Orlando Buffalo Posted February 5, 2020 Posted February 5, 2020 I truly think the Bills intentionally put Josh into some tough spots this year and he grew during them. They did not give him the big reciever as a security blanket, he had only small precise recievers which forced him to be more accurate. They called plays that were not one read plays but required him to make decisions during plays, forcing him to grow mentally. Lastly I think he learns best on the field and his playing time is a big help. Why I think Jackson is not as viable long term is his offense was already tailor made for him and once his athleticism slips at all he will have issues being more traditional. 2 1
Hardhatharry Posted February 5, 2020 Posted February 5, 2020 I dont know if either will be viable long term... 2
Greg S Posted February 5, 2020 Posted February 5, 2020 12 minutes ago, Buffalo Timmy said: I truly think the Bills intentionally put Josh into some tough spots this year and he grew during them. They did not give him the big reciever as a security blanket, he had only small precise recievers which forced him to be more accurate. They called plays that were not one read plays but required him to make decisions during plays, forcing him to grow mentally. Lastly I think he learns best on the field and his playing time is a big help. Why I think Jackson is not as viable long term is his offense was already tailor made for him and once his athleticism slips at all he will have issues being more traditional. You could say the same about Allen. He is a very good athlete but he still needs to become a better QB. Playing the pocket, going thru his reads and making good decisions in where to go with the ball. He needs to protect the ball better (INT's and fumbles). He was a big reason why the Bills didn't get a chance to play at KC in the divisional round. Hoping he can take the next step next season in becoming a very good/great QB. 3
Magox Posted February 5, 2020 Posted February 5, 2020 It's a tough argument to make based off of the fact that Lamar has already achieved what QB's want to strive for in regards to his stats and what he was able to accomplish this year. And Josh hasn't done it yet. With that said, I do believe Josh will be the better QB over the long-term. I believe Josh is a much better pure passer than Lamar. Lamar's passing success and he did have lots of success with it is all predicated off the play action and defenses extreme focus to stop the run game allowing plays to be had down the field. I do think there is a book on him now, the Bills showed a way and the Titans replicated it. I don't believe Lamar will be as successful next year as this past year. I could very well be wrong, he totally surprised me with what he accomplished and he may come back even a better version of himself this next coming year, but I just believe that he has a low ceiling for being a pure passer. In other words, if you jump out to a lead against them and knock them off their preferred style I just think he is very limited. Josh, hasn't shown that he can be that pure passer yet. But I think it's in him. He was very raw coming in and in just about every passing metric he has improved and when I look at his intelligence, willingness to learn, desire, passion, physical tools and the fact that he has already shown good improvements, I just believe that he is going to work his tail off on his mechanics, deep ball, ball protection and gain even more experience and will become a borderline pro bowler who will once again lead the team to the playoffs and from my view likely that they win at least one playoff game. I think Josh will end up being the better QB.
Don Otreply Posted February 5, 2020 Posted February 5, 2020 Being that our Josh is still ranked pretty low on nfl qb scale, that is a bit of an “if/maybe” Allen has good up side I think we all see that. During this upcoming season JA needs to take a big step with his consistency and ball security, if that happens all is good, but if he is no better than this past season we likely start the early portion of the process of finding his replacement. Josh has two years max to prove he is the one, jmo. Go Bills!!! 1
BigBillsFan Posted February 5, 2020 Posted February 5, 2020 (edited) Jackson is now a proven commodity, Josh isn't. Lamar might not last from injury, Allen might not because of ability to throw. Vick could have played 8 years at a high level, we'll learn about Jackson but he's already viable, a freaking monster on the football field. If Josh can learn to make the right throws he'll be more viable, but the same could be said of Jackson. Jackson has shown more with his arm than Allen. Jackson showed more in the 1st 2 games of 2019 than any of Josh's games. The 1st with his arm and 2nd with both arm and legs. Edited February 5, 2020 by BigBillsFan 1 3
ALLEN1QB Posted February 5, 2020 Posted February 5, 2020 We have not even scratched the surface of Allen's talent. This guy is going to be something special. Buffalo will have a championship in the next 5 years. 4 1 1
RalphWilson'sNewWar Posted February 5, 2020 Posted February 5, 2020 Knee Jerk Answer for me was, ‘Because I’m a Bills fan and not a Ravens fan.’ ?? 4 2
Seasons1992 Posted February 5, 2020 Posted February 5, 2020 18 minutes ago, ALLEN1QB said: We have not even scratched the surface of Allen's talent. This guy is going to be something special. Buffalo will have a championship in the next 5 years. You can't post about your own potential, Josh......learn from Fitzy and hide in the shadows on this board. 4 1
