Scharfenberger to close Buffalo's Christ the King Seminary

[Gray Beard]

4 minutes ago, Augie said:

 

All of the bad stuff is real, and I hate it. I hate the acts, I hate the damage done and I hate the coverups. Words cannot express this adequately. 

 

Another regret I have is the pain to all the very decent people who get grouped in unfairly. We have a couple dear friends who are Catholic priests. We rented a house from one while my son finished his last year of HS, and went to Spain with another last fall. Amazing people. They are extremely vocal in their feelings on this matter, but they get lumped in in the eyes of some people, and that’s just wrong. 

 

Life is complicated. 

 

 

I believe that the vast majority of the priests are good people who truly believe and want to help.  It’s a shame that suspicion and callousness has caused people to paint them all as tainted.  

 

Personally, I have had a hard time with the rules and rituals for a long, long time.  That has turned me away from organized religion more than the scandals. 

[Augie]

1 minute ago, GoBills808 said:

Personally I feel the pain of a few Catholics getting painted by too wide a brush is a pittance to the pain of priests ***** little boys who trusted them.

 

And THAT is why I say life is complicated. I can feel for ALL the innocent people here.

 

The way you worded this makes me wonder if you are trying to compare things here. Yes, there are degrees, as is usually the case in life.  

[Gray Beard]

20 minutes ago, RochesterRob said:

  I don't think that anybody would say that bad decisions were not made by the Church.  I would say fix the problems and move on.  Let married men become priests and possibly women as well.  Some say once you pick and choose what you want to practice that you no longer have the church you started out with.  I don't know that I agree with that.  It was always said that the Church forbade marriage for priests because it would make church assets subject to divorce settlement.  I don't know how much I believe that as women had little social standing prior to the 19th Century.  Anyways, here we are in 2020 and before it gets done there will be little in the way of assets to go for divorces.  I don't know how many riches the Church needs in the 21st Century anyways.  It would be one thing if they were used for the poor or education but I see little of that done.  The existence of the Catholic Church was a bulwark that protected quite a number of traditional social ideas and actually a few modern ones.  Would they be protected in another system as well?  Would there be any less persecution?  

Allowing priests to be married would be the best thing they could do. I think that many priests are hiding something.  Sexual, alcohol, or other problems.  If priests were allowed to be married, a larger pool of candidates would become available, and the ones with problems could be weeded out without fear of reducing the ranks as much. 

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, Augie said:

 

And THAT is why I say life is complicated. I can feel for ALL the innocent people here.

 

The way you worded this makes me wonder if you are trying to compare things here. Yes, there are degrees, as is usually the case in life.  

I guess that's the difference, then. You say life is complicated and I don't, when it comes to this kind of stuff.

 

YOU made it a point to bring up the good Catholics who are lumped in with the bad ones. That is YOUR comparison. I don't need one: I can safely say ***** the Catholic Church and their followers who have the unmitigated gall to feel some indignation about the reasons why that might be the case.

[Augie]

8 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

I guess that's the difference, then. You say life is complicated and I don't, when it comes to this kind of stuff.

 

YOU made it a point to bring up the good Catholics who are lumped in with the bad ones. That is YOUR comparison. I don't need one: I can safely say ***** the Catholic Church and their followers who have the unmitigated gall to feel some indignation about the reasons why that might be the case.

 

Well, that is telling in many ways, but I’m not going down that rabbit hole here.  Who said anyone has “the unmitigated gall to feel some indignation about the reasons why that might be the case.”  Newsflash, there ARE innocent people lumped in here. They are just as appalled as the rest of us. 

 

This will head nowhere rational or good, so I’m out for now. 

[ALF]

There should be no statute of limitations for the crimes these priests , bishops  on up . Clean house once and for all and maybe the Church will recover from this disaster.

[RochesterRob]

1 hour ago, ALF said:

There should be no statute of limitations for the crimes these priests , bishops  on up . Clean house once and for all and maybe the Church will recover from this disaster.

For the vast majority of us we should be looking forward.  Some priest that diddled some boy back in 1955 or 1960 at the very least has one foot and soon to be two feet in the grave.  There is nothing that any of us here can do about it short of taking the law into our own hands.  Would we be so fired up to drag a one time Cub Scout leader that had been accused of violating a half dozen, one dozen, or more young boys through the same type of punishment.  The Church survived scandal such as selling indulgences and The Inquisition because humanity willed its way forward.  It's time to push forward once again.  

[sherpa]

7 hours ago, RochesterRob said:

    It was always said that the Church forbade marriage for priests because it would make church assets subject to divorce settlement.  I don't know how much I believe that as women had little social standing prior to the 19th Century.  

 

I think the marriage prohibition had a lot more to do with passing on assets to heirs rather than an ex spouse.

No marriage, in theory, no heirs.

Of course a number of dead popes had "nephews," but that is a different story.

 

[Marv's Neighbor]

12 hours ago, ALF said:

 

That's the price of training priests , it's not a profit making deal. I agree it should be closed due to past accusations of abuse there.

 

Fr Gatto was my pastor here in Lockport 

 

OK. since you still live in WNY, you are closer to that situation than I am.  But generally, if ALL abuse was reported, across society, the Catholic aspect would disappear.

[RochesterRob]

9 minutes ago, Marv's Neighbor said:

OK. since you still live in WNY, you are closer to that situation than I am.  But generally, if ALL abuse was reported, across society, the Catholic aspect would disappear.

