson. Jackson has shown more with his arm than Allen.

 

Jackson showed more in the 1st 2 games of 2019 than any of Josh's games. The 1st with his arm and 2nd with both arm and legs.

Vick was less accurate than Josh is and I’m not sure Jackson is any more accurate.. 

 

Ability to throw? LOL.

 

Josh’s decision making and mechanics are his issue.