Hapless Bills Fan Posted February 5, 2020 Posted February 5, 2020 1 hour ago, Magox said: It's a tough argument to make based off of the fact that Lamar has already achieved what QB's want to strive for in regards to his stats and what he was able to accomplish this year. And Josh hasn't done it yet. Jackson actually hasn't done this. TD, good. TD/INT good. YPA, good. Completion percentage, Good - very efficient with the passing he attempts. The box he doesn't check is the amount of passing offense he generates per game, about 209 yds. To be functional as an NFL QB per se, needs to be higher, >220 yds or so. The reason he's league MVP of course, is that he more than makes up with it with his legs - he may be a generational talent at RB who can also play QB at a capable level. The Bills game and playoffs turned up a weak spot in his game as a QB, so the next step in the "chess match" is 1) can he "level up" and shore up that weakness? 2) how many of the teams they face can actually execute the effective defensive game plans that shut him down? 1 hour ago, Magox said: With that said, I do believe Josh will be the better QB over the long-term. I believe Josh is a much better pure passer than Lamar. Lamar's passing success and he did have lots of success with it is all predicated off the play action and defenses extreme focus to stop the run game allowing plays to be had down the field. I do think there is a book on him now, the Bills showed a way and the Titans replicated it. I don't believe Lamar will be as successful next year as this past year. I could very well be wrong, he totally surprised me with what he accomplished and he may come back even a better version of himself this next coming year, but I just believe that he has a low ceiling for being a pure passer. In other words, if you jump out to a lead against them and knock them off their preferred style I just think he is very limited. Well, people say the same thing about Josh - that he is limited as a passer and will never overcome his tendency to be erratic or inaccurate under pressure. And it's a point that the best defenses turned up a weak spot in Josh's game, that being the deep throw to overcome Blitz0 (and the lack of a screen game as an alternative counter). So now the next step in the "chess match" for Josh is 1) can he "level up" and shore up that weakness 2) how many of the teams they face can actually execute the game plans that shut him down? The Texans were able to do so to some extent. It's not uncommon for young QB in their 2nd season to show both promise and flaws. Some QB continue to develop and some don't - no matter how we try to read and re-read the tea leaves, it's usually a wait-and-see game. 1 hour ago, Magox said: Josh, hasn't shown that he can be that pure passer yet. But I think it's in him. He was very raw coming in and in just about every passing metric he has improved and when I look at his intelligence, willingness to learn, desire, passion, physical tools and the fact that he has already shown good improvements, I just believe that he is going to work his tail off on his mechanics, deep ball, ball protection and gain even more experience and will become a borderline pro bowler who will once again lead the team to the playoffs and from my view likely that they win at least one playoff game. I think Josh will end up being the better QB. I'll be happy if Josh just turns out to be a good QB who can lead the team to a Championship. IMO all the same traits - intelligence, willingness to learn, desire, passion, physical tools and has shown good improvements - are true of Lamar Jackson. I guess I don't understand the desire to put one guy down in order to puff another guy up. 2
RoyBatty is alive Posted February 5, 2020 Posted February 5, 2020 I dont think Jackson is a long term answer but I dont see how that refelcts at all on Josh. The Baltimore offense was a hybrid last year, run first with a lot of options. It is not a typical NFL offense and defenses had trouble. It is just like Army or Navy in college, they run unique offenses which typically superior teams have a difficult time defending becuase they never play against. In the NFL it wil take some time but other teams will learn how to scheme and defend better against Baltimore,
Magox Posted February 5, 2020 Posted February 5, 2020 8 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: Jackson actually hasn't done this. TD, good. TD/INT good. YPA, good. Completion percentage, Good - very efficient with the passing he attempts. The box he doesn't check is the amount of passing offense he generates per game, about 209 yds. To be functional as an NFL QB per se, needs to be higher, >220 yds or so. The reason he's league MVP of course, is that he more than makes up with it with his legs - he may be a generational talent at RB who can also play QB at a capable level. The Bills game and playoffs turned up a weak spot in his game as a QB, so the next step in the "chess match" is 1) can he "level up" and shore up that weakness? 2) how many of the teams they face can actually execute the effective defensive game plans that shut him down? Well, people say the same thing about Josh - that he is limited as a passer and will never overcome his tendency to be erratic or inaccurate under pressure. And it's a point that the best defenses turned up a weak spot in Josh's game, that being the deep throw to overcome Blitz0 (and the lack of a screen game as an alternative counter). So now the next step in the "chess match" for Josh is 1) can he "level up" and shore up that weakness 2) how many of the teams they face can actually execute the game plans that shut him down? The Texans were able to do so to some extent. It's not uncommon for young QB in their 2nd season to show both promise and flaws. Some QB continue to develop and some don't - no matter how we try to read and re-read the tea leaves, it's usually a wait-and-see game. I'll be happy if Josh just turns out to be a good QB who can lead the team to a Championship. IMO all the same traits - intelligence, willingness to learn, desire, passion, physical tools and has shown good improvements - are true of Lamar Jackson. I guess I don't understand the desire to put one guy down in order to puff another guy up. Who is putting a guy down? I think Lamar is limited as a pure passer and that Josh will end up being the better QB. You're reaching for something that isn't there. 1
