Reasons I think Josh is more viable long term than Jackson

[Chicken Boo]

The Bills have a tough schedule this year.  They're going up against some of the NFL's best.  We're going to see what Josh is made of.  It's year 3.

[Big Turk]

2 hours ago, Buffalo Timmy said:

I truly think the Bills intentionally put Josh into some tough spots this year and he grew during them. They did not give him the big reciever as a security blanket, he had only small precise recievers which forced him to be more accurate. They called plays that were not one read plays but required him to make decisions during plays, forcing him to grow mentally. Lastly I think he learns best on the field and his playing time is a big help.

   Why I think Jackson is not as viable long term is his offense was already tailor made for him and once his athleticism slips at all he will have issues being more traditional.

 

Something I noticed while watching the Super Bowl.  Jimmy G can be very inaccurate as a passer at times as well in terms of ball placement, but Shanahan schemes players wide open a lot so he is throwing to mostly guys running open so his throws are mostly caught because there is nobody around the receivers.

 

Watching him, he puts up good numbers but I am not sure if I am impressed with him as a QB.  Seems he is thriving off a scheme hiding his poor ball placement which would be a problem in most offenses.

Edited February 5, 2020 by matter2003

[Buffalo_Stampede]

1 minute ago, Chicken Boo said:

The Bills have a tough schedule this year.  They're going up against some of the NFL's best.  We're going to see what Josh is made of.  It's year 3.

Yeah but the front office must do their job. I think they will. The Bills should be a deeper and more talented football team next year.

[Magox]

27 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Let me try to spell it out.

Both Allen and Jackson are limited as passers right now.  Their limitations are different.
 

You are saying that Josh will continue to develop and "become the better QB" while dismissing the possibility that Jackson (who by his teammates and coaches accounts is football-intelligent and a very hard worker) will also continue to develop.

 

That's what's there, no reaching necessary.

 

Ok, let me try to spell it out.

 

That is my opinion.  I am not tearing anyone down, I am giving my opinion to what I believe to be the case.  Somehow you believe by me listing what I believe Allen's positive traits is somehow a dig on Lamar is reaching to say the least.   You're barking up the wrong tree.

Edited February 5, 2020 by Magox

[jletha]

14 minutes ago, matter2003 said:

 

Something I noticed while watching the Super Bowl.  Jimmy G can be very inaccurate as a passer at times as well in terms of ball placement, but Shanahan schemes players wide open a lot so he is throwing to mostly guys running open so his throws are mostly caught because there is nobody around the receivers.

 

Watching him, he puts up good numbers but I am not sure if I am impressed with him as a QB.  Seems he is thriving off a scheme hiding his poor ball placement which would be a problem in most offenses.

The thing is we would all love for Josh to have the season Jimmy had this year in 2020. We realistically cant expect Josh to take a massive leap. He will more than likely remain inconsistent with accuracy but 60% isnt out of the question.

 

Jimmy wasnt great al the time this year but he did have 3 300-yard/4 TD games which isnt something Josh can claim. With Josh we get the lows and the mediocres to good but we have very seldomly gotten great and even when it feels great (Dallas, Miami) it still is just at the top end of QB play.

 

Even getting a few of those great games from Josh next year and slightly raising his floor would make us real contenders. Some of that is certainly on the FO finding ball catchers and on Daboll schemeing it up but most of it falls on Josh.

Edited February 5, 2020 by jletha

[dayman]

Honestly, the days of 20 year franchise QBs may be ending. If either can play well through the second contract that will be a good career.

[Trogdor]

32 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

If he painted his face blue, could you distinguish?

Papa Smurf has that HoF hand size. Beasley looks like he needs help holding his burger in comparison.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Just now, Trogdor said:

Papa Smurf has that HoF hand size. Beasley looks like he needs help holding his burger in comparison.

 

May need help holding his burger, but he's hung onto the football (no fumbles) for the last 4 years

[Trogdor]

31 minutes ago, matter2003 said:

 

Something I noticed while watching the Super Bowl.  Jimmy G can be very inaccurate as a passer at times as well in terms of ball placement, but Shanahan schemes players wide open a lot so he is throwing to mostly guys running open so his throws are mostly caught because there is nobody around the receivers.

 

Watching him, he puts up good numbers but I am not sure if I am impressed with him as a QB.  Seems he is thriving off a scheme hiding his poor ball placement which would be a problem in most offenses.