  I think part of it is the outrage that there is a higher level of trust involved with a priest.  However, that is not the way I look at it.  I use the same standard whether it be priest, coach, or troop leader.  I don't use a lower standard and shrug my shoulders if I find out the basketball coach screwed up and diddled several boys over a few year period.  Also, religion has more burden in terms of proving its purity as there is not the captive factor like there is with a school district.  We live in a time where if we do not like going to church to be lectured about our lives we simply do not go.  There is no such thing as forced attendance in this day and age.  No such option exists for school unless you can home educate.  Then there is the peer factor such as it is with scouting.  If a kid's friends all belong to the scouts then the kid will be after the parents to let the kid join the same organization.  

[Marv's Neighbor]

My point is simply unfair/uneven reporting of abuse.

 

While you may not use a lower standard, the fact that abuse often goes unnoticed unless/until it involves a specific area of our society, makes it proportionately unfair. 

 

A person's religious preference is a personal choice and it often only is what the individual chooses to make it.  I'm not aware of any forced attendance but often people need to face up to what may be perceived as unpleasant aspects of their own lives in order to be able to make positive change. 

[row_33]

15 hours ago, SDS said:

Thanks. That’s what I was hoping you were going to say.

 

As a former Catholic... ***** them. Personally, I don’t see how anybody could remain in that church. I don’t have enough cognitive dissonance  to separate what that entire institution did to kids, the resulting cover up and their current insistence that they could possibly assert any moral superiority or give moral guidance ever again. 

 

a commitment to protecting the weakest and most vulnerable of its flock has to be a top priority for any religion

 

 

[\GoBillsInDallas/]

15 hours ago, Marv's Neighbor said:

This is a society problem.

 

Agreed. Look at what we're going through with Harvey Weinstein right now.

[RochesterRob]

19 minutes ago, Marv's Neighbor said:

My point is simply unfair/uneven reporting of abuse.

 

While you may not use a lower standard, the fact that abuse often goes unnoticed unless/until it involves a specific area of our society, makes it proportionately unfair. 

 

A person's religious preference is a personal choice and it often only is what the individual chooses to make it.  I'm not aware of any forced attendance but often people need to face up to what may be perceived as unpleasant aspects of their own lives in order to be able to make positive change. 

  Forced attendance was more an issue of the past but even today there are examples such as a kid is required to go with parents to church even if the kid has no desire to do so.  I agree that the emphasis is uneven.  A lot of the problem with the Catholic Church is that up until recently it had deep pockets at least in the US so at some point it was going to be a magnet for trial lawyers.  

Edited February 5, 2020 by RochesterRob

[teef]

16 hours ago, SDS said:

Thanks. That’s what I was hoping you were going to say.

 

As a former Catholic... ***** them. Personally, I don’t see how anybody could remain in that church. I don’t have enough cognitive dissonance  to separate what that entire institution did to kids, the resulting cover up and their current insistence that they could possibly assert any moral superiority or give moral guidance ever again. 

this is exactly where i'm at with it.  as someone who went to 16 years of catholic schooling and even has an uncle that's a priest, i'm done.  i just can't over look the deception and lying.  they took advantage of kids and allowed it to continue, yet they want to guide me through my spiritual life?  no ***** way.

 

there is a branch of the catholic church that has broken away in this area.  think if it as a uber liberal form of catholicism.  they allow women priests, allow anyone to receive communion, and even married my aunt and her partner in front of the entire congregation.  they had standing applause after.  as someone with multiple gay family members, and a wife that isn't catholic, it's worked for us, (not that i go often...at all).

14 hours ago, Gray Beard said:

Allowing priests to be married would be the best thing they could do. I think that many priests are hiding something.  Sexual, alcohol, or other problems.  If priests were allowed to be married, a larger pool of candidates would become available, and the ones with problems could be weeded out without fear of reducing the ranks as much. 

agreed.  i think that years ago, many went into the priesthood to hide something about themselves.  it's sad.

[NoHuddleKelly12]

16 hours ago, SDS said:

there’s a difference between a belief in a higher power and organized religion. I have come to terms with that. 

Very true. The message itself is (and always has been) separate from those fallible humans who would corrupt, manipulate and misuse in its name throughout history. The Reformation origins culminating in Luther’s 95 theses posting shows this is nothing new. 

[\GoBillsInDallas/]

1 hour ago, teef said:

i just can't over look the deception and lying.

 

You should check out our PPP board. 

[Seasons1992]

17 hours ago, ALF said:

 

I'm nearing the end and just don't know what to think any more about religion . 

 

I'm agnostic. Religion is a personal choice and I respect whatever option you or anyone else chooses.

2 hours ago, Marv's Neighbor said:

  I'm not aware of any forced attendance 

 

[WhoTom]

3 hours ago, row_33 said:

a commitment to protecting the weakest and most vulnerable of its flock has to be a top priority for any religion

 

In theory, yes.

In practice, not so much.

 

2 hours ago, teef said:

there is a branch of the catholic church that has broken away in this area.  think if it as a uber liberal form of catholicism.  they allow women priests, allow anyone to receive communion, and even married my aunt and her partner in front of the entire congregation.  they had standing applause after.  as someone with multiple gay family members, and a wife that isn't catholic, it's worked for us, (not that i go often...at all).

 

Isn't that Lutheranism? (AKA "Catholic Lite")

 

 

 

[row_33]

2 minutes ago, WhoTom said:

 

In theory, yes.

In practice, not so much.

 

 

most do

 

some historically haven't given a darn about protecting their children, amazing how people still commit themselves to certain denominations, if they think about it at all... 

 

Edited February 5, 2020 by row_33