Hapless Bills Fan Posted February 5, 2020 Posted February 5, 2020 2 hours ago, Buffalo Timmy said: I truly think the Bills intentionally put Josh into some tough spots this year and he grew during them. They did not give him the big reciever as a security blanket, he had only small precise recievers which forced him to be more accurate. They called plays that were not one read plays but required him to make decisions during plays, forcing him to grow mentally. Lastly I think he learns best on the field and his playing time is a big help. Why I think Jackson is not as viable long term is his offense was already tailor made for him and once his athleticism slips at all he will have issues being more traditional. You know, I'd actually like to believe the Bills are intentionally following some path, any path, for Josh's development. But I can't rid my mind of the notion that the Bills have tried twice to give Josh a big receiver as a security blanket - once by trading a 3rd for former 1st round pick Kelvin Benjamin, last off season by signing Tyler Kroft who they hoped could emerge as a legit starting TE. They also traded up to draft a WR they hoped would become a legit top NFL WR in Zay Jones (and he is 6'2", 200 lbs so not a smurf), who was the NCAA DI single-season and career leader in receptions. It's not that they intentionally didn't give Josh a big receiver security blanket. It's that their attempts to do so have struck out. It's true that the Bills are asking Josh to run an offense that several vet players from multiple other teams describe as "the most complex I've ever seen", but again - I'm not sure that's intentional or the best path for his development vs Daboll not seeing another way to proceed. Josh is apparently very intelligent and probably "gets it" in the classroom or when watching film, but being able to execute on the field is a different matter. One "watchout" for me from the Peterman debacle is that I think our coaches are susceptible to being "snookered" by the difference between classroom/practice smart and ability to execute in real time. It's a legitimate alternative path to initially simplify, streamline, and tailor the offense to the QB's abilities, then add in complexities as he's ready. 2
BBills88 Posted February 5, 2020 Posted February 5, 2020 The league has a way of catching up to players, and schemes. There is 2 years worth of tape on Jackson And Allen. We will see how next season begins and ends. 2
Hapless Bills Fan Posted February 5, 2020 Posted February 5, 2020 8 minutes ago, Magox said: Who is putting a guy down? I think Lamar is limited as a pure passer and that Josh will end up being the better QB. You're reaching for something that isn't there. Let me try to spell it out. Both Allen and Jackson are limited as passers right now. Their limitations are different. You are saying that Josh will continue to develop and "become the better QB" while dismissing the possibility that Jackson (who by his teammates and coaches accounts is football-intelligent and a very hard worker) will also continue to develop. That's what's there, no reaching necessary. 1 1
blacklabel Posted February 5, 2020 Posted February 5, 2020 I think Josh will be fine. I think we're all gonna have to live with some of his heroball stuff from time to time, that's just a part of him. And he might not ever be a guy who completes 67% of his passes. But as one of his coaches at Wyoming said, that stuff is offset by his playmaking ability and the fact that I truly feel like he gives the team a chance to win every game. It might not be too pretty through three quarters but it seems like a switch gets flipped in the fourth and he shows what he can really do. And this here is a personal gripe about the media but I hate narratives, all of 'em! With Lamar, every dingbat with a microphone is raving about his running ability, getting all giddy whenever he takes off, woo hoo, yay, so awesome! Josh does it and he's just as effective but they'll piss and moan and say, "Oh dear golly gee whizz, Cotton! He gots to be careful! His coaches don't want him getting the ouchies out there! He's a reckless player and he's putting himself and his team at risk. What a selfish poop-weasel! How dare he! Oh what's this? Lamar Jackson just ran 9000 yards and took 42 career-ending hits but BAH GAWD KING HE IS AMAZING!!!" I hate the GD media.
Don Otreply Posted February 5, 2020 Posted February 5, 2020 1 hour ago, Mr. WEO said: "small precise receivers"? You know, smurfs, although I don’t believe there is a metric for smurfs... 1
Seasons1992 Posted February 5, 2020 Posted February 5, 2020 9 minutes ago, Don Otreply said: You know, smurfs, although I don’t believe there is a metric for smurfs... Would ya? 1
Hapless Bills Fan Posted February 5, 2020 Posted February 5, 2020 11 minutes ago, Don Otreply said: You know, smurfs, although I don’t believe there is a metric for smurfs... If he painted his face blue, could you distinguish? 3
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