The problem with Allen is that he doesn't see them when this happens. His awareness needs to improve and the deep balls to the FB need to stop.

Just now, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

May need help holding his burger, but he's hung onto the football (no fumbles) for the last 4 years

Makes you wonder about how important hand size is. I think some of it is flexibility with the index and thumb. HoF receivers are always showing off how far past the L shape they go and I've seen similar traits in Rugby.

[Buffalo Junction]

1 hour ago, blacklabel said:

I think Josh will be fine. I think we're all gonna have to live with some of his heroball stuff from time to time, that's just a part of him. And he might not ever be a guy who completes 67% of his passes. But as one of his coaches at Wyoming said, that stuff is offset by his playmaking ability and the fact that I truly feel like he gives the team a chance to win every game. It might not be too pretty through three quarters but it seems like a switch gets flipped in the fourth and he shows what he can really do.

 

And this here is a personal gripe about the media but I hate narratives, all of 'em! With Lamar, every dingbat with a microphone is raving about his running ability, getting all giddy whenever he takes off, woo hoo, yay, so awesome! Josh does it and he's just as effective but they'll piss and moan and say, "Oh dear golly gee whizz, Cotton! He gots to be careful! His coaches don't want him getting the ouchies out there! He's a reckless player and he's putting himself and his team at risk. What a selfish poop-weasel! How dare he! Oh what's this? Lamar Jackson just ran 9000 yards and took 42 career-ending hits but BAH GAWD KING HE IS AMAZING!!!" I hate the GD media. 

I think that narrative is different because Jackson is more elusive and avoids most of the big hits. Josh on the other hand will occasionally lower his shoulder and play fullback. After seeing Cam Newton have injuries from that the media speculates. Big Ben was often banged up as well when he ran more early in his career. There’s a more recent comparable player for Allen. Where as folks just don’t remember Vick getting injured.

[Alphadawg7]

3 hours ago, Buffalo Timmy said:

I truly think the Bills intentionally put Josh into some tough spots this year and he grew during them. They did not give him the big reciever as a security blanket, he had only small precise recievers which forced him to be more accurate. They called plays that were not one read plays but required him to make decisions during plays, forcing him to grow mentally. Lastly I think he learns best on the field and his playing time is a big help.

   Why I think Jackson is not as viable long term is his offense was already tailor made for him and once his athleticism slips at all he will have issues being more traditional.

1.  They did not intentionally not give him a big receiver.  They don’t grow in trees.  
 

2.  They didn’t give him smurf receivers strategically to increase accuracy.  
 

3.  They didn’t call plays to teach lessons.  They ran their offense and expect him to execute it.  
 

Now I do agree I feel Josh has a higher ceiling still than Lamar.  The problem with Lamar is he is not a complete QB either, and he had a tremendous amount of success in a unique gimmick offense.  
 

Historically, the NFL catches up with that and it can some times take part of a full season, a whole season, even more than that.  But once they do, then that QB is going to struggle to find the consistency anymore.  
 

And if you look at this year, Buffalo put a pretty good blue print down and Balt wasn’t the same unstoppable force after that.  I actually think Balt is going to regress some next year just like McShay and the Rams did once teams figured them out because Goff isn’t as great of a QB as his 2 year run suggested.  Bears and Pats put blue print down how to limit the offense and now they are a ballooned salary cap and no where near the juggernaught they were.

 

So once teams figure out how to limit Lamar as a runner (like teams did with Vick), is he good enough as a true QB to adjust and keep being as effective?  I don’t think he is personally, at least not right now. 
 

Josh has all the tools, intelligence, leadership, work ethic, etc you want in a QB.  But he also needs to put it all together consistently on the field.  The main reason I think Josh ends up with the longer and better career still is because he has made tremendous strides in 2 years behind the only high level coaching he’s ever had.  He played at JUCO and Wyoming, the level of coaching he has had was no where near what he is getting now and he’s responded with significant growth.  That tells me he can and should keep growing into his potential.  
 

I mean he was second only to Lamar from week 5 until the end of the season with 21 TDs and only 3 turnovers.  He is a thrower first, not a runner.  He has legs as a massive secondary weapon, not a primary.  

Lamar and the Ravens are focusing on both running and passing, and that could further affect Lamars growth as a passer too.

Edited February 5, 2020 by Alphadawg7

[C.Biscuit97]

When they came out in the draft, I had Allen and Jackson ranked together. Good physical tools, worries about them being consistent NFL passers.
 

Im not trying to knock Allen here.  I did see some improvement.  My problem with this comparison is some fans always want to knock Jackson.  They said he should switch positions.  They started a thread about  him struggling in a pro bowl drill.  Then he won MVP in the pro bowl.

 

jackson won the Heisman, while Allen wasn’t 1st or 2nd team in the MWC.  Jackson helped the Ravens make the playoffs 2 years in a row. He was the MVP this year.  Why can’t he improve but Allen can?  
 

Honestly, I hope both players become great qbs. It makes for a better nfl.  But my biggest problem with the Allen pick is it is a projection type pick.  We are expecting him to be a better player than he was in the MWC.  At this point, I don’t think any rational fan can argue that Jackson hasn’t had the better career.  Could Allen pass him one day? Sure but it’s just guessing at this point.  

[Fan in San Diego]

JA needs more quality WR's. Beasley is awesome but we need two more taller versions of him. I liked how Sammy Watkins came back to make a drive saving catch after Mahommes got flushed out to his right in the SB. Give JA more talent around him and he will be fine. Give me another bruiser RB like Henry in Tennessee since I'm ordering up offensive weapons.

On the defense we need another pass rushing DE and run stuffing DT. Another awesome CB would be great as well.

 

 

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

3 hours ago, Buffalo Timmy said:

I truly think the Bills intentionally put Josh into some tough spots this year and he grew during them. They did not give him the big reciever as a security blanket, he had only small precise recievers which forced him to be more accurate. They called plays that were not one read plays but required him to make decisions during plays, forcing him to grow mentally. Lastly I think he learns best on the field and his playing time is a big help.

   Why I think Jackson is not as viable long term is his offense was already tailor made for him and once his athleticism slips at all he will have issues being more traditional.

 

I think your logic is a bit of a stretch.  IMO the reason they went with the receivers they did and not play say a Duke more, or draft a WR last year is they knew Josh is still learning and didn't want to burden him with someone else who is lacking experience too and may add to confusion for Josh.  I think that may also be the reaso nthey stuck wih Foster as long as they did as he and Allen had some chemistry for the year prior.

[C.Biscuit97]

Just now, Alphadawg7 said:

1.  They did not intentionally not give him a big receiver.  They don’t grow in trees.  
 

2.  They didn’t give him smurf receivers strategically to increase accuracy.  
 

3.  They didn’t call plays to teach lessons.  They ran their offense and expect him to execute it.  
 

Now I do agree I feel Josh has a higher ceiling still than Lamar.  The problem with Lamar is he is not a complete QB either, and he had a tremendous amount of success in a unique gimmick offense.  
 

Historically, the NFL catches up with that and it can some times take part of a full season, a whole season, even more than that.  But once they do, then that QB is going to struggle to find the consistency anymore.  
 

And if you look at this year, Buffalo put a pretty good blue print down and Balt wasn’t the same unstoppable force after that.  I actually think Balt is going to regress some next year just like McShay and the Rams did once teams figured them out because Goff isn’t as great of a QB as his 2 year run suggested.  Bears and Pats put blue print down how to limit the offense and now they are a ballooned salary cap and no where near the juggernaught they were.

 

So once teams figure out how to limit Lamar as a runner (like teams did with Vick), is he good enough as a true QB to adjust and keep being as effective?  I don’t think he is personally, at least not right now. 

Fair points but you do realize Jackson played in a pro style system in college?

 

again my point isn’t to crap on Allen.  I just don’t understand why people out so quick to discredit Jackson.  Maybe he is just a good qb.  Dude has one of the best resumes of any 2nd year qb of all time. 

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Let me try to spell it out.

Both Allen and Jackson are limited as passers right now.  Their limitations are different.
 

You are saying that Josh will continue to develop and "become the better QB" while dismissing the possibility that Jackson (who by his teammates and coaches accounts is football-intelligent and a very hard worker) will also continue to develop.

 

That's what's there, no reaching necessary.

Good post and it sums up my feelings.  
 

hopefully, they both become better passers.  But let’s not act like the Ravens have a super amazing receiving core either.  Their top wr is 5’9” 170 lbs and missed a bunch of games.  Their second wr was Willie Freakin’ Snead too, 

[zow2]

Jackson just had one of the best seasons a QB can have and the OP is wondering if he will be viable? Cmon.  

[Alphadawg7]

3 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Fair points but you do realize Jackson played in a pro style system in college?

 

again my point isn’t to crap on Allen.  I just don’t understand why people out so quick to discredit Jackson.  Maybe he is just a good qb.  Dude has one of the best resumes of any 2nd year qb of all time. , 

I am not dumping on Lamar, I liked him coming out and enjoy him in the NFL.  
 

But...I have seen this story many times where a running QB takes the league by storm early but then the league catches up with them.  RG3, Vick, Cunningham, V Young, Kap, etc all had a lot of success early.  Some were looked at as the future of the NFL.  
 

Ive also seen new style offenses have early success because the NFL didn’t have it figured out yet, and that includes the Rams I just mentioned but also Tim Tebow Broncos who even won a playoff game despite Tebow being about the worst QB in the league.  It briefly worked because it was unique and and confusing to defend until the league figured it out.  
 

Doesn’t mean Lamar can’t keep getting better.  But what I am saying is that he is not a good passer yet, and his success is currently tied to the unique system they run.  So I have yet to see a QB in the NFL have sustained success this way because the NFL will always figure out how to defend their system (and I think they already have because of our game against them) at some point.  Lamar is going to have to become a good passer in order to sustain success in my opinion because the new unique system based success is always short lived.

 

I have nothing against Lamar though, I just am skeptical this style of offense can be maintained to the same level of success he had this year.

[C.Biscuit97]

Just now, Alphadawg7 said:

I am not dumping on Lamar, I liked him coming out and enjoy him in the NFL.  
 

But...I have seen this story many times where a running QB takes the league by storm early but then the league catches up with them.  RG3, Vick, Cunningham, V Young, Kap, etc all had a lot of success early.  Some were looked at as the future of the NFL.  
 

Ive also seen new style offenses have early success because the NFL didn’t have it figured out yet, and that includes the Rams I just mentioned but also Tim Tebow Broncos who even won a playoff game despite Tebow being about the worst QB in the league.  It briefly worked because it was unique and and confusing to defend until the league figured it out.  
 

Doesn’t mean Lamar can’t keep getting better.  But what I am saying is that he is not a good passer yet, and his success is currently tied to the unique system they run.  So I have yet to see a QB in the NFL have sustained success this way because the NFL will always figure out how to defend their system (and I think they already have because of our game against them) at some point.  Lamar is going to have to become a good passer in order to sustain success in my opinion because the new unique system based success is always short lived.

 

I have nothing against Lamar though, I just am skeptical this style of offense can be maintained to the same level of success he had this year.

Fair points.  My counter would be

 

1 - Jackson had a better passing season as a 2nd year guy than any of those players

 

2 - he was an amazing college player. Again, maybe he is just good.

 

2 - there are factors why some of those guys flamed out. RG3 got hurt.  We know the Kaepernick story.  Dog killer Vick actually became a better passer under Reid late in his career.  Cunningham played with crappy skill players (look at those Eagles rosters) and then led one of the greatest teams to never win a SB late in his career.

 

i guess the other counter is where is the track record of a prospect like Allen succeeding?  A good but not great player in smaller conference who never hit 60% passing?  I think Allen has a great work ethic and is a good leader.  But that’s what scares me most.

 

side note, his mom’s name is Lavonne Allen. 

[Gugny]

27 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

side note, his mom’s name is Lavonne Allen. 

 

Weird!  That's his agent's name, too!

[Mickey]

3 hours ago, Don Otreply said:

Being that our Josh is still ranked pretty low on nfl qb scale,  that is a bit of an “if/maybe”  Allen has good up side I think we all see that. During this upcoming season JA needs to take a big step with his consistency and ball security, if that happens all is good, but if he is no better than this past season we likely start the early portion of the process of finding his replacement. Josh has two years max to prove he is the one, jmo.

 

Go Bills!!!

 

Whose scale? The stat obsessed, rotisserie baseball fanatics that think DVOARTxY(Yac)/V2-{x/z) percentage is more important than, you know, winning games? 

A raw, small town college QB in just his second year secures a playoff spot with two weeks to spare and has his team within a few plays of winning the division and securing a bye has proved that he is in fact the one. 

 

In the next two years if all Josh manages to do is, with the same stats, get us in to the playoffs two more times so that he has done it in three consecutive seasons, what then? Since that seems not to be good enough to prove that "he is in fact the one", will people be calling for the team to cut a QB who gets his team into the playoffs three years in a row? 

 

The argument is over, all those who still can't get over the fact that we didn't draft Rosen or Rudolph or whatever just have to accept reality: Josh is our franchise QB.